How do YOU quote studio time?

[dangoudie]

I'm starting out freelance and I've had three bands just today asking me for quotes for albums but have been unsure what to say.

I want to give options of: here's how much it would be for a rough recording, here's how much for the whole shebang etc.

I know that the standard of the band has a huge amount to do with it but I need some sort of range of responses here for great bands and crap ones.

I have read that a song per day is quite a common response.
But I'm thinking that the marginal cost of a songs decreases as more are done - i.e. the first song takes longer than subsequent songs and once a routine is established then efficiency increases. So maybe fewer days?

What do you reckon?

[BlueSprocket]

There is a lot that goes into this answer.

I personally prefer getting with the band and really discussing what their project needs, and what they're expecting as a band. The more times you do this, the more you learn how to ask these questions discreetly. I prefer to give the client a total project price, and not a "this much if we do this, and this much if we do this and this..."

Leaving the door open for "changes to the price" is just asking for trouble down the road. If a band can't give you a clear vision of what they're looking to do (5 song EP, tracked, mixed, and mastered, etc), then they aren't really ready to be recording. And if you explain that to them (diplomatically) they'll probably thank you later.

Once I have a feel for what the band wants and their ideal budget, I go to work figuring out how to facilitate that project. If I work in another studio for a few days I mark up that expense to pay myself for the time, and then charge accordingly for when we get back to my studio to finish the project. ALWAYS PAY YOURSELF FIRST. And always, always, get some form of payment upfront, could be half now half later or whatever you prefer, but always get a commitment from the client. If you approach it right, I've done EP projects for a few thousand and up from there, and the clients have all been happy. Just think it through and cover your expenses.

[samwinston123]

I always find out what their budget is, first of all. Then find out how much they want to do, then figure out a way to make it cost effective. Generally speaking a band's estimate for recording time is somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 of what is realistic. Make sure they know that the time it will take and the quality they will get is dependent on their skill/practice level.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

I'm starting out freelance and I've had three bands just today asking me for quotes for albums but have been unsure what to say.

I want to give options of: here's how much it would be for a rough recording, here's how much for the whole shebang etc.

I know that the standard of the band has a huge amount to do with it but I need some sort of range of responses here for great bands and crap ones.

I have read that a song per day is quite a common response.
But I'm thinking that the marginal cost of a songs decreases as more are done - i.e. the first song takes longer than subsequent songs and once a routine is established then efficiency increases. So maybe fewer days?

What do you reckon?

dude i think you asked the one of the most salient and difficult questions on here

over the years and changes in the industry it went from a high per hr rate to

Per song

Per Day

Per amount of songs that are tracked as a unit [as they would be close in mixing]

ya gotta feel things out

i also ask what people expect

i say hey you can cut a 10 song album in a day or 160 days or even more..what can you do and what do you expect the outcome to be..tehn i give a reality dose

i started doing mixes for a flat fee

then i saw problems..comping vocals or tracks with multiple takes that 128 track capability lends to people..duplicating and moving sections [emm if it were a dance mix but they usually took 2x's the time of a normal mix as 1/2 the session was getting sounds then the other half breaks drops edits etc..]

so now i am at the point of "what a MIX is" ...as people don't do premix stuff thinking they would get it "free" on the flat fee mix stage


it sucks..mostly ya never feel you get your worth especially today..but what other biz would you rather be in

it's one of the reasons i liked being a staff engineer..yeah..way less money per hr..but steady salary and i NEVER had to haggle money when all i wanted to do was be creative

so jump in..this is a great thread [ie i have no clue and need help too]

[Paul Hammond]

I always quote at least double per hour what I can make at home - before 10 am or 12 noon on any given day. This is usually between at least $50 to $100 per hour. Why should anyone leave the house if they are making less than that? Maybe need for experience, love of the work, etc. If your skill set is that developed and sought after you can basically name your price. The most money I personally make per hour is playing lead rock guitar. Everything else is just gravy, and that's the train to be on baby, the gravy train. Hop on board, Cheers, PH

[T_R_S]

By the hour or by the day.
It's really the fair way as way to many people will keep cmong back forever you do a flat rate. Record companies have a budget get so many hours then it's overtime after that.

[matt thomas]

I only have a day rate, if someone wants to use my studio for a couple of hours it takes up my whole day anyway

Like someone said you can do an album in one day, or a year, or anything in between. Personally I think a good amount of time for production and tracking for a rock album, for a band that can play well (no need for beat detective for example), is a month. (+ mixing and mastering)

The less rushed you are the more magic you'll get. Its the "trying stuff out" stages that get the interesting stuff.

But if you have too long its too easy to produce the life out of it

narco

[Daniel Antix]

I agree per hour or per day rate... I've done the per track before and it always ends up a headache.

[IzzyRock]

First of all, There are several factors you must have in mind. I will put some examples:

-Are you offering yourself as an Engineer, or just a "recording studio", Both are completely different.

- What if you charge per hour, so the band runs out of money, and they just track everything "fast". You may get poor performances, or in the worst cases, poor sounds. You sometimes can spend up two 2 hours getting the RIGHT sound for something. As an engineer, are you going to publish work you've done thats crappy?

- Same with charging per day. UNLESS of course, a band is willing to pay enough days/hours to get properly results out of everything. If a band its on a bugdet is different.

- Again, do you only engineer or sometimes you take care of some production? Arrangements? That takes time mate. And same question: Are you going to record crappy songs? the list goes and goes.

I want to give options of: here's how much it would be for a rough recording, here's how much for the whole shebang etc.

IMO thats the wrong way of thinking my friend. You just CANNOT record things rough, or sometimes better!! You always have to deliver the very best of you! Its ridiculous: "Well, for this money, you get your album sounding like shit. And for this amount, it sounds better. Now, if you have more money, i probably work more on it and its gonna sound great"
That doesnt speak very good from you.

Personally, I charge per project and that rate depends on the band's budget, the amount of work I expect will take, the quality of the material (how much do i have to put myself into it to get great results. arranging? telling the drummer he is playing something awfull? etc) Because, my bottom line is: Record quality. I cant just put things on my portfolio that i'm not proud of. You won't get better clients if you don't do better each time.
It¿s hard to say it but, sometimes you just have to "filter" things out, and you just can't record everybody, and that depends on your present goals, skills, etc.
Even tho, charging per project gets a more comfortable enviroment to work with. musicians doesn't feel pressured by the clock or money. They are relaxed and we focus on getting the best performance.
And of course, if you expect it will take a lot to get the best performance, you should just ask what you think its worth your time. Its up to the band if they are willing to spend that, and the most important thing. you know how much your work is worth .

Hope it jhelps

[dangoudie]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

Just to clarify: I'm asking how LONG rather than how MUCH.

I think the problem is, as someone said earlier, bands badly underestimate the amount of time recording takes so when you tell them they think "woah, that's a lot" rather than seeing it for what it is.

Any more comments would be appreciated

[goldenlotus]

Mostly I charge per project with specific limitations on the number of sessions.

With a lot of the rap guys I go by the hour.

I find that when working on an album, giving them a package price that includes mixing seems to go over pretty well. As a bonus, I get to make sure it is mixed the way that I want too! : )

[videoteque]

IMO thats the wrong way of thinking my friend. You just CANNOT record things rough, or sometimes better!! You always have to deliver the very best of you! Its ridiculous: "Well, for this money, you get your album sounding like shit. And for this amount, it sounds better. Now, if you have more money, i probably work more on it and its gonna sound great"
That doesnt speak very good from you.

Mejor consejo que he leido en GS!!!

Best advice I have read on GS!

[BlueSprocket]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

Thanks for all the responses guys.

Just to clarify: I'm asking how LONG rather than how MUCH.

This definitely depends on the artist and what they expect from the project. Some artists expect to spend a week and finish an album. This can be done, but probably shouldn't, if nothing else for your sanity alone. It's important to get a feel for what the artist thinks will happen and then work accordingly. In some cases, you may need to educate an unrealistic artist on the fact that quality sometimes takes longer.

Rough times for me are (for release ready stuff): Single = 2/3 days, EP (3-5 Songs) = 1.5/2 weeks, Album (6-10 songs) = approx. 1 month. All flat rated up to a certain amount of time.

Now great artists can sometimes cut those times down substantially. Great artists can also extend them dramatically, depending on the pace they wish to take. All in what the artist wants. For the artist who thinks an album can be done in a week, I usually do a single for them first. After the single takes 3 days to get where everyone is happy, they usually see the light.

[j-uk]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

I'm starting out freelance and I've had three bands just today asking me for quotes for albums but have been unsure what to say.

I want to give options of: here's how much it would be for a rough recording, here's how much for the whole shebang etc.

I know that the standard of the band has a huge amount to do with it but I need some sort of range of responses here for great bands and crap ones.

I have read that a song per day is quite a common response.
But I'm thinking that the marginal cost of a songs decreases as more are done - i.e. the first song takes longer than subsequent songs and once a routine is established then efficiency increases. So maybe fewer days?

What do you reckon?

This isn't really difficult.

What are your fixed overheads: rent, bills etc
Floating costs: Equipment you need to rent, wear & tear on your instruments, blank CD's etc

You gotta eat & get to work so what ever cost that is.
Like any startup business don't expect to walk away with a huge or anytype of paycheck. Any revenue should go back into the business, new gear etc

The sum you'll come up with is probably too high for the band to pay (unless we're talking label stuff with a decent budget) but it will give you an idea what you actually need to earn.

So if the band can pay you 10K for their album, how much of your time does that buy them?

Great bands or crap ones doesn't matter it's all about preparation & people skills. Make sure your equipment is working, check microphones, backup and clear hard drives etc
Have a chat with the band so you can chose and set up amps & drums as quickly as possible.
Don't **** about in the studio!
Having a banter and a laugh is important but remember you're there to finish a product.
More importantly even if the band is the ones doing the procrastinating and drinking, doing weed, anything that will mess up the session YOU are the one who'll get the blame if they don't have anything to show for in the end!
If there is a producer involved do what he/she tells you! Don't get involved in arguments over reverb settings or any other bullshit. If he wants a 5sec hall on the lead guitar sobeit. Again having a chat beforehand will give you a clue what you're in for.

Good luck!

[primitive]

it took some time for me to get my system going but thats how I sorted it out:

First of all I have a basic day rate that I can tell in the moment I'm asked. I thought its kind of strange when someone asks you "how much" and you say "uhmm let me think..." so theres a number I can say immediately.
Although I'm on the lowe end of the Pricerange the answer I get most of the time is: "wow, thats a lot" but after some more asking I can see that I was just the first to ask. So most of those Bands have nothing to compare. Thats just a fairness issue. Same price for everyone... BUT:

If a very young band comes (which is the case quite often) and I like what hey are doing ( I always want to hear what someones doing before I make a desicion) I give benefits like setting up the drums the day before or doing a complete live recording for cutting down the time. I make sure, that they understand if they want to do a lot of overdubs and fool around with little parts ist costing time ergo money. When they only want a decent demo they don't want to go for that most of the time, as they think they're good enough like they are. AND THE POINT IS:
If they are NOT I won't do the production. I don't see the point In doing a Demo for a Band which is just not there yet.

If someone comes to do a decent production with overdubs and stuff, he/she knows that 4 songs on one day won't work. Expierience told them. So the money per day doesn't change, only the amount of sceduled days. And if something takes a little longer I usually go there the half way of splitting the extra costs with the band if its really more than a couple of hours. And if I think the music is worth it (which it is most of the times) I will add some extra effort when needed to get a product everyones happy with (including me).

So quite easy as you can see...

[dangoudie]

Originally Posted by BlueSprocket

Rough times for me are (for release ready stuff): Single = 2/3 days, EP (3-5 Songs) = 1.5/2 weeks, Album (6-10 songs) = approx. 1 month. All flat rated up to a certain amount of time.

Great, that's the sort of info I was after.

Although I empathize with primitive: when I tell bands my daily rate they too often think it's a lot but in reality it ain't. It's quite frustrating that musicians seem to completely undervalue the worth of a good recording.

[eligit]

^^

or from their perspective....it is damn hard to make money playing music (esp after travel, gear, rehearsal space rent, etc etc)....and then spend all of what they made in the last year on a recording.

tough old world out there.

[samwinston123]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

Great, that's the sort of info I was after.

Although I empathize with primitive: when I tell bands my daily rate they too often think it's a lot but in reality it ain't. It's quite frustrating that musicians seem to completely undervalue the worth of a good recording.

The problem is all of these shitty basement studios with a computer and 1 MXL mic that are charging nothing. I recently had a guy approach me about doing a full 12 song album. After talking to him over email for a little while about various aspects of the project, we hit the topic of money. I told him my day rate was $250. At that point I found out that he had almost no money, and a local basement job had quoted him $250 for doing the ENTIRE project in 3 days!

[TheRealRoach]

Originally Posted by samwinston123

At that point I found out that he had almost no money, and a local basement job had quoted him $250 for doing the ENTIRE project in 3 days!

Are there are few zeros missing from those numbers?

[TheRealRoach]

Prior to playing the potential client any of your work there's one question to ask that always gives you an idea of how smooth the project is going to be in terms of payment, playing, personalities, being in touch with reality... and that is: "How many hours are you expecting X number of songs to take?"

No matter what the answer all you say is "Ok lets go check out some tunes."

Hopefully they get blown away and are impressed by your work, then you break it to them about how each song was roughly 20 hours of production time over 2 days.

Then give them your day rate.

If you structure your meeting in this way then you'll probably find that they are much more receptive and objective to making the decision. (It generally works better if you have a reception or a common room that you can talk about all the numbers and money in so that their impression of the music-making space doesn't get tainted with business talk)

[matt thomas]

Originally Posted by samwinston123

The problem is all of these shitty basement studios with a computer and 1 MXL mic that are charging nothing. I recently had a guy approach me about doing a full 12 song album. After talking to him over email for a little while about various aspects of the project, we hit the topic of money. I told him my day rate was $250. At that point I found out that he had almost no money, and a local basement job had quoted him $250 for doing the ENTIRE project in 3 days!

you are underselling yourself.

I don't know how good you are, or what kind of studio you have, but that sounds far too cheap to me (unless you are a 1 MXL + basement kind of guy)

narco

[primitive]

Originally Posted by samwinston123

The problem is all of these shitty basement studios with a computer and 1 MXL mic that are charging nothing. I recently had a guy approach me about doing a full 12 song album. After talking to him over email for a little while about various aspects of the project, we hit the topic of money. I told him my day rate was $250. At that point I found out that he had almost no money, and a local basement job had quoted him $250 for doing the ENTIRE project in 3 days!

OH MAN I KNOW EXCLTY WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!
Problem is that this laptop/mxl/behringer (don't forget that one!) guys are not afraid of telling vast amounts of BS to those fresh bands. Like: "today you only need a computer - the pros also work with computers" because they simply don't know S&%t about room acoustics mics, pres monitors and so on. I lost a couple of customers who rather recorded in their rehersal room and spended the money on a soundcard and 3 sm57 attraps than go to the studio for 2 days
But the worst thing that they spend 2 months working on 3 songs and it still sounds sh$t and they LOVE it. Its just like they never heard a commercial cd and compared their stuff...

But as I have said before, there's a point when you just should say no.

Its completely different when working with labes though. My day rate is 288€ and I can afford that because I'm alone. No secretary no coffe girl. But they listen to my productions and appreciate their quality and they know that it's a bargain compared to others...
So I think this is mostly a Demo issue but as I don't want to do demos for the rest of my life I have to do projects that can enter my portfolio but don't ruin myself financially. And that leads to not compete with 70€/day "studios".

Sorry if I went a bit off topic but i think knowing what you're worth at least is an importat issue...

[IzzyRock]

Greats songs will lead you to be successful. So be aware of bands with GOOD material. If you think they are great, make an effort to record them for less than you would expect, because I can assure you will get paid back soon
You have to think "long term". (but make sure to pay the bills !!! )


(that will lead you to "i want to record with THIS guy, instead of "i wanna record on this studio/equipment)

[primitive]

Originally Posted by narco

you are underselling yourself.

I don't know how good you are, or what kind of studio you have, but that sounds far too cheap to me (unless you are a 1 MXL + basement kind of guy)

narco

Well you price has to open you a market and over here its not too easy. Vienna has about 2mio people living here. And about 100 "studios". thats too much already. A handfull of them have the equipment to call themself a Studio, and they charge appropiate rates. The others charge even less than me but work with a Behringer Digimixer and alesis monitors and the output is . And Bands are happy. Actually Bands I would personally never listen to. Not because of the sound but of their extremely boring music. For that rate I don't want to do that.
The high end are all a bunch of old guy where everyone knows each other - so a Band which records there knows the owner or engineer and get some special rates. All work for majors is also done by them (again with the family business thing) - so getting in there is really hard, almost impossible.
So what can I do and waht do I want to do?
Major work - can't.
Boring bands who like to thik from themselves as the BEST - don't want to.

But there is some real good talent out there which will never get attention from any labels but they make great music. And they don'T want to work with an engineer who puts his ego higher than their music - and they mostly also don't enjoy Behringer stuff. And that's where I step in. And its great fun!

BTW: Commercial productions and film mixing have a completely different rate. When they come theres also a Coffe Girl around most of the time. And that's where I actually can EARN some money. But it's almost impossible with music over here...

[primitive]

Originally Posted by IzzyRock

(that will lead you to "i want to record with THIS guy, instead of "i wanna record on this studio/equipment)

And THATS the way to go!!
(But beeing a GS I like good equipment )