A&H Zed R16 Firewire Mixer

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

just thought i would keep everyone up to date...got the zed working with the 003! mixing 16 channels from PT, master output 2 track through apogee rosetta 200, back into PT SPDIF.

so you have 8 analog / 8 ADAT going to / from the 003 to / from the R16v. Sounds like a great setup. MIDI HUI working too? Do you notice any audio differences between the analog and ADAT channels? I assume that there must be a slight converter delay between the analog and digital channels too or does it happen to align perfectly?

[Smoothdj]

marc,
you can route stereo tracks from cubase to any 2 mono channels or to the stereo channels (default is mono 1-2). You just have to set it up in vst connections, then select the output bus (from that stereo track in cubase) to the corresponding channels on the ZED. And when using the line-in inputs on the zed stereo channels, you can record directly into cubase via firewire or you can record the 2 track master out to another hard disc recorder via any of the stereo outputs. Hope that answers ur question.

tsvisser,
i have 8 analog out from 003 and 8 ADAT out from 003 into line input channels 1-8 and ADAT 9-16 respectivly. I only have 2 channels going back into the 003 via the 2 track master outputs of zed, into rosetta, into 003 via SPDIF. Great for mixing when you would only need a 2 track copy recorded back. Mixed a 16 channel PT session on the board with analog EQ and outboard processing/fx. No converter delay at all, everything lined up perfect. I have the transport functions working properly when using cubase, havnt tried with PT. Thats it as far as midi functions so far, havnt mapped anything else out. NYC!!!!

hope my answers helped

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

so you have 8 analog / 8 ADAT going to / from the 003 to / from the R16v. Sounds like a great setup. MIDI HUI working too? Do you notice any audio differences between the analog and ADAT channels? I assume that there must be a slight converter delay between the analog and digital channels too or does it happen to align perfectly?

There is around 0.5 millisecond conversion delay between the analogue signal and the ADAT output, so a system delay with ADAT out and back into analogue again is 1mS. I've just confirmed this in practice with a measurement using a storage scope. Generally ADAT will be lower latency than the FireWire bus, whether this is critical I suppose would depend on how your monitoring is sourced (we recommend using the Aux buses in analogue - zero latency!) and the ability to offset, align or compensate for latency in the DAW application.
Cheers,
Mike.

[Smoothdj]

Alien Heath,
Can the zed act as a control surface with PTLe using HUI protocol?
Any plans to post anything in regards to midi mapping with other DAW's?

thanks

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

tsvisser,
i have 8 analog out from 003 and 8 ADAT out from 003 into line input channels 1-8 and ADAT 9-16 respectivly. I only have 2 channels going back into the 003 via the 2 track master outputs of zed, into rosetta, into 003 via SPDIF. Great for mixing when you would only need a 2 track copy recorded back. Mixed a 16 channel PT session on the board with analog EQ and outboard processing/fx. No converter delay at all, everything lined up perfect. I have the transport functions working properly when using cubase, havnt tried with PT. Thats it as far as midi functions so far, havnt mapped anything else out. NYC!!!!

hope my answers helped

That setup sounds so hot. So you are using it just for mixing? Any reason why you couldn't take 8 analog inputs and 8 ADAT inputs into the 003 in order to make it a good tracking front end too?

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

Alien Heath,
Can the zed act as a control surface with PTLe using HUI protocol?
Any plans to post anything in regards to midi mapping with other DAW's?

thanks

Hi Smoothdj
The ZED-R16 can act as a controller but there is no return MIDI data back to the ZED (the faders are not automated and no lights are operated by MIDI). So it outputs specific MIDI commands (you can change the MIDI channel but not the command type) which you should be able to map to any DAW that can learn MIDI commands for its control. I have just purchased a Profire Lightbridge to interface to PTLE so I can try it for you.
Regarding MIDI mapping to other DAWs - we have successfully mapped to:
SONAR, Cubase, Logic, Acid, FL Studio, Audition and Ableton Live (MMC not tested with Ableton).
Some of these DAWs are easy to load MIDI maps which match the ZEDs controllers to relevant parameters, and some seem more tricky to load either the xml file of the preset and it's easier for the user to map it from scratch to their personal preferences. We've been a bit slow in providing MIDI maps & tips on our website - to be honest most users have done it anyway because the ZED-R16 simply acts as a generic MIDI controller, but we will try to get more stuff on the site soon.
Cheers,
Mike.

[Smoothdj]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

That setup sounds so hot. So you are using it just for mixing? Any reason why you couldn't take 8 analog inputs and 8 ADAT inputs into the 003 in order to make it a good tracking front end too?

Thats the plan! just havnt had the opportunity to track anything into PT yet. just got the 003 in 2 days ago and we still have to set up the batchbay (among other things). We have done 2 sessions tracking into Cubase and it was a breeze.

AlienHeath,
thanks for the reply. i was able to map the quick controls in Cubase to the midi controls on the desk with the learn function. Pretty cut and dry there, but thats only good for 8 faders, etc. I will have to dig a little deeper to map all the parameters. And yes please let me know how that works out with the profire!

Overall i give this board a 9.5 of 10. Very very pleased so far. My workflow is so much smoother now and i love analogue! def would have went for a 24 ch version with motorized faders and solo.

[awediohead]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

*snip*

Overall i give this board a 9.5 of 10. Very very pleased so far. My workflow is so much smoother now and i love analogue! def would have went for a 24 ch version with motorized faders and solo.

It's great to hear positive comments from so many folks!

That said I don't recall A&H saying anything about motorised faders in a 24 ch version - though this thread's now so long I maybe forgot? My concern would be that this would vastly increase the price point – which is why they weren't included in the 16 channel version I believe. As I've said previously on this thread I for one can live without the motorised faders - by contrast solo would be very welcome and hopefully not too tricky to implement with a larger board?

cheers

[Jazzooo]

"That said I don't recall A&H saying anything about motorised faders in a 24 ch version "


I believe he meant he would have bought it if it had existed--me too. I can't mix without them, or at least I don't want to.

[androne]

One question:

Would 24 channels of audio work properly through 1 firewire connection ?
16 channels is already lots of audio & sync data... not sure if 24 or even 32 channels would be possible.

Would A&H then add 2 firewire ports for the bigger sized consoles ?
How would one connect this then to a laptop ?
With a desktop you would add another dedicated FW PCIe card.

Any comments Mike ?
Is a 24/32 channel version coming ?

[F5D]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

I'm keen on designing a larger model in the ZED-R range, I like the idea of combining the traditional console element with modern computer based recording and physical controllers and anything that simplifies or speeds up workflow can potentially aid creativity (or just make life easier!)
Kind regards,
Mike.

Hello Mike.

If you decide to build a bigger version of the R16, I would suggest the following:

-100mm faders (this is very important)
-24 mono channels (please give 3 adat i/o's in addition to fw if some people want to use only adat. Using fw with high track counts could be a problem anyway)
-All connectors should be on the back panel of the mixer like in GL-series. If you put the R16 in front of a computer lcd, all audio cables are in front of your lcd panel. With GL-series you don't have this problem.

If these things show up in the bigger version, I am very much interested. Automation and motorized faders might increase the price too much so I don't suggest them.

Btw, I guess you could also build a new GL-series mixer with these preamps and eq's. I am currently checking out the GL2400 24ch version for recording / mixing in my studio and it looks more suitable for my needs than the R16. However, a bigger R-series version might change this.

[Smoothdj]

yea i meant if it existed i would have got it. i would like to see motorized faders for recall more than automation. Writing automation in the sequencer is no problem but opening up projects and setting the levels and eq every time is kind of annoying. Im curious if implementing fw800 would help with adding more i/o. 100mm faders would be nice but not absolutely necessary. Connections on the back would be nice but also not necessary.
I would assume that they will see how well the r16 does in the market before committing to any other versions.

[sirthought]

Yes, this product hasn't even gotten out of the gate and people are already saying they will buy the next version "if only"...

I'm sure it's hard to find a product suitable for everyone's tastes.

One thing I'm curious about that no one seems to know much about is if USB 3.0 will change things for the better. I'm sure that industries like digital cameras and printers will be going that way soon and it might be harder to find FW on PCs eventually.

[AlienHealth]

Hi All,

Thanks for the comments - here's a reply to cover a few of them:

Interfacing to Pro Tools: I have hooked up to a ZED-R16 to Pro Tools MPowered through an M-Audio ProFire Lightbridge which was easy to get audio and MMC working (I sync'd the ProFire from an ADAT source from the ZED so that the ZED could remain clock master). I can't see an easy way to use the MIDI controls on ZED-R16 with Pro Tools though because PT requires specific MIDI messages and cannot learn the message type from ZED, and we can't change the message type from the front panel.

Androne, yes you can get more channels on one FireWire bus - in fact ZED-R16 has 2 FW ports so you can daisy chain 2 mixers together on the bus to get a total of 52 audio channels to & from the computer. (each ZED-R would send & return 16 mono channels, stereo mix 17-18, plus 8 ADAT channels).

A larger mixer is certainly on the cards (if not on the drawing board!) We need to look at how to get the motor faders designed in - maybe as a model option, as they would add a fair bit to the selling price.

F5D: Point taken regarding the connector position. Also, maybe another studio oriented mixer, but with live capablity might be a good idea, or else a GL with a multi-channel converter unit.

Sirthought: You're right to be curious about fast USB! They have been conspicuously absent! There are some USB2.0 streaming devices available now (recently really), but we chose FireWire & ADAT for ZED-R16 as at the time they offered the best & most reliable performance. I'm not 100% but I think it's quite tricky to produce drivers for streaming audio using USB2 +.

I better get on with the biggun!

Cheers,
Mike.

[roc]

Yo Mike

Just a suggestion for bigger modal :

1. a transport scroll wheel
2. meter bridge
3. Transport clock
4. reverb delay fx (for live use)
5. and your famous filters on the zone series.

Peace

[sirthought]

Originally Posted by AlienHealth

Sirthought: You're right to be curious about fast USB! They have been conspicuously absent! There are some USB2.0 streaming devices available now (recently really), but we chose FireWire & ADAT for ZED-R16 as at the time they offered the best & most reliable performance. I'm not 100% but I think it's quite tricky to produce drivers for streaming audio using USB2 +.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for addressing some of the comments here. It helps a lot.
Do you know anything about how the new USB 3.0 handles audio?

[Dj Tu-ki]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

Thats the plan! just havnt had the opportunity to track anything into PT yet. just got the 003 in 2 days ago and we still have to set up the batchbay (among other things). We have done 2 sessions tracking into Cubase and it was a breeze.

1st post, so consider me something of a novice, thanks!

Smooth Dj, have been watching this thread for a long time and you are the 1st person to really get into PTLE and specifically the Digi 003. Thanks for all your info so far.

My main intention for this mixer if possible is to track my 16 analog inputs from the zed into my 003 through FW or a a combination of FW and adat.
The main concern I have is that, I'm using a mac book pro with only one FW port.
Would it be possible to daisy chain the zed into the 2nd FW port on the 003 or vice versa for the full 16. Or is there another combination that would allow me to get all 16/18 from the zed into the 003?

Thanks a lot for any help you may have....

[sparkyness]

Mike,

Any word from TC re: 64 bit drivers yet? Still can't get them to work under either XP64 (glitching audio issue) or Vista 64 bit (not digitally signed). Otherwise, still digging the (new) unit.

Cheers,
Simon.

[AlienHealth]

Originally Posted by sparkyness

Mike,

Any word from TC re: 64 bit drivers yet? Still can't get them to work under either XP64 (glitching audio issue) or Vista 64 bit (not digitally signed). Otherwise, still digging the (new) unit.

Cheers,
Simon.

Hi Simon,
Not yet - I'll follow this up. The drivers do claim to be 64 bit compliant, though we havent verified this at our factory. I'll let you know as soon as I hear something.
Cheers,
Mike.

[Smoothdj]

Originally Posted by Dj Tu-ki

1st post, so consider me something of a novice, thanks!

Smooth Dj, have been watching this thread for a long time and you are the 1st person to really get into PTLE and specifically the Digi 003. Thanks for all your info so far.

My main intention for this mixer if possible is to track my 16 analog inputs from the zed into my 003 through FW or a a combination of FW and adat.
The main concern I have is that, I'm using a mac book pro with only one FW port.
Would it be possible to daisy chain the zed into the 2nd FW port on the 003 or vice versa for the full 16. Or is there another combination that would allow me to get all 16/18 from the zed into the 003?

Thanks a lot for any help you may have....

Thanks Tu-Ki,
I only wish other ppl would share their experiences. it really helps since there is little help available on the subject. To my understanding, you cannot track the 16 line inputs from the zed into PTLE. The zed is not a compatible interface for PT. The only thing that might work is 8 ADAT from the zed to the ADAT on the 003. Im pretty sure the 003 only has 8 in/out ADAT. In this case, you would switch the zed into ADAt mode which means the firewire cable does not have to be plugged in at all from the zed. I would just try out different things and see what works and what doesnt and then share your experiences. Take a look at the files AlienHeath posted on this page, it has the full routing layouts for each scenario.

[noizelab]

It would be really cool to have something between the R16 and the ZED420. Something like a studio-version of the ZED420 (or 428) without USB, but with parametric EQs, MIC/LINE Switches (!) for mixing and a control room matrix for at least 2 sets of monitors.
I think that would be great for people that don't need an audio interface, converters and MIDI.

And looking at the price tag of the current models - no competition out there!

Well ... at least build one of those for me
And call it noiZEDlab 420

[peeweedrummer]

ok so this unit seems like its an awesome solution for small studios.

I want to know how the converters compare? i have an rme ff400, will the r16 give me the same quality conversion as the rme?

the pre's and eq's and routability seem fine, i think the standard of the conversion will be the deal breaker for me.

(I highly doubt the converters are going to be even near apogee standard but i need at least rme)

[peeweedrummer]

does the zed r16 come with other software like rme's totalmix?

im just wondering how i would be able to get more than 2 headphone sends if needed?

i was thinking a behringer ada8000 would give me more outs. but how do i get the signals there with no latency?

im using cubase sx3 and i like to record with my buffers all the way up so direct monitoring in sx3 wont do it.

any ideas??

[sparkyness]

Originally Posted by peeweedrummer

I want to know how the converters compare? i have an rme ff400, will the r16 give me the same quality conversion as the rme?

the pre's and eq's and routability seem fine, i think the standard of the conversion will be the deal breaker for me.

(I highly doubt the converters are going to be even near apogee standard but i need at least rme)

I have both the ZED r16 and a FF400.....I personally prefer the sound of the ZED's conversion but had no issues with the converters on the FF400.

[peeweedrummer]

sparkyness thanks for your reply. i am pleased to know that the mixer has decent conversion in it.....but

does it have any mojo about it? the reason why i like outboar gear is because i think it smooths out the digital bits and puts some mojo back into the sound.it already seems like a great deal ( 16 decent pre/eq's with decent converter + adat) is there anything people dont like about the mixer?

[Dj Tu-ki]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

To my understanding, you cannot track the 16 line inputs from the zed into PTLE. The zed is not a compatible interface for PT. The only thing that might work is 8 ADAT from the zed to the ADAT on the 003. Im pretty sure the 003 only has 8 in/out ADAT

Smooth Dj, thanks again for your quick reply!
Yes, this is what I thought might be the case. Your right the 003 only does have 8adat. So you could only really use the desk at half capacity.
Just to clarify, I don't actually have a zed but really wanted to get one in the next month or two, so have just been trying to figure out on-line whether it will work for me and here seems to be the best resource around.

From what you are saying I gather that PTLE when 'launched' with the zed shows no communication at all, unlike other DAW's where the option of routing from the zed would come up in the input menu on your computer tracks once connected? Am I correct in saying this.

I shall try and contact A&H again and see if I can get a definite answer. Really had my mind set on using this as my main set-up, to track all my analog gear and my mpc into pro tools for recording and final editing.

Looks like I will have to get a different desk or change Daw's...... any advice/help from anyone would be much appreciated. Thanks a lot!

[Smoothdj]

Tu-Ki,
Thats whats suck about digi. You can only use their hardware. The work-around for you would be to track 8 analog inputs directly into the 003 and the other 8 into the zed, then into 003 via ADAT. That will give you 16 simultanious inputs into PTLE. You could also pick up another 003 but thats kind of rediculous if you ask me. You could also switch to another DAW but its all about what your comfortable working on. I prefer cubase for just about everything.
Routing as i just said will give you what your looking for, 16 simultanious for tracking and 16 back for mixing. Hope that helps.

[Dj Tu-ki]

Originally Posted by Smoothdj

Tu-Ki,
Thats whats suck about digi. You can only use their hardware. The work-around for you would be to track 8 analog inputs directly into the 003 and the other 8 into the zed, then into 003 via ADAT. That will give you 16 simultanious inputs into PTLE. You could also pick up another 003 but thats kind of rediculous if you ask me. You could also switch to another DAW but its all about what your comfortable working on. I prefer cubase for just about everything.
Routing as i just said will give you what your looking for, 16 simultanious for tracking and 16 back for mixing. Hope that helps.

Thanks again for the reply. Hmmmmmm yes, I guess this is the only real way of routing it to the 003. As much as I dislike protools/digidesign, it is really the only interface I've ever used and as you say am pretty comfortable with it.
I really thought that as long as I was using the digi hardware I would be able to use the '3rd party' zed to interface with it.
The workaround is tempting but kind of makes the features of the zed pretty much redundant. No midi, no 16 channells, auxs only on 8channels etc etc.
Hmmmmmm, dilema time again. May think about switching to logic/cubase/ableton and maybe just use PT at the final stage. Or was originally looking at the zed 420 before the r16...... has anyone used the 420, are the pre's much different?

Smooth dj, thanks again! Really appreciate your help and advice.

[Kvesper]

Originally Posted by sparkyness

I have both the ZED r16 and a FF400.....I personally prefer the sound of the ZED's conversion but had no issues with the converters on the FF400.

Are you running the zed via adat into your FF? This seems like an option for me as I could use totalmix.

Thanks
Kris

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