They didn't need Autotune in the old days ..here's proof!

[Chaellus]

i found the performance rather good....thats how country vocals are supposed to sound anyway.. i say in an ideal world if a song needs autotuning...it needs a new singer.... could you imagine Tpain doing country witht aht autotune voice....e i had to add that in there... my understanding is auto is the 00 generation of what the 80's gated reverb snare hit was...overused to death

[mdme_sadie]

His style is Honky Tonk, and guess what - one of the defining elements of that is out of tune instruments and vocals. He's no worse than George Formby or any number of music hall acts of the mid to early 20th century and as someone mentioned the whole tracking is out on this, his real issue here is timing rather than pitch (and that's what's far more important to musicality). Regardless gimme this guy over Justin Timberlake any day of the week (and I don't even like country music).

[Studioklocka]

I enjoyed his performance thumbsup

[Everyman]

The inherent problem with singing songs of lament for bygone ways is that it tends to make you unable to change with the times. Stubbornness can be useful sometimes, but if you are a WORKING engineer/producer (ie. you actually get paid for your services), you will find it impossible to fly in the face of industrial convention for long without bankrupting yourself. Unless of course you already have a big name and people want your crotchety, anachronistic "quirkiness" on their record.

The truth is that I hate Autotune (melodyne, et al) and everything it stands for. I won't allow it on my own records. I think it siphons everything human and soulful out of singing. Those subtle variations, the overtones of teeth and tongue, the uneven vibrato, the rawness. It's appalling to me to think of music without that. But I need to know how to use it and have the option so that my clients can use it. I encourage them not to, gently, with positive reinforcement of their abilities, but I have to be able to provide a product that is comparable and competitive to other modern records. I lament it, but it's the way it is.

And attitudes are changing regarding these sorts of things. Take the whole Ashlee Simpson/SNL debacle for instance. 20 years before that, Milli Vanilli's entire CAREER was destroyed when it was discovered that they didn't sing on their records. Now she gets caught lip-synching on NATIONAL TV and no one thinks anything of it. She still releases records, does live performances and she's none the worse for it. So what's changed? People just don't care. They believe that the entertainment is more important than the art, the craft. It's like Ancient Rome at the end, profligate and stupid, fooling the people, it's citizens so enamoured with their own amusement that they ignore what's happening in the provinces until the Vandals and Visigoths came rolling into town. Except this time it's reality TV and empty music that is being used to keep the people stupid. Unfortunately, once Rome fell, it took almost a THOUSAND years before the renaissance came and people started to look beyond themselves. I hope our fate isn't the same.

Say what you will about ol' Webb Pierce's performance, but at least it was honest. Bad, yes. But honest.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Duardo

How about the headstock on that guitar though?

Could be a Ibanez, maybe he is in a metal band.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by denne

yeah, the lap steel-guy is quiet painfull too...

OK Cowboy...

I'll excuse you because you are from Switzerland, but that IS NOT a lap steel.

It is a double course (neck) pedal steel.
It is probably an Emmons.
It probably has two pedals and maybe a knee lever or two (maybe.)

He is playing the C7 neck.
This is the original tuning of steel guitar and is what they used on old C&W stuff.
The neck closer to him is most likely tuned to an E9.
E9 is the more modern tuning and was originally called "Nashville Screech" by old school guys who preferred the older style tuning.

His tuning is pretty much right on for the style.
If you researched who the player on the video is you would probably discover that he is one of the giants of the instrument.
If you ever try to play steel you would discover that what the guy is playing is not easy to do compared to regular guitar.
In fact, learning to play a modern pedal steel is probably one of the most complex and difficult things you can do in music.
The use of ten strings, several pedals and two knee levers is mind boggelingly confusing!
I have played guitar since I could pick one up (45 years?)
I cannot do ANYTHING on a pedal steel.... I have tried, too!
It is an instrument unto itself.
The only parallel to a regular guitar is that it has strings!

BTW, I heard a Webb Pierce "hit" on XM Satellite Radio last night.
He sung quite well.
It was obviously live in the studio considering the date.

I don't know what is up with sangin' on the YouTube video.
It don't bother me no how!

This "ol' boy" might be from across the pond from Texas, but you can see the complexity of the steel guitar.
Listen and watch things from 1:22 on. Notice how much is pedals and knee levers and not done by fretting with the bar.
YouTube - Orange Blossom Special Version 2

Or this which is the side of steel guitar that most people don't know exists:
YouTube - Lush Life - Jim Cohen, Pedal Steel Guitar

[HeavyG]

Originally Posted by j-uk

You do what the client wants you to do, simple as that. Yes there are absolutely those who do not do any beatdetecting, tuning etc but listen to any top 10 song .........



Hate to break it to ya but that's what we are....................

No question. It is a fine line...I just think with all the technology we have today, we take "the man behind the curtain" a little too far sometimes. The beauty of the old classic recordings is that they were honest (to quote Everyman)...you heard an accidental rimshot...a phone ringing in the background...a missed note...a dragged beat...but it was THEM exposed, vulnerable and ultimately...it was beautiful.

I am offended when Mariah Carey or Beyonce lipsynchs and calls it a concert. I am not impressed when a band puts out an album that is not THEM in any way, shape or form (it is more the work of the brilliant engineers like you guys than it is theirs). Justifying all of these "performance enhancing tools" by saying everyone else does it ("Listen to any Top 10 song") is like the guys in baseball who did steroids cuz everyone else was...it was still dishonest. If I hear a record today...I am not blown away because I know that there is a great chance that a COMPUTER is playing the song...give me a few wrong notes any day...at least it is honest.

[crufty]

have to admit, that is country thru n thru...that style of singing was very popular. maybe not the best, YouTube - Ramblin' Man (animated short) but good nonetheless.

Is it me or did everyone look hung over? haha.

[vernier]

OK Cowboy...

I'll excuse you because you are from Switzerland, but that IS NOT a lap steel.

It is a double course (neck) pedal steel.
It is probably an Emmons.
It probably has two pedals and maybe a knee lever or two (maybe.)

Actually its a Bigsby pedal steel, designed and built by Paul Bigsby, the guy who created the tremelo we see on all the Gretsch guitars. And the guy in the vid playing it is Bud Isaacs, who was the first to use a pedal steel on a recording, which was in '53.

During and after Bigsby came ShoBud, a company co-owned by Shot Jackson and Buddy Emmons. And later, Emmons went on his own to build Emmons pedal steels.

In the beginning of the vid, the guy in the background wearing red pants is Shot Jackson ..he was on the show that day playin' Dobro.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by vernier

I'm kinda freakin out that everyone isn't cracking up, because this guy is all over the place ..everywhere but "on pitch". I like Webb Pierce, but this particular performance is horrendous.
'

i think it's ace in a cringeworthy kinda way! Nice one

[Sounds Great]

Actually, here is the proof:

[vernier]

i think it's ace in a cringeworthy kinda way! Nice one

Was odd, Webb Pierce had the most hits but the other singers of the day sang absolutely on pitch, Carl Smith, Faron Young, Marty Robbins, Ray Price, Jim Reeves, Hawkshaw Hawkins, and others. I'm thinkin' its the way his voice cut through the radio.
'

[johnnyjellybean]

Originally Posted by vernier

I'm kinda freakin out that everyone isn't cracking up, because this guy is all over the place ..everywhere but "on pitch". I like Webb Pierce, but this particular performance is horrendous.
'

You call that all over the place? I am working on a guy now thet goes off by as much as a tone!!!! It's making me sick.

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by vernier

Was odd, Webb Pierce had the most hits but the other singers of the day sang absolutely on pitch, Carl Smith, Faron Young, Marty Robbins, Ray Price, Jim Reeves, Hawkshaw Hawkins, and others. I'm thinkin' its the way his voice cut through the radio.
'

You would know the pedal steel timeline wouldn't you VERNIER!
How do you know who the player is?
I'm not doubting you, but just wondering.

I said Emmons, but later thought I should have said ShoBud.
SHOt Jackson - BUDdy emmons... how did they ever come up with that name?

Speaking of Steel Guitar history:
The Steel Guitar Hall of Fame used to be at the Adams Mark Hotel in downtown St. Louis.
It isn't there now, but it IS still in St. Louis.
Why St. Louis I don't know.

BTW, the steel on that cut isn't out of tune.

I have an LP with all of the old time greats playing steel guitar.
Shot Jackson, Buddy Emmons, Curly Chalker, Pete Drake, Leon McAuliffe... on and on.
Cool stuff!
You do know that I am a HUGE Jimmy Bryant an Speedy West nut.

Like I said... I heard a Webb Pierce song on XM last night and his pitch was dead on.
Equally on par with any of the others.
I used to mix Ray Price and have in recent times.
I likes my old timey country!

[bassie12]

That's a Bigsby steel in the video. I don't think Sho-Bud steels were available until the 60s... at least that's what Jerry Byrd told me.

[vernier]

You would know the pedal steel timeline wouldn't you VERNIER!
How do you know who the player is?
I'm not doubting you, but just wondering.

I said Emmons, but later thought I should have said ShoBud.
SHOt Jackson - BUDdy emmons... how did they ever come up with that name?

Jimmy Day came up with the name. They started in late 50's ..Shot built and signed one of my ShoBuds, which is a '59.

As for Bud Isaacs, I know him from my interest in honky tonk music, and also know his nephew, Johnny.
'

[vernier]

That's a Bigsby steel in the video. I don't think Sho-Bud steels were available until the 60s... at least that's what Jerry Byrd told me

Ah, Jerry Byrd ..pure magic. I learned alot (how to even play) from studying him.
'

[TYY]

I wouldn't change a thing.


You guys should stick to your Hillary Duffs.

[lynyrd]

Originally Posted by Duardo

How about the headstock on that guitar though?

I gotta agree, that headstock is absolutely KILLIN me, its like driving by a car wreck and not being able to look away! And more than a few guys of that era have acoustic guitars equally as hideous.

[vernier]

Here's one for ya.
'

[dbbubba]

Lookee there!

Who do we see sitting there in the background tuning his L5 with his ear on the upper bout?
Why I do believe it's Chet Atkins.

That elsectric guitar the guy takes the lead ride on looks like the doubleneck Stratosphere that Jimmy Bryant played.
I forget the name of the guy who built those.
There was one hanging for years in a pawnshop I used to visit almost weekly.
UGleeee, but utra cool now.

[dbbubba]

Mr. Price then:

YouTube - Ray Price - Crazy Arms

Mr. Price now:

YouTube - Ray Price - Crazy Arms / Heartaches by the Number

Although he's still not bad, he could sing in the day!

BTW... Mr. Price still has the old Led Zepplin / Paul McCartney / Bee Gees, ex SHOWCO Yamaha PM1000 32 channel console we used to mix him on sitting in a barn at his farm in East Texas.
I know that lot's of budget conscious GS folks think those are tre cool, but it isn't worth the effort.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by vernier

I'm kinda freakin out that everyone isn't cracking up, because this guy is all over the place ..everywhere but "on pitch". I like Webb Pierce, but this particular performance is horrendous.
'

I would still rather hear this than the obvious effects of Autotune and its ilk.

I have no problem with the appropriate use of AT -- but it drives me nuts when it's obvious.

I recently stumbled on to Austin singer/songwriter Slaid Cleaves and I really like a lot of his songs -- but some of his stuff has nasty AT wrenchmarks. How they ever let it out of the studio, I don't know.

[MyBeautifulStar]

This made me happy.

And I embrace Melodyne in a way as artistically as possible. :D

[brill bedroom]

Well, that's not Webb's finest moment, but go download "There Stands The Glass". That's a killer diller record.

[vernier]

Well, that's not Webb's finest moment, but go download "There Stands The Glass". That's a killer diller record.

Yep, I have most of his fifties recordings and some on vinyl ..lots of good stuff there.


One of my faves from 1952 --> YouTube - Webb Pierce -Wondering


'

[swankdoc]

Its a reasonable performance, and trust me I'm a voice **** as it were. Given that he's got virtually no monitor system, singing while walking without amplification into an open room, a few instruments off to the side in the studio /stage that dont sound particularly in tune either. Thats a tough act.
I'm guessing short of stopping the song mid stream, they dont do re-takes. He wasnt over singing and his out of tune parts are 'honest' and 'human' sounding and they convey the mood of song very well. The 3 things that top my listening requests. Hearing an 'American Idol' wanna be butcher a pop scale ad lib on I love youoouuuuuuuuuuoo....that gets the chalk scratching and the auto tune warmed up.

[bcgood]

Here's The Cure and Robert Smith sounding right in the pocket.

[dbbubba]

Webb Pierce.... Robert Smith.... Yeah, good comparison...

My first impression is that Webb Pierce WAS singing in room with the band off to the side and they were shooting with film which was going to be rather expensive.
There were undoubtedly many technical issues for film that made the environment for a great musical performance be a compromise.
Re-takes were going to be expensive.
Still, in feature film production the ratio between actual footage shot and the amount used in the final edits is 17:1.
I doubt they had a 17:1 budget in this case.
The reason I say that you are looking at film is because there wasn't color video available then.

Ampex VR1000 (the very first B&W video recorder) was introduced in '56

Ampex VR2000 (the very first COLOR video recorder) was introduced in '64

There was B&W video, but it wouldn't look like what you see if it was colorized.
The same production issues apply if it is video, but you are looking at film.

[vernier]

The reason I say that you are looking at film is because there wasn't color video available then.

Yep, shot on film. I have a book somewhere with the details ..something about Al Gannaway having film leftover from some movies he made, so they decided to use it on the tv shows. Also tells about Owen Bradley being up stairs handling the audio, and how it was blistering hot on the set.

YouTube - Ray Price - I Saw My Castles Fall Today

'