A&H Zed R16 Firewire Mixer

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by stripey

Why are two of the auxes pre fader? Is there any sensible way to use these during mixdown or are the majority of people wishing they were all post fader, like me? This mixer would be all about recording if I bought one, no live gig use whatsoever.

All it needs is a switch to allow such dual functionality - I would hope to see such things covered in a "Mark II" - and if the design takes onboard even half the constructive feedback from this thread then it should be well worth waiting for IMO.

I wonder how close we are to an R16 MkII. Most of the wish list doesn't _seriously_ concern me, especially as I imagine it would push the price up by a couple of hundred quid, getting close to £2K - which is Toft ATB territory. Same goes for an R24 - that would surely have to be around £2K on account of the extra channels and new functionality people are calling for.

It might not push the price up too much given that there are other areas where savings could be made - fewer pre-amps for eg. Unlike some of the other guys who asked for a version with fewer mic pre's I do mostly acoustic recording, but I already have (and intend to get more) outboard mic pre's in various flavours and I don't really need 16 let alone 24 identical ones - not like I need to be able to record every channel on the desk to a separate track in my DAW.

Mike has already mentioned, and seems interested in, the possibility of making some features optional - and this could also keep the price down in the sense that people only buy what they need - and make their choices depending on budget and whether they'll be 100% in the studio or will be also using it live.

While I agree with LK that the R 16 MkII is merely speculation, it might not be too far behind the R24 given that in many ways it will hopefully just be an R24 with 8 fewer channels . . . the R&D already having been largely done on developing the R24.

Ever the optimist!!!

[stripey]

Honestly, I can't see A&H offering a smorgasbord of ZEDR~ desk options. This is not an economical way of manufacturing anything.

Even if they came out with three different desk options, experience tells me that there will still not be the perfect board - there will almost certainly be bits from every option that we'll wish were in the same desk. Like, option A is closest to what I want, but that thing from option B is really cool and I could definitely use that other thing from option C and man, if only they made an option D. Etc.

So then we're back to the R24, with every bell, whistle and shiney doohickey requested on this mammoth thread, which'll cost ya.

In the spirit of questing for perpetual improvement, however (and 'cos it's fun), gazing in to my crystal ball and looking at the photos of the R16, I predict that A&H will at the very least move the jacks to the back of a future unit, because pushing them over the edge immediately creates the space for 100mm faders if you drag everything else on the channels upwards. There - my twopenneth (no cents in the UK, see).

Personally, I can live with everything about the R16 RIGHT NOW , providing the four auxes can be soldered post fader.

Is it hard? Is it a good idea? Is it irreversible (hey, there's a word you don't hear every day, except in vasectomy clinics)?

A&H Mike - any advice, please?

[lovekrafty]

If there are versions of the R24 , it'll probably be static and automated fader options, I doubt pre's or no pre's will be an option.

Cheers
LK

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by stripey

Honestly, I can't see A&H offering a smorgasbord of ZEDR~ desk options. This is not an economical way of manufacturing anything.

I believe it was Mike himself who mentioned the possibility of "options" - I can't remember the context now or even whether it was discussing the R 16 or other Zed series desks. I agree you can't have TOO many optional extras - it would become a logistical nightmare for any company.

What I'm concerned about is that the R24 will be as similar to the current R16 as say the Zed 428 is to the Zed 420 with no significant re-design or additional features in response to feedback from this thread. THAT would be the economical route, and has clearly been the way A&H approached "families of desks" in the past. In my view it would also be short-sighted because I believe there are enough of us around who've learned the "buy cheap - buy twice" lesson and who won't mind digging a bit deeper to own a desk that isn't compromised. Obviously I believe the R16 is compromised or I wouldn't have sent mine back.

It's also a fact that when you get a design REALLY right (eg RME's FF800 -2004 I think?) then many years later you're still sitting there watching the money roll in from your original R&D investment. That's pretty good economics too - and this kind of thread just has to be a golden opportunity for anyone doing market research.

cheers

[lovekrafty]

Originally Posted by awediohead

I believe it was Mike himself who mentioned the possibility of "options" - I can't remember the context now or even whether it was discussing the R 16 or other Zed series desks. I agree you can't have TOO many optional extras - it would become a logistical nightmare for any company.

What I'm concerned about is that the R24 will be as similar to the current R16 as say the Zed 428 is to the Zed 420 with no significant re-design or additional features in response to feedback from this thread. THAT would be the economical route, and has clearly been the way A&H approached "families of desks" in the past. In my view it would also be short-sighted because I believe there are enough of us around who've learned the "buy cheap - buy twice" lesson and who won't mind digging a bit deeper to own a desk that isn't compromised. Obviously I believe the R16 is compromised or I wouldn't have sent mine back.

It's also a fact that when you get a design REALLY right (eg RME's FF800 -2004 I think?) then many years later you're still sitting there watching the money roll in from your original R&D investment. That's pretty good economics too - and this kind of thread just has to be a golden opportunity for anyone doing market research.

cheers

I can't think of many recommended features Mike did'nt address in the R24. You won't be dissapointed.

[stripey]

The release of the R24 itself would constitute an option, in terms of being higher spec than the R16. But I don't think there'll ever be multiple versions of either desk.

This I guarantee: A&H will release an R24 and gearslutz threads will immediately start with people complaining about it because it isn't exactly what they were hoping for.

I also think the R16 MKII is too far off (if it ever comes at all) for me to wait. I'd say another year, given that companies generally give a MKI product at least two years to prove itself in the marketplace. I think I'm probably better served getting an R16 now and living with its compromises.

Awediohead: could you remind me what you considered the compromises to be, from your point of view?

Although on the subject of compromise and digging deep, simple personal economics determines the degree of compromise we must endure. If money were no issue, we'd all be rocking Neves and SSLs and sub-£2K mixers would disappear overnight.

Fact is, design and manufacturing corners have to be cut to get products to a price point where Joe Homestudio (that's me) can afford them. So we're never going to get the perfect desk, free of design compromises, until either we're all millionaires or we build our own - neither of which is going to happen to me in the foreseeable future.

I recall an earlier post way, way back on this thread where someone wrote something along the lines of "just buy the desk and make that record". I think that's probably the best advice on the whole 28 pages so far, philosophically speaking.

No, the R16 is not perfect, but I don't think any product I've ever bought has been. My ULN-2 comes close, but it still has its compromises.

Honestly, I'm about ready to buy an R16, but I'd really like some advice on soldering those auxes

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by stripey

Awediohead: could you remind me what you considered the compromises to be, from your point of view?

There were a number of things, none of them enough on its own to cause me to question the wisdom of splashing £1600 on the R 16 - but in combination and without being under any real time pressure to have something *now* as opposed to some time in 2010, I felt it wiser to wait for the R24, even though it'll doubtless cost a good bit more.

FWIW and in no particular order:

1) It seemed crazy to me not to have a way of sending at least two of the four stereo channels directly down the firewire cable.
2) Lack of Mic/Line switch
3) Auxes pre fader without post/pre switch
4) Lack of Word Clock i/o
5) Lack of Solo
6) Inability to work at 24/96kHz with 16+2 LR + ADAT -> with the ADAT smux. It's either/or - a FF800 will do both, in fact all it's capable of via FW400. You only need FW800 when using two or more units, and it's 5+ years old. Not a deal-breaker but enough to make be appreciate what I already have!!
7) 60mm faders and them being unmotorised weren't hugely significant factors, but in their absence a more elegant "scene" recall would be good to be less dependent on visual feedback from the DAW. Something similar to the StudioLive perhaps - which also doesn't have motorised faders.
8) Lack of direct outs for all channels.
9) Probably a few other niggles I can't remember.

Again if there'd been no R24 on the horizon I would definitely have kept it. I'm just trying to make the best use of limited funds - spending even £1000 more for a desk that serves our needs indefinitely makes sense to me.
cheers

[stripey]

Thanks, Awe. I appreciate that.

FWIW, my take on your take would be that
1 and 2 don't bother me, even if it would be more convenient to have them;
3 does bother me (as the world now knows);
4 would undoubtedly be useful but the R16's WC is by all accounts pretty darn good;
5 I can work around with the existing PFL and/or Mute switches;
6 is - as I understand it - a limitation of ADAT, so can the R16 be directly blamed for this? If I upgraded my ULN-2 to 2d, I know that the ADAT card in that won't work above 48KHz for the one way I would actually use it (just one more reason why 2d is of virtually no interest to me);
7, yes 100mm faders would be dreamy;
8 doesn't bother me;
9 yes, I'd probably develop a few of my own, as with all my gear. Nothing I own is perfect.

Apologies for the really terrible way I've formatted my reply

[lovekrafty]

Originally Posted by awediohead

There were a number of things, none of them enough on its own to cause me to question the wisdom of splashing £1600 on the R 16 - but in combination and without being under any real time pressure to have something *now* as opposed to some time in 2010, I felt it wiser to wait for the R24, even though it'll doubtless cost a good bit more.

FWIW and in no particular order:

1) It seemed crazy to me not to have a way of sending at least two of the four stereo channels directly down the firewire cable.
2) Lack of Mic/Line switch
3) Auxes pre fader without post/pre switch
4) Lack of Word Clock i/o
5) Lack of Solo
6) Inability to work at 24/96kHz with 16+2 LR + ADAT -> with the ADAT smux. It's either/or - a FF800 will do both, in fact all it's capable of via FW400. You only need FW800 when using two or more units, and it's 5+ years old. Not a deal-breaker but enough to make be appreciate what I already have!!
7) 60mm faders and them being unmotorised weren't hugely significant factors, but in their absence a more elegant "scene" recall would be good to be less dependent on visual feedback from the DAW. Something similar to the StudioLive perhaps - which also doesn't have motorised faders.
8) Lack of direct outs for all channels.
9) Probably a few other niggles I can't remember.

Again if there'd been no R24 on the horizon I would definitely have kept it. I'm just trying to make the best use of limited funds - spending even £1000 more for a desk that serves our needs indefinitely makes sense to me.
cheers

With the exception of #6 ( not sure ) I'm pretty sure everything else has been addressed in the R24 design

[cybeross]

damn.... sounds mighty nice... I wonder a) when it comes out, and b) how much more expensive it will be. If you are right, looks to be a pretty sweet board...

[lovekrafty]

I don't know and I doubt Mike will let on until it's ready

[shootingsparks]

comments to some of the notes above..

it does have a solo feature, just labelled PFL.

Also with the channel inserts you can get direct outs (e.g. to record to tape), while simultaneously recording to FW.

The mixer has 2 pre and 2 post aux buses, that's not bad.

[jonnathaniel]

Allen&Heath marketing department should really check out what Presonus is doing with their StudioLive 16 ch. digital mixer. Altough they are different beasts, they're similar and in the same price range. Check youtube for Zed R-16 and StudioLive and you'll see what i mean. C'mon a&H!

[hey_mavis]

this might be a question I should already know the answer to, but if I were to ad an extra 8 inputs to the r16 via lightpipe with, say, a Focusrite octopre or a Presonus digi max, would the second interface sync via the lightpipe connection? or would it sync via firewire?

[lovekrafty]

Originally Posted by hey_mavis

this might be a question I should already know the answer to, but if I were to ad an extra 8 inputs to the r16 via lightpipe with, say, a Focusrite octopre or a Presonus digi max, would the second interface sync via the lightpipe connection? or would it sync via firewire?

It would sync via ADAT lightpipe not firewire

[hey_mavis]

Originally Posted by lovekrafty

It would sync via ADAT lightpipe not firewire

so the lightpipe itself would carry the sync information? thanks!

[Jorn Lavoll]

here's a different question.. how warm does the mixer get? how much heath does it produce. i know thats a bad pun, but the questions is serious

[tubeydude]

It does not make much heat. I've left mine on for several hours and it is barely warm to the touch in most spots. I think it says 35 watt power consumption.

[De chromium cob]

I wonder if A&H named this mixer after the character from Pulp Fiction....maybe they'll add an extender and call it "The Gimp"...

[lovekrafty]

Here's some eye candy, including my R-16 , enjoy.

[sparkyness]

may as well show off mine too :

[rolandman]

I've had the R16 for a while now. It was working perfectly until I got my hard drive wiped on my MacBook. I loaded the drivers off the A&H website and now it seems that these "newer" drivers are weirding out my Mac. I think I'm good for recording and mixing within Logic. But I've got two problems.

1. Zeddice Control Panel won't open! When I try a error message comes up that says, "Check driver configuration or device connection." I know my mac sees the driver and the Zed because I can record and playback within logic. Why won't the Control Panel open?

2. When I configure my audio set up to play itunes (as well as other things) through the Zed's 17 & 18 output (dig master) the settings never work. I apply the setting and it acts like it saves it, but it doesn't. As soon as I go back into the Audio Setup, it's back to output's 1&2. Is this a driver problem or a Mac OS problem?

What happened on the "new" drivers to make them not work??? I'd think wiping my harddrive and starting fresh would be a good thing.

HELP!!!

[ainternational]

Originally Posted by rolandman

I've had the R16 for a while now. It was working perfectly until I got my hard drive wiped on my MacBook. I loaded the drivers off the A&H website and now it seems that these "newer" drivers are weirding out my Mac. I think I'm good for recording and mixing within Logic. But I've got two problems.

1. Zeddice Control Panel won't open! When I try a error message comes up that says, "Check driver configuration or device connection." I know my mac sees the driver and the Zed because I can record and playback within logic. Why won't the Control Panel open?

2. When I configure my audio set up to play itunes (as well as other things) through the Zed's 17 & 18 output (dig master) the settings never work. I apply the setting and it acts like it saves it, but it doesn't. As soon as I go back into the Audio Setup, it's back to output's 1&2. Is this a driver problem or a Mac OS problem?

What happened on the "new" drivers to make them not work??? I'd think wiping my harddrive and starting fresh would be a good thing.

HELP!!!

Hi

I understand your pain - I've had a few issues with my ZedR/G5/Magma Chassis configuration: sometimes Logic/Core Audio will not recognise the ZedR as an audio device and reverts to using the internal outputs. I can usually rectify this by switching the ZedR off and on again or restarting core audio or rebooting Logic, but it's very annoying and seems to be completely random. The ZedR drivers are not as stable as my old MOTU 828: if the 828 was switched off and on again while Logic was running, Logic always recognised it as an audio device - with the ZedR it sometimes happens, then often doesn't - very flaky behaviour indeed.

I have learnt to live with this and have given up hope of new improved Mac drivers. However, this weekend, things went badly awry and the ZedR stopped playing ball with my set up: on the rare occasions I could get Logic to recognise it via a reboot, I was getting Core Audio Error Code -2 and no sound. I tried all the usual tricks: ditching preferences etc, but nothing was working. I could get the ZedR to work without the Magma Chassis being switched on, but that didn't help much, given my reliance on the 3 UAD-1s and Poco Mk2.

After a hair-tearing evening, I decided to uninstall the ZedR drivers and reinstalled them. Hey presto, it works again. Maybe worth a try for you (I'm using the latest drivers).

My problems may not completely be the ZedR's fault, though I never had these issues with my Motu. I do think that A&H have been slow to improve the drivers for Mac users.

In spite of the pain, it's still worth it for me: an amazing piece of kit that I love using. I may not feel the same way if this had happened in the middle of an important session... Good luck - try A & H support, if you can find the link on the ZedR site - I couldn't.

[tubeydude]

Have you checked your board to see if it is missing a couple of ground connection on the firewire board?

Mine had intermittent dropouts and I checked and sure enough the solders were missing. Fixing it solved the problem. No more dropouts.

[rolandman]

My Zed isn't having problems with dropouts. It works fine when recording in Logic. I just can't open the Zeddice Control panel. And the Audio Setup won't lock on to channels 17 & 18 as the main outs.

[MartinHB]

Originally Posted by Jorn Lavoll

here's a different question.. how warm does the mixer get? how much heath does it produce. i know thats a bad pun, but the questions is serious

Hardly nothing at all. The heat that comes from my IMac 24 is about the same. I leave the Zed on 24/7.

[MartinHB]

Originally Posted by stripey

H

Personally, I can live with everything about the R16 RIGHT NOW , providing the four auxes can be soldered post fader.

Is it hard? Is it a good idea? Is it irreversible (hey, there's a word you don't hear every day, except in vasectomy clinics)?

A&H Mike - any advice, please?

In one of your other posts you mentioned about requiring stereo AUX sends. Obviously if you use the two pos ones that will use up both for one effect. But, do you really need to send stereo signals to ourboard FX? Iev had many stereo input FX boxes and cant honestly say Ive noticed much of a difference between using just the mono input vs stereo input. I mean with an effect like reverb, well your still get the space created. You may have a specific must have though that Im not considering.

Probably best to contact A+H regarding the Pre fade mod. If your buying one they might do it for you and ship it to the store your purchasing from. If I had paid attention to this before its what I would have done. In time I may get around to having the pre sends modded.

[MartinHB]

ATT KRAFTY + SPARKY

Thats might fine spaces you got there

Theres really no point in showing my porn, its a couple of Euphonix's, Zed, a Mac and and PC...OH and a Hamster...

Krafty, I cant recall checking your site until I saw these pics. But as soon as I saw them I just knew there was going to be a psychadelic element in your stuff. THAT SPACE you got there is just soooo set up for that.

Thats the sort of Place I would much rather work in than a clinical big room or small room. Yours is like a womb, just where the vibe should be made..Cool. If Im ever in LA im coming round!!. Interestingly I just had a vocalist over here in Scotland fron LA (5 months) on an album. Your space would have been great for that session, as well as a little bit of of hippie action from your self.

Sparky your's is cool to, but LK and me go bacl a long way in this thread Haha..Im thinking you must stand up while on the mix. Not sure I would like my controllers that high up, maybe its just the pic angle. But its all good..

Best of Luck to both of you...and Little Zed wants to leave me and move in with one of you guys, little traitor.. haha..

[MartinHB]

Originally Posted by rolandman

My Zed isn't having problems with dropouts. It works fine when recording in Logic. I just can't open the Zeddice Control panel. And the Audio Setup won't lock on to channels 17 & 18 as the main outs.

You cant open the control panel while your Daw is running making the issue of changing buffer settings a major annoyance. For me thats something I normally did a lot and havent experienced the need to close down a programme to do such a thing for many years. This isnt an A+H thing they can fix. The drivers are made by another company and its them that need to see about this. Cant recall the name of the company, but Mike mentions them in one of his posts a few pages back.

In regards locking 17-18, afraid I cant help you there. But again , its really worth bringing this to the attention of the driver developer.

Like others I also believe the drivers need a bit of work. When you think of it they are crucial to the operation of the console.

[Motorised Embryo]

Originally Posted by Saudade

Just saw it announced on Harmony-central:

ZED SERIES :: ALLEN & HEATH

Looks like the best feature set for my needs....if I remember correctly even the flagship Onyx doesn't offer that many FW channels to the computer. This one has 16(ch)+2(master) analog to FW, and additional 16 ADAT inputs switchable for a total 26 simultaneous streams in (and 26 outs) If I understand the initial specs listed on the website correctly

It supposedly uses the JetPll thingy by TC for its jitter reduction....so I suspect the "audio interface" part of the mixer has external involvements outside A&H

And I like the MIDI knobs, faders and transport section built in, maybe it could be mapped to plugin EQs etc so we can do away with the mouse and keyboard for such things

And it could supposedly be used as a live mixer as well

Last questions linger, what is the price...and is it made in china? (just kidding )

Hi,
Go to the very informative A&H site and you'll find out everything about this beast. The link for the page for the ZED 16 is here:
ZED SERIES :: ALLEN & HEATH