A&H Zed R16 Firewire Mixer

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by Trance183

Good ole' local Guitar Center. They didn't have any of the ZED models on display or in stock.

But the receipt shows the ZEDR16 as $2,691.00 with tax included. Guys this thing has alot more to offer than the Yamaha series I compared it to.

Nice. That's a good price compared to what's advertised. Neither GC or MusiciansFriend.com even show the ZED R16 on their website. Maybe if you share which store you bought it at I could get the same deal. That extra money could buy some nice extras for the studio.

Which Yamaha series were you comparing it to? The N series or the O?
Since you mentioned that brand as a comparison, what would you say are the hanging points that would make someone get Yamaha over A&H?

[tsvisser]

without having touched the Allen & Heath Yet, compelling reasons for the Yamaha...

Metering

True digital routing. The R16 has ADAT, but you can't route ADAT to firewire or vice versa... its an A/B switch for one or the other, from what I understand

Digital expansion card for AES, MADI, MLAN, etc...

Motorized fader and automation

Surround panning and monitoring

If you count the DM-1000 as a contender (ok, much more expensive, but available on the used market for the same realm), add in even more digital expansion and also... LTC or MTC time code, pretty critical for video post production work. And its more portable to boot, since it is rackmountable.

BUT, the Yamahas are not analog mixers, they are digital. They are really not the same type of product as the R16 if that non-digital aspect is important to you. The R16 has the potential to be a leg up on the MIDI / DAW control capabilities depending on the exact implementation, although the Yamahas have some capability there too.

[Joe_Scumbag]

Hi, I just ordered the allen&heath zed r16. Right now I'm mixing ITB, I'm planning to use the R16 as a mini mixing console. I have a RME Multiface and a UA SOLO 610 pre amp. I'll post some clips with a comparison between the converters from the R16 and RME MF, and A&H Pre's and UA.

grtz
JS

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by Joe_Scumbag

Hi, I just ordered the allen&heath zed r16. Right now I'm mixing ITB, I'm planning to use the R16 as a mini mixing console. I have a RME Multiface and a UA SOLO 610 pre amp. I'll post some clips with a comparison between the converters from the R16 and RME MF, and A&H Pre's and UA.

grtz
JS

Joe - that would be extremely welcome, looking forward to hearing them!

[perversity]

Can someone tell me for sure where this thing is made? $2700 is way too high for something that's made in China.

[Chrisc_o]

Originally Posted by perversity

$2700 is way too high for something that's made in China.

Ummm, I am sure that there are many products made in China that have a feature set and performance specs worthy of that kind of price tag.

[tubeydude]

FWIW,

I think I remember hearing one of the A&H guys saying that they are made in England.

A picture I saw of the back also seems to support this. It's really fuzzy, but it sure looks like "made in England."

[Trance183]

Well I kinda made a bias statement previously. But I meant to say the R16 offers alot more (for me) than the N series.

I believe it was the N series that almost compares to the R16. But one thing that really wins me over is the pure Analog Circuitry rather than digital. That alone made me wet my pants. Also the ZED R16 has more inputs/outputs which helps (me) keep an almost permanent setup for a small studio as far as inputs and outputs go. Especially if you plan on expanding a bit more in the future. I plan to use this mixer for home use. Then when I have to gig, unplug and go. I also like more Aux sends, and more stereo channels. More monitoring especially for my 3 room studio. Much wider range EQs. You can even run your digital sounds through analog to warm things up if needed. I love it.

Now the Yamaha is very smart indeed. Better metering which helps alot. Built-in effects which I never really been a fan of. Compression is also built in. But meh, I have my DBXs and eventually an SSL for that. Also another thing that I liked about the N12 was the Rear Outputs which makes it convenient. I also love that its built specifically for a digital setup which is how i'm currently set up. But this wouldn't double as a live gig console for me.

Now i'm not the pro as I mentioned earlier but I think I can justify spending the extra $1500 for future needs.

Do keep in mind the Yamaha is the machine I would have creamed my pants for about 2 years back. So those of you out there who don't need that much the Yamaha beats almost everything out there. I almost even want one just to have it. But nah I'm in the hole with all these new goodies I purchased with the R16.

[soundrage]

Trance,

Just as a note you can run two n12's and be out $2400.

[s o l v e n t]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

True digital routing. The R16 has ADAT, but you can't route ADAT to firewire or vice versa... its an A/B switch for one or the other, from what I understand

i think (& hope!) you are partly incorrect... from Sound on Sound:

"If you're working in Firewire mode at 44.1 or 48kHz, the ZED R16 appears in your DAW as an audio interface with 26 inputs and outputs (the eight ADAT ins and outs appear in your DAW alongside the mono channels and stereo L-R mix). When you connect via Firewire at 88.2 or 96kHz sample rates, the Main L-R feeds are lost, and the additional ADAT inputs and outputs are disabled."

[awediohead]

Yes - hence 26 I/O at up to 48kHz 16 +2 + 8 (ADAT)

Not sure what money's been saved by limiting the I/O in this way given they're all there at lower rates? I assume its a FW400 bandwidth limitation?? But then again I was pretty sure there were other mixers that did more than 16 channels at 24/96 . . . can anyone clarify?

I agree though that anyone who votes for an R16 with their $$ or ££'s will be mostly interested in its analogue capability / quality . . . on the digital and DAW interface side it is looking more like a "first generation" kinda deal the deeper I get into it with some strange decisions having been made that I hope will have evolved (ZED R24?) by the time I'm done with the rockwool, timber and plasterboard phase of my new studio!

[tsvisser]

I stand corrected, sorry for the misinformation.

It does look like a cool product, I just wish so many features weren't cut out. On one hand, I can appreciate it coming in at a price point that will give them serious numbers and economy of scale, but the gear snob side of me looks at what's missing and wish they made it a bit more expensive.

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

. . . but the gear snob side of me looks at what's missing and wish they made it a bit more expensive.

I agree, but I don't think it's snobbery, I genuinely think they made a mistake with their market research on this - not that they won't sell very well, but I think it could have been something of a classic with a slightly higher price point and features to match.

I don't have lots of cash to throw at gear, but I'm reasonably sure that the kinds of features most folks would have wanted to see implemented (as I've read on various forums, and I don't mean motorised faders!) wouldn't have put the per unit cost up by more than $500 retail, and personally I'd have very happily paid the extra.

When I look at a piece of gear like this I'm thinking in terms of working with it for 5 + years: spread over that time frame the extra cost is relatively very small.

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by awediohead

Yes - hence 26 I/O at up to 48kHz 16 +2 + 8 (ADAT)

Not sure what money's been saved by limiting the I/O in this way given they're all there at lower rates? I assume its a FW400 bandwidth limitation?? But then again I was pretty sure there were other mixers that did more than 16 channels at 24/96 . . . can anyone clarify?

My guess is that it is the bandwidth. Most people buying this kind of board would be fine at 48 if they needed the extra tracks. If you need to go to 88 or 96 with more than 16 tracks at once, then perhaps you should consider a bigger console. I don't know of one at this size. I assume once they get the drivers/jitter to work better with FW800 or until USB 3.0 is on it's feet, that's when we'll see a 24 channel version of this product.

I view this being targeted at the home/project studio audience and I've been looking at products developing for this use for about a year now. The ZED R16 is the first of it's kind. No other analog board in this size/form has it's feature set.

Mackie ONYX boards are analog recording up to 16 channels at 24/96, but you can't mix with it like with the ZED R16 and no ADAT expansion. Same deal with other A&H ZED that have USB built in.

For digital the Yamaha n12 is really the first of its kind, too. It's feature set with the transport and monitor room controls built in, the analog-style set up of "one-button-one-function", and higher-end pre-amps are a first for a digital board. The Yamaha O1V96V2 can be expanded up to 40 channels with lots of input options, automation, and DAW control. At the price of the ZED R16, I'd say this is it's closest competitor and the Yamaha probably should win on features and cheaper price.

You just have to decide whether you want analog or digital. The converters really could kill all of the analog advantage if they stink. I think if the midi section on the ZED R16 really helps with DAW control mixing OTB, then it's the winner. Otherwise, just get some nicer pres and work with another controler for your mix. But it does offer a ton of flexibility.

[Trance183]

Agreed. The R16 is not the best out there. But its pretty flexible and thats good enough for my real first studio.

[tubeydude]

Looks like Sweetwater has them in stock now...

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by sirthought

My guess is that it is the bandwidth. Most people buying this kind of board would be fine at 48 if they needed the extra tracks. If you need to go to 88 or 96 with more than 16 tracks at once, then perhaps you should consider a bigger console. I don't know of one at this size. I assume once they get the drivers/jitter to work better with FW800 or until USB 3.0 is on it's feet, that's when we'll see a 24 channel version of this product.
. . . .

Check out the Lynx LT-FW though - Lynx LT-FW

The LT-FW is a FireWire LSlot interface for the Lynx Aurora 8 and Aurora 16 A/D D/A converters. LT-FW is a FireWire 400 interface that allows up to 32 channels of analog and digital input and output at sample rates up to 96 kHz. At 192 kHz the user can access 16 channels of analog and digital I/O.

So FW 400 can handle 32 channels of AD DA at 96kHz and is only limited to 16 at 192kHz. . . . I think I must have stumbled across this or something similar months back and forgotten it because its always struck me as odd that the R16 is so absolutely limited to 16 they cut the main mix L R at 96kHz as well as the ADAT.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding something- wouldn't be the first time!

[sirthought]

Yeah, I think RME FF800 can do better than 16 too, but they aren't boards like this. I don't know what the difference is. Maybe it's the converters?

I wonder if it's a difference that the one product is an all-in-one board. I'm just seeing that between the Mackie, Yamaha N, and ZED R16 they all have that same basic limitation. I guess you smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

I don't really see it as a limitation. People have been making good recordings below 96 for a long time. I'm more worried about things like how easy is it to get headphone mixes out to everyone recording and can I get the midi section to interact with the DAW they way I want.

[tubeydude]

So does anyone have one of these in their hands yet?

Well.....?????

[Joe_Scumbag]

Originally Posted by tubeydude

So does anyone have one of these in their hands yet?

Well.....?????

Yes, mine arrived today in my local musicstore in Belgium. Paid 1870 euro's for it. I think it's a very good price. But I worked there for more than 4 years, so they always give me good prices. Can't test it yet though, i'm still waiting on my PCI to firewire card.

Grtz
J.S.

[FeatheredSerpent]

I've read through this and I'm still a bit unsure about the routing options for the adat ports..?
I read the manual, wasn't very clear on the subject either.

They're stating 18 firewire and 8 adat of simultaneous I/O, but I can't see how you map the adat channels to the desk itself for control.

Does it work in-line style so adat signals can be doubled up on firewire channels during mixdown? But there's no switches to suggest that.

And where can you source the extra adat outputs from? Aux sends?

I don't understand

[Ponyboy]

Hi guys...been reading this thread until I lost patience...went out and bought this board which I've had for a few weeks now (used it on a project just last night). Just wanted to share a few thoughts

converters:

I own a tc konnekt and a RME adi-2, which i use as my main converters. I did a quick check comparing converters (not scientifically)_, by listening to a few in itunes, whilst toggling between the converters/soundcards in OSX preferences.

the converters for the zed are noticeably better then the konnekt, which is no slouch in itself. Interestingly the DICE 2 chip is shared between the zed and the konnekt, which helped when syncing these two units (although no luck when my mac book was in bootcamp...the pc drivers really suck!). In terms of driver stability, the other drivers crashed during my toggling, leaving the zed the only one standing...the minimal approach to drivers was an inspired decision, but I digress

Compared to the RME, the differences where slightly noticeable, with the RME appearing to have a wider stereo image, and a slightly more rounded high end (although not a screaming difference). At first thought I tended to like the more open RME sound, although not something to die in a ditch over

Overall I'd rate the DA stage as excellent, as the difference to the RME ADI not being significant in my mind

the AD stage has given me some doubts, as I've noticed when i use the analogue eq as a 'plug in' (ie sent post and returned pre eq simultaneously) on each channel, the sound suffers somewhat (hence my preference to keep it out of the box). The final journey back into the box once summed has been good, but I think I can get better results using the adi

Preamps

The true surprise of this package...I expected good from the literature, but I didn't expect the pre's to be comparable to my RNP's, with similar gain, and noise levels (and you get 16!). The pre's aren't too bad even against my Sebatron Proxima (although the seb does show it's class with more harmonic detail and presence). Interesting I found the Zed's pres being CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN! (moreso then the RNP), I do like my color but can appreciate this as a baseline for the desk...I trust these pre's

EQ

Love it, I've traditionally used software over the past few years, as Sonalksis Eq's have been my staple (do like colour, but this is a workhorse)...I hav'nt made a one on one comparison, but the combination of real analogue eq and summing has seen me ease off the software (the mix I did for a tvc last night was entirely analogue)

MIDI control

I'm a big BFD user, as assigning the 4 midi controls to the mini mixer makes the mixer feel more like a 20 track mixer, with the additional knods controlling the dynamics o the kit peices (pleased to my knee's). Unfortunately the lack of assignability of cc's internally, and the lack of templates (for LOGIC Allen and Heath I beg of you!) is perhaps my biggest beef...you really are reliant on the learning tools of you sequencer (logic is killing me in this regard). I had a behringer bcf2000, and the option to run it in mackie control was a godsend


Build

Never thought I'd ever be so proud of anything with 'made in England' on it...it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling Built like a tank, feels like a real console (albeit much smaller then a ssl), hope it's more reliable then my dad's Triumph TR4! It's heavy though, nearly dropped it on an unsuspecting woman whilst carrying it on the tram from the store....

Final thoughts

the whole is greater then the sum of all parts with the zed r16, sure there are better converters, perhaps pre's and eq...but the fact I don't have to patch between my existing front end and soundcards really improve the the sound. The improvement in sound brought from otb summing offsets the converter issue (don;t get me wrong, there's no issue), and the quick set up times is a miracle. Generally my workflow is faster now after only using it for two weeks, I enjoy mixing again...and I don't have to look at a computer screen (yep using my ears...not me eyes!)

stella product (so much so I joined gearslutz to tell!)

[sirthought]

Thanks for the testimonial, Ponyboy. Stay gold, Ponyboy. Stay gold.



Wondering if any A&H people could jump in? We haven't heard from any of them in a long time. I'm wondering if there will be any add-on metering unit?

[UnMix Studio]

Finally, a user's review. Thanks PonyBoy.

I wanted to get this but gave up cause of the lack of feedback from A&H, or some users feedback.
Maybe I'll get one when they release a 24-track version.

[tubeydude]

Yes, thanks for the review. I am sure encouraged.

Did you try any multi track recordings? Is so, how many tracks at once? Any misbehavior?

What was the latency like?

Does it sound different when tracking with EQ enabled vs. doing a "plug in" EQ after the track has been recorded?

Thanks again!

[skygod]

Originally Posted by SidGuatama

I agree with you 100%, and if I were intending to use the ZED as a control surface, your points would be a major concern. But like I said, I can physically write the automation with the DAW and then use the channel faders on the ZED as a trim for the envelope as a whole. This exactly how I already work in REAPER. Quite frankly, I don't see how this is much different from any other analog console without motorized faders used for OTB summing and mixing...

Right!!! This IS exactly HOW, or rather one very good way among a few clever other ways to use an analog mixer with USB or FW capability that has non-motorized faders, like for example incorporating an adjunct device such as a very high end WKID or Euphonics MC Pro or the SSL or DIGI $25K, or cost effective solutions like the Mackie pro controller line, Steinberg’s upcoming cc121usb, or a Presonus' whatever du jour etc.

Another option of course is to go the USB route that is even cheaper, and use a main I/O device such as a TASCAM US-1641 as the HUB, and use the six inputs on the rear as two channel live mixes coming in from three separate ZED-14s w/o the USB connectivity of the ZEDs themselves to the laptop.

The mixers are huge bang for the buck. You kidding me? Plus you still have 8 XLRs on the front of the 1641. A Very stable I/O device, in conjunction with a 36 channel Allen and Heath front end? You kidding Me? Fuggedaboudit!

I even made this work on my business travel DELL E-1505 that has no FW as every body knows it after the fact who bought one, and with no solution in the cards from DELL who are in total denial that a problem even exists from their tech support shop in shithole armpit Bombay, or New Delhi, India, despite hundreds of complaints from users everywhere all over the planet ... it became my mission and obsession in life to make the fvvcking thing that was NOT designed for pro audio to work. And now it does! With 4GB RAM and a 7200 RPM 80GB drive, and disabling the audio driver, the 1641 becomes the audio driver, and disabling the Internet during operation. Absolutely marvelous glitch free drop-out free once the buffer sweet spots are found and set. Faster than FW any day.

This US 1641 I/O is the best kept secret on the market and I stumbled onto it by total accident at Sam Ash the other day that I went in to buy something else altogether non-related LOL . With the US1641 you get CUBASE LE4 with it that I installed and upgraded on line yesterday. Cool app, not as cool and elegant and meaty as Nuendo, but I'm digging it fat cats. Reaper is ok, but overhead intensive. Cubase rocks and looks and sounds a lot sexier than Reaper! Nolo contendre ...

Either or (FW or USB) -- you get the best of both worlds analog front end and digital side chain without breaking the bank. I never understood this market mania with moving faders beyond fat-bastard laziness despite writing to the DAW anyway via MIDI. I know recall right? Yeah MIDI and SMPTE are recallable formats as well.

I'm a long time user of A&H and have a very big mixer of theirs in my studio. The ZED Line is a great compact pro audio quality solution FW or USB in my office. I just get tired of re-spending good money after good money for shit that should have been invented two to three years ago already that I have to resell locally or on eBay to get riddance of. It's almost like this clueless airhead industry has no direction beyond hey WTF can we invent now and make more money milking the socialized home recording market reinventing what we already did in the analog world ever since the advent of B&W motion pictures anyway.

Yes fat cats, Fletcher calls it the democratization of pro audio. I call it the Proletariat Marxist Obamification Weather Underground ACORN Pro Audio Movement.... You gotta think out of the box and save money! These pro audio MFGs will milk you for all you've got. So stop bending over already.... but if you insist on the BOHICA because you enjoy that sort of thang ... have some balls and demand a reach-around dammit!!!

Superb work A&H. You finally got a clue after all these years and jumped back into the recording game running. FWIW my GL4800 rocks for recording. The Matrix is amazing for patching in outboard. Later -


nuff said

~skygod~

[surreyprod.]

Pardon me for having a bit of a blonde moment but...


...could this replace an apogee ensemble in a mac setup? I was originally gonna go for an ensemble with 4 mic setup, but would this be better with its 16 pre's, meaning more expandability?

cheers!

[tsvisser]

R16 has 16 built in mic pres with analog EQ and faders that are either analog or MIDI controllers.

Ensemble has 4 built in mic pres and 4 line inputs that could also be used with outboard mic pres, and an ADAT port that could give additional inputs for outboard mic pres, for a total of 16 total inputs.

Based on initial reports and a very small sampling, R16 probably does not have the same quality of conversion as the Ensemble and as far as Mic pre quality, that is probably dependent upon what you are recording and pre flavor preference. Any absolute quality judgments are still conjecture, but it makes sense that the R16 at its price and quantity of inputs, would likely have to sacrifice quality somewhere.

They are different products, but both at the top of their game.

If you need lots of mic inputs without spending a lot of money, are interested in doing analog summing, need a control surface, using mostly for a fixed installation at home or studio, the R16 looks unbeatable at its price point. It should be pointed out that someone mentioned MIDI templates for Logic are either absent or works in progress. You should be competent at programming or configuring MIDI yourself or expect some growing pains in getting it locked in for Logic at the present.

If you need a handful of high quality pres with top level conversion, mainly for tracking or you already own lots of outboard gear and either don't need a control surface or already have control surfaces, Ensemble is a powerful all-in-one interface for those that demand that level of quality at a very aggressive price point. It is also good for remote jobs where you need to record on location, can be special ordered as a DC power option where AC power is not available.

[surreyprod.]

that'll be the Ensemble then, cheers for the info!

I will probably get a control surface at another point, any suggestions whilst im here?

[Joe_Scumbag]

Hi, I bought my A&H zed R16 two days ago. My former setup was ITB with a RME Multiface. I did an analog mixdown today on the A&H and it's really exciting. The mix is definetly sounding more open and 3D, although I can't A/B it with the ITB mix because I remixed it on the A&H and took some different mixing decisions (thx to the different sound of the A&H). The EQ is really nice, I have 2x UAD with Neve, Pultec etc, Sonnox, Waves API & SSL, the A&H desk EQ is a nice addition. I must experiment more but the EQ sounds great using broad, gentle boosts. I did't try the pre's yet, but I'll try to check it against my UA Solo 610. It's not very fair since the UA is very coloured, but again, same as with the EQ, the pre's are probably a nice addition since they should be a lot cleaner. It's too soon to jump to conclusions, but it looks like the A&H will be a winner/keeper for me.
grtz
J.S.