A&H Zed R16 Firewire Mixer

[perversity]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

I'm interested to know the reasons for not buying something on account of where it's assembled.
Kind regards,
Mike.

If you look at your previous post, you've answered your own question. You're saying the ZED will be made at a factory that is subcontracted. A factory where other "name brand" products are also being manufactured. It's very hard for me to believe that this is the same as producing something in your own factory.

[perversity]

I'm curious as to were your job is located, are you working out of the U.K.? If so, do you feel that a lower-payed sales-rep from China could handle your job as good as you, while saving your company a lot of money in wages, benefits, and the like?

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by perversity

I'm curious as to were your job is located, are you working out of the U.K.? If so, do you feel that a lower-payed sales-rep from China could handle your job as good as you, while saving your company a lot of money in wages, benefits, and the like?

this is sounding more like a political or moral debate point... if A&H were able to easily produce these boards for the same price point in the UK, i'm sure that they would. they need to be competitive, and IMO there wouldn't be half as much interest in a 24-ch Zed board costing thou$ands more just because it was made in the UK.

if they are confident that the quality of the products will not suffer being produced in China, I'm not going to take issue with it.

I'm pretty set on buying the Zed16 in the near future, but would probably upgrade to the Zed24 at a later date if it has analog subs and more FX sends/returns.

[Rednose]

There doesn't seem to be a phase reversal switch on this???
I was excited about the board until I noticed that.
Doesn't seem like a major upgrade from my Mix Wizzard without it.

What about studios that want to track Snare Top/Bottom and Bass DI/Amp?
I have to use my outboard pres with a phase switch to do that now.
I'm not interested in buying adaptors, I need a phase switch!

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by Rednose

There doesn't seem to be a phase reversal switch on this???
I was excited about the board until I noticed that.
Doesn't seem like a major upgrade from my Mix Wizzard without it.

What about studios that want to track Snare Top/Bottom and Bass DI/Amp?
I have to use my outboard pres with a phase switch to do that now.
I'm not interested in buying adaptors, I need a phase switch!

every DAW can phase invert a signal

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

every DAW can phase invert a signal

What would the reason be for Yamaha to put a phase switch on my n12 mixer? I don't know but there must some pro/con to this.

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by soundrage

What would the reason be for Yamaha to put a phase switch on my n12 mixer? I don't know but there must some pro/con to this.

It's more convenient to have the switch on the board. But if you are trying to pack a lot of functionality in a smaller footprint, as A&H are, you have to make compromises. The phase reversal function is very easy in any DAW software, so that's an easy one to work with during recording setup.

The n12 is nice, but has plenty left off that makes you scratch your head. Neither of these boards are full-featured boards.

[Rednose]

I know that every DAW has a phase switch, but I'd rather handle it prior to tracking. Alot of the pros I've talked with said its best to handle phase relevance at the starting point.

[jeronimo]

WOW amazing what the pro´s know....

If you´re monitoring your signal "how the pros do", listening from DAW return, it just doesn´t matter...

Yes, it´s not perfect NOT having a phase switch... but it´s no big deal...

Yes, the YAMAHA has a phase switch... so waht? It doesn´t have analog EQ, has less sends, less channels, bla bla bla... what´s the point?

The A&H board is designed for the studio... that´s probably why they felt that leaving the phase switch out was no big deal...

Anyways....

[Joe_Scumbag]

I had an answer fromt A&H, I contacted A&H on the UK website 2 days ago. So a big shame to the dutch & belgian distributors, thumbs up for A&H UK.
Can I route the 8 adat channels and 18 firewire channels at the same time into the ZED?
In my DAW I can route the adat channels to a corresponding channel on the ZED but there's isn't audio from the adat coming into the zed.
============================================================
"Do you have ADAT enabled hardware (i.e. recorder)? If you do not, then the answer to this question is no and if so, you may have mistaken how the ADAT channels operate:
The 18 digital audio channels and 8 ADAT channels are available simultaneously (though at 44.1kHz & 48kHz samplerates only) via the FireWire connection. However, the additional ADAT channels are I/O busses, available for routing to an ADAT enabled hardware device. These channels cannot be routed directly from your DAW to the ZEDR 16 mono input channels for mixing.
I hope this helps. If you need any further information, please let us know."
grtz
J.S.

[jasongardner]

Just got the Zed in the studio and first impressions are excellent. The EQ is far better than anything i have heard at this price.
Gonna do some vocal work this weekend, would anybody be intrested in some audio samples. I was thinking of comparing the Zed Pre and Zed A/D with Neve pre and Rosetta A/D using a AKG C12 into mic splitter into above. Anybody intrested ?

[tubeydude]

absolutely I'm interested....

What DAW?
How are the drivers?
What latency are you getting?
How are the onboard midi controls?
How's the transport control?

I'd love to hear a pre-comparo.

Thanks,

[jasongardner]

Will be using Protools HD 7.4.2 Into a Digidesign 192 digital. Adat will be from both Rosetta and ZED. So we here can here the pres and A/D conversion and nothing else.
Will try and answer the other questions after i have used it for a session.

I Have done some tests on the control room section and it seems sweeter than the Presonus central station i have been using for the past 6 months. Maybe this thing does something to the sound, but i must say its 100% on the good side.

Monitors are Focal twins and NS10s

[jeronimo]

I´m also curious to hear....

[Rednose]

Originally Posted by jeronimo

WOW amazing what the pro´s know....

If you´re monitoring your signal "how the pros do", listening from DAW return, it just doesn´t matter...

Yes, it´s not perfect NOT having a phase switch... but it´s no big deal...

Yes, the YAMAHA has a phase switch... so waht? It doesn´t have analog EQ, has less sends, less channels, bla bla bla... what´s the point?

The A&H board is designed for the studio... that´s probably why they felt that leaving the phase switch out was no big deal...

Anyways....

Yeah, but the AH 32 channel board I had in my studio a few years back had the Phase switch on it. My mix wizzard, no phase switch.
Its just something I would want if I'm going to upgrade from the mix wizzard. Getting phase right is very important when I track live bands with mult mics.
Seems like a very nice board, and I'm very pro A&H, glad to see them focusing on the studio, I don't get out of here much.
Untill then, I use my API lunchbox's pres with Phase switch!

[henge]

Originally Posted by jasongardner

Will be using Protools HD 7.4.2 Into a Digidesign 192 digital. Adat will be from both Rosetta and ZED. So we here can here the pres and A/D conversion and nothing else.
Will try and answer the other questions after i have used it for a session.

I Have done some tests on the control room section and it seems sweeter than the Presonus central station i have been using for the past 6 months. Maybe this thing does something to the sound, but i must say its 100% on the good side.

Monitors are Focal twins and NS10s

Thank you so much for doing this. This comparison is what this thread needs.

[Joe_Scumbag]

Hi, yesterday I recorded acoustic guitar with the ZED. I tried both my UA Solo 610 and ZED pre amp. I'll try to post some clips tonight.


grtz
JS

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by perversity

I'm curious as to were your job is located, are you working out of the U.K.? If so, do you feel that a lower-payed sales-rep from China could handle your job as good as you, while saving your company a lot of money in wages, benefits, and the like?

Hi Perversity,
Yes, this is a moral and a business argument. I empathise with your feelings and agree that maunfacturing everything locally would be more ideal for local jobs, but from a business point of view, in order to compete we have absolutely no alternative but to use overseas manufacturing sub-contract as do most manufacturers of just about anything you buy these days. And I sometimes do wonder whether design facilities will go that way in the future, perhaps my alternative career in plumbing looms closer!
But the fact remains we have followed this path carefully, we have our own dedicated floor and production line at a very well set up facility who care well for their staff (there is a waiting list for production staff), and the quality of product from that factory is incredibly good.
So deciding not to buy on moral grounds to support local economy is one thing (although tricky if you're going to widen this to include other goods, and ironically it would just be adding another nail in the coffin for British industry), but you should have no reason to worry about quality of the product - it is excellent.
Kind regards,
Mike.

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by Rednose

There doesn't seem to be a phase reversal switch on this???
I was excited about the board until I noticed that.
Doesn't seem like a major upgrade from my Mix Wizzard without it.

What about studios that want to track Snare Top/Bottom and Bass DI/Amp?
I have to use my outboard pres with a phase switch to do that now.
I'm not interested in buying adaptors, I need a phase switch!

Hi Rednose,
Sorry about the phase switch - I literally ran out of room on the front panel. For a mixer of this size, the EQ takes up a lot of space on the channel strip, and that was the main priority.
As a workaround for recording, the MIDI switches can be programmed to operate the phase reverse on the input to the track in your DAW.
Admittedly, this is not as good as an actual switch for direct monitoring etc.
We need the bigger ZED-R!
Kind regards,
Mike.

[jasongardner]

I have a made in England ZED-16R and yes i would rather see this, than a made in China.
Its the same with any item , when you see made in Germany or Uk you feel you have a qaulity product.
But may i must say that the other ZED series desks that are made in China are very, very good.
Hopefully will post waves of zed versus apogee/neve by weekend.

[Benmrx]

Mike,

Just downloaded the manual to check this out. IMO this thing is really close to bridging the analog/digital world. REALLY close! I know this particular unit is marketed more towards the smaller project studio, but if you took this design a few steps further you could have a serious winner in the $15K range.

If you do decide to make a larger framed unit, IMO you should maybe do a 24 channel version which is the same as the current Zed-R, but with 8 more channels. Then do a 32 channel and maybe even 48 channel version with a few big upgrades and design changes and market it as a mixing console/controller instead of an "all-in-one" studio hub.

Here's my .02

1. More Simultanious analog inputs
2. 100mm Faders that have a "bypass" function for DAW stems
3. Recall!!!!!!!!!!!!! The first company to offer an analog mixer with recall for the masses will be rich IMO.
4. Automation. Even if it's just for certain push buttons like mutes and auxes, and runs off MTC.
5. More busses (12-16 in addition to the 2buss)
6. Armwrest!

If the cost of the design gets too crazy, the first things to cut IMO are the EQ's and Preamps. Again, just my opinion, but the real hole to be filled in the market is in regards to mixing. Give people the recall, routing and ergonomics they need, and let them use the preamps and EQ's they probably already have. If you managed to do all of the above and slid an empty 500 series slot in each channel, or maybe just for the 12-16 busses, you'de probably take over the marketplace.

[Saudade]

Originally Posted by Benmrx

Mike,

Just downloaded the manual to check this out. IMO this thing is really close to bridging the analog/digital world. REALLY close! I know this particular unit is marketed more towards the smaller project studio, but if you took this design a few steps further you could have a serious winner in the $15K range.

If you do decide to make a larger framed unit, IMO you should maybe do a 24 channel version which is the same as the current Zed-R, but with 8 more channels. Then do a 32 channel and maybe even 48 channel version with a few big upgrades and design changes and market it as a mixing console/controller instead of an "all-in-one" studio hub.

Here's my .02

1. More Simultanious analog inputs
2. 100mm Faders that have a "bypass" function for DAW stems
3. Recall!!!!!!!!!!!!! The first company to offer an analog mixer with recall for the masses will be rich IMO.
4. Automation. Even if it's just for certain push buttons like mutes and auxes, and runs off MTC.
5. More busses (12-16 in addition to the 2buss)
6. Armwrest!

If the cost of the design gets too crazy, the first things to cut IMO are the EQ's and Preamps. Again, just my opinion, but the real hole to be filled in the market is in regards to mixing. Give people the recall, routing and ergonomics they need, and let them use the preamps and EQ's they probably already have. If you managed to do all of the above and slid an empty 500 series slot in each channel, or maybe just for the 12-16 busses, you'de probably take over the marketplace.

Hmm...I don't think that would be the product positioning (dictating the design brief) of the Zed-R sequel.

If the sound quality and workflow is proven good, I think it fits a gaping hole in the serious project studio that needs a mixer that is dual-role capable (recording and mixing), good sound quality, just enough channels, relatively small footprint, and affordable WITHOUT cutting corners at the wrong places (like sound quality and build).

Hence my guess is:

- Zed-R would only go max. 24 channels. Larger frame sizes won't sell well because it is not needed by project studios, those needing more channels would probably be going for more "boutique" brands.

- 100mm faders won't be likely because Zed-R is targeted at DAW-analog mixer integration, and most DAW users will do the automation itb...

- REcall and basic automation: again can be done in DAW. Don't think they would (or should) spend the $ to include some half-manual recall schemes like those in the Neve 8816. Those who needs serious automation/recall on the board will be looking at bigger frames sizes and upmarket brands/digital consoles

- More busses: possible, will give more flexibility to integrate outboard.

All in all, I think Zed-R16 is designed and positioned brilliantly, cutting corners where there are viable workarounds and spending where it should to bring quality where it matters to the sub $5k analog consoles market. If I am starting a project studio to record bands NOW this product will be a no-brainer to me

Instead of buying 16 - 24 channels of mid-range preamps, decent AD/DA, then buy a few more pieces of gear to have talkback, cue monitoring, speaker switching and analog summing and integrate outboard during mixing, one can roughly spend the same total amount or slightly more to get one neat, good quality and well-built solution, moreover a centre piece of your studio that is compact but looks professional!

My wish for the 24 ch version: more Ad/Da channels via firewire, perhaps at 96khz. More sends/inserts/busses/routing options for outboard integration.


(i'm not affiliated to A&H in anyway)

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by Saudade

Hmm...I don't think that would be the product positioning (dictating the design brief) of the Zed-R sequel.

If the sound quality and workflow is proven good, I think it fits a gaping hole in the serious project studio that needs a mixer that is dual-role capable (recording and mixing), good sound quality, just enough channels, relatively small footprint, and affordable WITHOUT cutting corners at the wrong places (like sound quality and build).

Hence my guess is:

- Zed-R would only go max. 24 channels. Larger frame sizes won't sell well because it is not needed by project studios, those needing more channels would probably be going for more "boutique" brands.

- 100mm faders won't be likely because Zed-R is targeted at DAW-analog mixer integration, and most DAW users will do the automation itb...

- REcall and basic automation: again can be done in DAW. Don't think they would (or should) spend the $ to include some half-manual recall schemes like those in the Neve 8816. Those who needs serious automation/recall on the board will be looking at bigger frames sizes and upmarket brands/digital consoles

- More busses: possible, will give more flexibility to integrate outboard.

I hear ya on most of your points, and was the reason I suggested a 24 channel version of the Zed-R in it's current design. The only thing here is that when you start looking at the $15K range.....there really aren't any "boutique" mixers available. You pretty much have to jump all the way to $25-$30K. If you want recall you better up that amount another $10K at least. Then you also have to worry about maintenance, power, etc. The SSL Matrix comes in around $25K. Offers quite a few less features than the A+H, is also 16 channels, but has onboard recall.........and it says SSL. Something tells me A+H could pull it off for FAR less.

As far as doing fader moves in the DAW, that's one thing. But you can do ALOT with simple Mute and Aux on/off automation on an analog console you can't do ITB, unless you do ALL your summing in the box, in which case you probably aren't looking for a console for mixing duties.

Digital consoles.....no thankyou. Pretty much defeats the purpose IMO.

100mm faders, again for people looking to mix OTB.

IMO, the Zed-R already fills the gap you've described, and it's a great design. However, there's also a BIG (virtually untapped) hole in the market for mid-sized studios looking to mix OTB, on an analog console with recall.

Someone's gonna break that barrier, and there's no reason A+H couldn't do it as they already have a decent reputation regarding mixers. I could see them pulling it off alot easier than Mackie or Yamaha. It would be a slightly risky move to try and introduce a console in the $15K price range, but if it were done right they would clean house.

[AlienHealth]

Hi Benmrx & Saudade,
Thanks for your inspiring comments.
I think with a larger model we should be able to offer something that covers most requests. We used to have mute automation (from MIDI) on our ols GS3V and GS3000 recording mixers but I need to investigate whether a moving fader system can be slaved from the fader positions in a DAW using MIDI output from the computer. If so, it makes my life a lot easier, if not we need to write our own fader automation software (bigger job). Automation of the analogue controls such as EQ, sends etc is another level in cost & complexity though because the analogue circuitry has to be indirectly controlled and is notoriously expensive (also it doesn't perform as nicely).
I'm keen on designing a larger model in the ZED-R range, I like the idea of combining the traditional console element with modern computer based recording and physical controllers and anything that simplifies or speeds up workflow can potentially aid creativity (or just make life easier!)
Kind regards,
Mike.

[jonnathaniel]

nice

we're moving the right way

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

Hi Benmrx & Saudade,
Thanks for your inspiring comments.
I think with a larger model we should be able to offer something that covers most requests. We used to have mute automation (from MIDI) on our ols GS3V and GS3000 recording mixers but I need to investigate whether a moving fader system can be slaved from the fader positions in a DAW using MIDI output from the computer. If so, it makes my life a lot easier, if not we need to write our own fader automation software (bigger job). Automation of the analogue controls such as EQ, sends etc is another level in cost & complexity though because the analogue circuitry has to be indirectly controlled and is notoriously expensive (also it doesn't perform as nicely).
I'm keen on designing a larger model in the ZED-R range, I like the idea of combining the traditional console element with modern computer based recording and physical controllers and anything that simplifies or speeds up workflow can potentially aid creativity (or just make life easier!)
Kind regards,
Mike.

NICE! As far as onboard, analog console automation goes. IMO, you could get away with just a few switches. MUTE being the biggest. But also, even if you could automate aux send on/off switches, not their respective levels, just on/off switches. If that puts too much cost into it, maybe just the ability to mute the aux send masters. And/or the ability to automate insert on/off buttons or EQ on/off. If you could pull off an affordable moving fader automation system you'de be my hero, but I'm not holding my breath.

Again, great job on the Zed-R as is.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

Hi Benmrx & Saudade,
Thanks for your inspiring comments.
I think with a larger model we should be able to offer something that covers most requests. We used to have mute automation (from MIDI) on our ols GS3V and GS3000 recording mixers but I need to investigate whether a moving fader system can be slaved from the fader positions in a DAW using MIDI output from the computer. If so, it makes my life a lot easier, if not we need to write our own fader automation software (bigger job). Automation of the analogue controls such as EQ, sends etc is another level in cost & complexity though because the analogue circuitry has to be indirectly controlled and is notoriously expensive (also it doesn't perform as nicely).
I'm keen on designing a larger model in the ZED-R range, I like the idea of combining the traditional console element with modern computer based recording and physical controllers and anything that simplifies or speeds up workflow can potentially aid creativity (or just make life easier!)
Kind regards,
Mike.

Since I seem to be one of the few minority that would rather see a smaller frame, I'd like to interject a suggestion that would actually help both camps.... modular system.

1) Master Section
PCI-e x1 link to a computer which can either be a PCI-e x1 card for desktops, or an EXPRESSCARD for laptops. Routing, aux send/returns, digital I/O (AES and ADAT/SMUX), clock (word and SMPTE time code), motorized 100mm stereo master faders and 8 buss faders, which could also be configured for surround monitoring. DC power supply or run off of 12/24VDC battery power.

2) 8 channel expansion option
8 channel strips with mic pres, EQ, PFL, phase switch, routing, motorized 100mm faders, direct outs, inserts, DC power supply

3) 16 channel expansion option
8 stereo line inputs, no direct outs, otherwise identical to the 8 channel option, DC power supply

4) Master Section Meter Bridge
Master and buss output VU / PPM meters, time code or position display, etc...

5) Expansion Meter Bridge
16 VU / PPM meters that show either preamp levels + post fade or stereo channel levels.

That way, someone like me that is shopping for a cart based location rig can get a master section and 8 channel expander and still be able to fit it on a 20" wide sound cart. Studio based purchasers could build themselves a large format console. Home or project studios something in between.

[Joe_Scumbag]

Hi, I did a pre amp test between the A&H ZED R16 and my UA Solo 610. Thread is in the gear shoot out forum.

grtz
JS

[Rednose]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

Hi Rednose,
Sorry about the phase switch - I literally ran out of room on the front panel. For a mixer of this size, the EQ takes up a lot of space on the channel strip, and that was the main priority.
As a workaround for recording, the MIDI switches can be programmed to operate the phase reverse on the input to the track in your DAW.
Admittedly, this is not as good as an actual switch for direct monitoring etc.
We need the bigger ZED-R!
Kind regards,
Mike.

Thanks for understanding Mike!
I'm an A&H supporter, I'm on my second A&H board.
I wish I could have kept the 32 channel one I had with the phase switch, but It was lent to my studio for a year then shipped to Malibu.
I got the Mix Wizzard and I'm happy with it.
I will check into the Zed sometime next year.
Matt

[sparkyness]

Mine arrived last night via Tim from Studio Systems in Cornwall. I'm using it to replace a RME Fireface 400.

First impressions - Ran my Spector NS-2 and some drum tracks through this thing and loved the eq right off the bat. For lack of more acute terms - tight, rounded and defined are words that spring to mind. Tweaking the highs is especially nice and noticeably different over the plugin eq's I tend to use (UAD, Waves, etc).

Ran into a bit of a stumbling block with the drivers under XP64 (latest drivers installed). Major issues with dropouts even at higher latencies for both recording and playback. I'd get 15 seconds or so of audio before dropout. I had to reset the driver in Cubase (version 4.5) constantly. The Zed and XP64 basically didn't play nice. Of note, my Fireface runs without a hitch on the same system.

I then noticed that the A&H docs said that the unit wasn't tested under XP64 even though it is listed as supported (????) so tried on a clean XP32 partition. I then had no issues when I ran the same tests for 20 minutes or so - will resume testing this evening.

Overall I'm loving the sound of the unit. It simply sounds like I expect a console to sound. I'm a bit miffed re: the XP64 driver issues, but if it's rock-solid under XP32 that's a trade-off I'll reluctantly make as the thing sounds great.