A&H Zed R16 Firewire Mixer

[sirthought]

Somebody remind me....

Can you bypass the onboard pres with the inserts? Do you still have to deal with the gain on the board in that case?

[Ponyboy]

Just had another session with the zed...so a few more thoughts

The pre's can be bypassed by putting in no gain, and using your chosen gear? i did find the pre useful in pumping out some extra gain without getting in the way (oh so clean)...i do this on room mics and things


tried to test the converters again this time routing the output to inputs, and listening to the track...unfortunately hav'nt figured out a way to route the zed without the bloody desk making everything I put through it sound better

I've run a few multitrack recordings on this without issue, I'm really liking the clock, managed to sync some stubborn gear (my 9 yr old motu 2408 mk2!)

I had an old motu 2408 breakout which i ran on the spare adat in firewire mode, giving me 8 more i/o's, which i use running my software reverb tracks into the desk (to my ears it sounds better with a slight grain).

The issue of using other converters can be a problem, I tried connecting my rme adi to the post sends...was a decent workaround...but wouldn't say it was entirely worth it (thinking of selling the rme)...i'm getting over the converter thing, as I'm not surprised the sos review didn't mention it much...there are time's you forget all that conversions actually happening

one idea to incorporate other gear is to run aggregate soundcards in osx...I've done this by combining my tc konnekt 24d, works great

I'm not sold on the master inserts, although it may be the crappy compressor I'm using on the buss...oh yeah not having proper aux returns is a bummer...but I'm still lovin it

thinking of buying a m-audio profire to run this as a front end for pro tools

[surreyprod.]

urgh, goddamn it, this is almost making me change my decision!!!

In a way could you think of this as a unit that could be plugged in to a computer/mac via firewire, then mic up a whole band with the 16 pre's and record a kickarse record?

What i'm kinda getting at is is this a serious unit for a studio, or is the apogee ensemble a much more serious bit of kit to build a studio around?

what I have so far -

mac pro (etc)
2 414's, sm7b and an sm57,
adam a7's,

I'm just looking for a centrepiece really, in a project/semi serious studio, could this be it?

Goddamn it I hate decisions!

cheers.

[LSProductions]

There's several posts on the R-16 so I just picked this one. Like most, I seem to be torn about what the unit can do, but more importantly, what it can't do.

Motorized faders, no biggie,.. never had them anyway. I figure I could continue to automate withing cubase 4, and make small adjustments, as well as use the eq, pres, etc, to create hopefully a better mix with the analog portion of the Zed.

The only reason I started looking at this unit was because I will be needing to increase to 16 inputs in the near future, and the R-16 does this and then some.

I suppose my only real complaint (as long as the drivers are stable with cubase 4), would be the fact that if I choose to record at 88.2 ( which I sometimes do), I will loose the adats,.. which mean I can't use my Benchmark adc-1 to bring the signal back into the Zed. I also monitor with a Benchmark dac-1, and I'm not sure if that will work at 88.2 either. Oh and by the way, what's the deal with loosing the L/R out? I don't get it?

I'm sure there's much more to this unit that I haven't learned about yet, but the lack of higher sample rate/adat recording does bug be.

On the other hand, I have done some recent a/b comparisons with lower end converters,and I'm pretty sure I couldn't pick the better sounding one ten out of ten times. Converters have indeed come a long way.

So, to that end, I could sell my adc-1 and free up a grand or so towards the Zed, and wind up with WAY better sounding finished products just using the Zed's JETPLL conversion, which is supposed to be pretty darn good. But I REALLY like my adc-1 ! arrgg!

No way to test that scenario for sure, so I'll just have to wait and see if others continue to find it worthwhile.

Remember, I could go with, for example, a presonus digi "whatever" interface, and a digi "whatever" 8 channel pre, AND have all the dig ins and outs I would ever need,... for less money,.. yet without analog eq, faders, possibly better pres, etc.

hmmm , what to do?

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by LSProductions

(as long as the drivers are stable with cubase 4)

Remember that they've designed this to work with Sonar. A&H probably won't comment on how well it works with Cubase. It might be helpful if some of the people who have already bought the board could see if DAWs other than Sonar seem stable. This would especially be helpful since Sonar is PC only and many folks here likely use Apple.

Originally Posted by LSProductions

...if I choose to record at 88.2 ( which I sometimes do), I will loose the adats,.. which mean I can't use my Benchmark adc-1 to bring the signal back into the Zed. I also monitor with a Benchmark dac-1, and I'm not sure if that will work at 88.2 either. Oh and by the way, what's the deal with loosing the L/R out? I don't get it?

Curious why would you want to bring in the Benchmark units in with the R16? It already has converters and a monitoring section built in. The fewer times you have to convert the signal the better, so I'd look towards using what's on the board b/c I don't know that you can bypass the built-in converters.

But that being said, I think it was previously posted in here that you can use that ADAT to communicate with the DAC at 88.2...just go into a software control panel to set the rate. Maybe I misunderstood that?

[surreyprod.]

That's a very good point raised there, actually.

I wonder how this would fare with Logic Users, if it runs like a dog then there's no point? dfegad

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by sirthought

Remember that they've designed this to work with Sonar.

i highly doubt that it was designed for Sonar. a lot of interfaces come with a DAW for people who are just getting into recording - it would be a lot more well publicized if this was meant to be a major partnership a la Apogee/Apple. also, Sonar is owned by Roland and they have their own competing products to flog

Originally Posted by sirthought

Curious why would you want to bring in the Benchmark units in with the R16? It already has converters and a monitoring section built in. The fewer times you have to convert the signal the better, so I'd look towards using what's on the board b/c I don't know that you can bypass the built-in converters.

using the Benchmark would not add any additional A/D stages -- he would be taking the analog outs from the R16 into his Benchmark... the only thing he would be adding to the signal chain would be from the cables from the R16 to the Benchmark

i've never heard Benchmark converters but they are high-end, mastering-quality converters, so there is little doubt that they will sound better than the R16's... if i owned an ADC1, i would certainly prefer to mix down into that as well

Originally Posted by sirthought

But that being said, I think it was previously posted in here that you can use that ADAT to communicate with the DAC at 88.2...just go into a software control panel to set the rate. Maybe I misunderstood that?

you misunderstood -- once you go above 48, you lose all of the ADAT connections. you also lose the stereo mix A/D, so if he wants to record at 88.2, he doesn't have the option of using the R16's A/D for the stereo mixdown anyways... so since his mix is going out of the R16's analog outs anyways, he has to use another A/D to record the mix.

perhaps the best option would be to buy another cheap audio interface with ADAT, and use that with the Benchmark for your stereo mix. either use aggragate devices if on the same computer, or maybe even buy a cheap older computer dedicated to recording mixdown...?

[jonnathaniel]

Originally Posted by Trance183

. And that the 4 Midi Dedicated Faders can double as GROUP SUBS for live grouping so that helps.

sry, can you explain that?

as far as I know there are no subgroup outputs, no 1-2, 2-3 assigns except the LR, and there is definately no VCA subgroups. You see, grups are actually summing busses, well sometimes they're not and then they're called VCA grops that only control the volume without summing. In R16 the four midi faders can probably be assigned to act as group faders in your DAW but thats about it.

And some other thing - people are saying inacurate statements on this board not knowing that this might affect someones opinion or buying decisions, thats not cooltutt

please inform yourselves before posting and/or read the manual

ZED SERIES :: ALLEN & HEATH

[AlienHealth]

Hi All. Mike G here from A&H.

Sorry for our absence from this thread for some time, I'd like to answer some of the questions if I can.

ADC/DAC quality:
The channel ADC's are the CS5368 from Cirrus. They are 114dB dynamic range (A wtd) -105dB THD+n 8 channel versions of the ones we use in our acclaimed iLive digital live system.
The channel DAC's are the PCM4104 from TI. They are 118dB D/R -100dB THD+n. The digital conversion performance matches closely that of the analogue mix so that there is no degradation from either domain.
The Master LR digital conversion is handled by a stereo CODEC.

ADAT:
The sample rate options for ADAT mode are 44.1 or 48kHz. (the optical connectors are limited to 4ch at S/Rs over 48kHz).
In FireWire mode 8ch's of ADAT in & 8 out are available in addition to the 18 + 18 FireWire channels at S/Rs of 44.1 & 48kHz which are routed to & from using your application/DAW. Think 8+8 ADAT I/O expander accessible from the DAW.
It is possible to sync the FireWire clocks to an external clock using the ADAT input and selection in the driver control panel. The DICE JetPLL will ensure low jitter from the incoming clock.

Audio Subgroups:
The ZED-R16 was designed to be as flexible as possible and to fit varied work methods. The configuration switches are placed where the group routing switches would normally be so space is an issue. I added the 4 dedicated MIDI faders so at least you can use them to control virtual groups in the DAW, (which has the advantage of lower mix noise). A larger format ZED-R would have at least 4 analogue subgroups.

Made in England/China:
The ZED-R16 is currently made here in Cornwall, UK, but will production will inevitably move to China. We closely control our China production, using the same design & components, often suppliers; build is no different - it's just a different production line.

General comments:
Thanks for your interest and comments. I'm glad to hear that you like the pre-amps & eq a lot (I could go on a lot about these!).
ZED-R16 was conceived to put the mixer back into the small studio - being a high quality analogue front end & powerful eq, multi-channel digital I/O, DAW controller, CRM & studio monitoring controller, analogue summing device, all rolled into one product. And we think it makes a nice centrepiece too!

We're working on more support information - MIDI templates, system configuration with different DAWs etc. It's worth checking our website for new info, we'll try to keep a regular eye on threads like this one.

Many thanks,

Mike G.
R&D
Allen & Heath.

[perversity]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

Hi All. Mike G here from A&H.


Made in England/China:
The ZED-R16 is currently made here in Cornwall, UK, but will production will inevitably move to China. We closely control our China production, using the same design & components, often suppliers; build is no different - it's just a different production line.


Mike G.
R&D
Allen & Heath.

Reason enough for me to lose interest

[jeronimo]

Originally Posted by perversity

Reason enough for me to lose interest

wierd....

[sirthought]

Thanks for clearing up some of those questions Mike G. This thing seems great.

I would be very interested to see more on templates created for specific DAWs.

Once nice thing about Yamaha's n12 is that they've got ready-made templates for Cubase that set up all of the various software routing for you. A huge time-saver, especially if you don't really know what you are doing.

[Trance183]

Originally Posted by jonnathaniel

sry, can you explain that?

as far as I know there are no subgroup outputs, no 1-2, 2-3 assigns except the LR, and there is definately no VCA subgroups. You see, grups are actually summing busses, well sometimes they're not and then they're called VCA grops that only control the volume without summing. In R16 the four midi faders can probably be assigned to act as group faders in your DAW but thats about it.

And some other thing - people are saying inacurate statements on this board not knowing that this might affect someones opinion or buying decisions, thats not cooltutt

please inform yourselves before posting and/or read the manual

ZED SERIES :: ALLEN & HEATH

Big mistake yes and I didn't bother finding my mistake and fixing it. I do apoligize. Must have been a brief moment of confusion when I was comparing other consoles. But I tell you this. I just got my AWESOME R16 in yesterday and using my shitty laptop I easily made those 4 Midi Faders into SUBS. So there you go. As for a further review I will get back to you guys soon. But quick note: Sounds Amazing. Operation is flowing smoothly so far.

[Joe_Scumbag]

I don't know if this is the right place , but the manual for the ZED is really inadequate. I'm not an expert user, and I think that most people who're interested in the ZED, are mainly ITB-guys who's routigskills are mediocre. There's very little info about routing and DAW's. For example, I know there are 8 adat channels next to the 16 firewire, but how can I route these 8 adat channel to the ZED? I read on this forum, via software, but which software? The control panel? The DAW? In Cubase SX 3 I assign the adat channels to the corresponding ZED channel's (stereo 9 til 13), but I can't hear it and there's no audio (from the 8 adat) coming in the ZED. About the midi functions, I don't have clue how to set it up in cubase, If i press a midi button, I see that Cubase receives a midi signal, but that's it, nothing happens. So A&H, update and expand your manual and do it quick! In the end, the ZED rules, sound is very, very good, but - for the moment - customersupport is not uptodate... Furthermore, if you send an email to A&H with a couple of questions, not answering the tech question and telling people they have to contact their national distributor is a rather dubious stratey if the distributor seems unreachable by email or phone.

[soundrage]

Originally Posted by Joe_Scumbag

I don't know if this is the right place , but the manual for the ZED is really inadequate. I'm not an expert user, and I think that most people who're interested in the ZED, are mainly ITB-guys who's routigskills are mediocre. There's very little info about routing and DAW's. For example, I know there are 8 adat channels next to the 16 firewire, but how can I route these 8 adat channel to the ZED? I read on this forum, via software, but which software? The control panel? The DAW? In Cubase SX 3 I assign the adat channels to the corresponding ZED channel's (stereo 9 til 13), but I can't hear it and there's no audio (from the 8 adat) coming in the ZED. About the midi functions, I don't have clue how to set it up in cubase, If i press a midi button, I see that Cubase receives a midi signal, but that's it, nothing happens. So A&H, update and expand your manual and do it quick! In the end, the ZED rules, sound is very, very good, but - for the moment - customersupport is not uptodate... Furthermore, if you send an email to A&H with a couple of questions, not answering the tech question and telling people they have to contact their national distributor is a rather dubious stratey if the distributor seems unreachable by email or phone.

It's too bad they can't put up a user forum on their website. But they would need to get some of their people involved in it. I bought a Yamaha n12 last year and one of the things that helped a LOT was the long thread here at gearslutz. George from Yamaha has gone out of his way to help. Getting help is so important when making the decision to buy a product, and after you bought it.

Good luck, hopefully the A&H guys will get active on this thread.

[jonnathaniel]

I think this concept of a hybrid console is very smart and the way to go, nice and inovative design from A&H, but i'm waiting for a 24 ch. version with subgroups, aux returns and long throw faders. I think there should be a lot of potential user willing to pay a grand more for those.that would be niiice

[AlienHealth]

Regarding the manual:
I do take your point about the manual - and I'm updating it to include more information on our drivers & control panel, set-ups with different DAWs, and include more applications drawings with latency guides etc.
Also a better explanation of the ADAT I/O both with ZED-R16 set to ADAT mode and FireWire mode. I definitely agree this needs clarifying, maybe with a diagram.
However, many people have asked us how the MIDI mapping works with certain DAW's and we've tried to help (usually by purchasing the software, sussing it out and telling the customer), but really it should be the case that the DAW software manual or help file is the reference. The ZED-R16 outputs fixed MIDI messages from its 20 faders, 12 rotaries and 12 assignable buttons, (although you can set the MIDI channel). You can assign these messages to control parameters in your software, but the way this is done is dependent on the DAW software you choose.
I'll put the idea of a Forum to our Marketing department.
Cheers,
Mike.

[mokkinger]

Originally Posted by jonnathaniel

I think this concept of a hybrid console is very smart and the way to go, nice and inovative design from A&H, but i'm waiting for a 24 ch. version with subgroups, aux returns and long throw faders. I think there should be a lot of potential user willing to pay a grand more for those.that would be niiice

yes, this is what i will be doing as well... no real subgroups is what i miss the most, nor do I need midifaders, and 100mm faders would also be really nice.

well. hopefully they don´t f*** it up over there in china, i would feel a lot better have it built over here... if there would be an alternative that was actually built in europe i would definitely go for it!!!

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by jonnathaniel

I think this concept of a hybrid console is very smart and the way to go, nice and inovative design from A&H, but i'm waiting for a 24 ch. version with subgroups, aux returns and long throw faders. I think there should be a lot of potential user willing to pay a grand more for those.that would be niiice

+1 !

[Phaidon]

Hey Mike G. from A&H as you can see there is a lot of interest for a 24ch. version so any chance???
I know revealing any future plans might kill potential R16 sales but the fact is that a 24ch. version will be an even bigger success,for sure!

So bring it on pls!!!

[tsvisser]

I'm also interested in an 8ch version with an additional 8 AES inputs, word clock, DC power, and rack mountable. same price would be fine in my book. motorized faders would be nice. 8 aux outputs would be cool too, with metering and time code, LTC input.

[AlienHealth]

Yes we're looking at these possibilities (although I have to finish some other projects first).
I think a larger model would complement the ZED-R16 rather than restrict it because the ZED-R16 would be smaller, more portable and lower cost.
The design for ZED-R16 was developed from talking to people like you guys, as well as traditional recording mixer design experience, so if you have specific requests & ideas, please let me know!
Cheers,
Mike.

[awediohead]

Mike - thanks for the clarifications from me too.

While many folks are understandably eager to see a 24 channel version I'd personally be very interested in A&H exploring a more modular approach with just the analogue front end - these same pre-amps and EQ you're so obviously very proud of - into a 4 or 8 channel rack mountable unit.

This is simply because when I look at the R16 I lust for the mic pres and EQ - with very favourable comparisons already having been made to DAV electronics pres this is a no brainer! - but the FW, AD DA and control surface integration I already have covered with other bits of gear. More importantly to me, these "other bits of gear" are all individually upgradeable as and when, while the A&H analogue would be long term "keepers"!

The R16's "all in one" approach will doubtless be very attractive to many, and I sincerely hope it does very well for you, but for me it would represent something of a "side grade" in the digital domain simply to get hold of the decent quality analogue channels I really want. Sadly this means I have to look elsewhere right now . . .

just some thoughts!

[jonnathaniel]

I dissagree.

I like the ''whole package'' deal!

[jeronimo]

Me too... I like the whole console idea...

[jonnathaniel]

i hate the idea of having a ''modular studio'' with separate pres, eq's, comps', suming ''boxes''fader packs, converters etc. There has to be a centrepiece to which you can add and it has to be of a good quality, able to produce proffessional results - but first of all, we must have the knowledge to use those tools to produce proff.. results. It has to be ready to tackle different things - recording, live ect, it has to be portable. Zed R24 should do all of the above.R16 a bit limited. For esoteric stuff, look somewhere else and get ready to sell your kidney. thats my humble opinion

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by jonnathaniel

For esoteric stuff, look somewhere else and get ready to sell your kidney. thats my humble opinion

[gweto]

Originally Posted by perversity

Reason enough for me to lose interest

Agreed.

The board seems to be an ideal solution for what I need but this was a deal breaker for me unless I grab a unit before production is moved.

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by gweto

Agreed.

The board seems to be an ideal solution for what I need but this was a deal breaker for me unless I grab a unit before production is moved.

Hi Guys,
I could possibly understand your reasoning if the product was made by an offshore contractor who was given freedom to save cost wherever they wanted, but it's not like that in our subcontract factory. All the components are the same type and manufaturer (apart from the front & base panels), the production process is carried out by a higher number of very well trained assembly staff, and the test gear is supplied by us. The result is a product which is exactly the same in terms of component parts and testing as a UK made unit, meticulously manufactured and immaculately presented. The only downside is that we are employing people elsewhere in the world rather than locally, but then we still make the larger & heavier mixers here.
So bearing in mind the facts that our subcontract facility is well managed, most of the electronic component parts are manufactured all around the world anyway, and more than a few other high end audio products from other manufacturers are made at the same factory, I'm interested to know the reasons for not buying something on account of where it's assembled.
Kind regards,
Mike.

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

I'm interested to know the reasons for not buying something on account of where it's assembled.
Kind regards,
Mike.

I guess it's the fact that people are still chewing up the "Made in China" thing.The same exact story happened in the 80's were pretty much everybody was moaning about the "Made in Japan" thing,until they finally got used to it!

On another note Mike,a GS3000 kinda re-issue would suit me fine and I think it would sell like botox in L.A.
It seems that things are comin full circle again...