An Honest Look At Your Goals An Ability

[jacobq]

I have taken an honest look at my involvment in music as a musician,that term being used loosley, and a person who enjoys recording other more talented musicians.

I am curious at other members on this board who at some time in their carreer came to the conclusion and realization that they were never going to be a talented musician but were very good at recording and have an ability to know good music and sound when you hear it. I am sure there are some of you who are talented enough to do both.

I do not entend to stop practicing piano and acoustic guitar but sometimes it hits you when you are recording talented musician that maybe its time to face the truth.And maybe its time to concentrate more on the engineering side of music and quit banging your head against the wall over the dream of being a studio musician.
There are probably many engineers who have stories to share.

[Jose Mrochek]

Great thread jacobq. Most of the engineers I know started off as musicians. But I don't think it's about others being better musicians or not, it's finding a passion in recording. And yes, I think there is some type of tension relief when you are on the other side of the window. In your case though.. It seems to me if I not mistaken, that you are settling for less. I still think you would like to be a session musician, I will encourage you to keep at it.. and if you want to record stuff, do it as fun but focus on making music. I think there is no better satisfacition than creating some type of music. Unless you deep inside feel Recording is your thing and found a passion for it, I would keep up with playing. Because if you don't you will end up being a half way good engineer and a half way good musician. Just follow your heart

[enharmonic]

I've more or less accepted the fact that the odds of me being a part of a national act are not looking so hot now that I'm over the hill (31). I'm a solid songwriter, a gifted vocalist, and a respectable rhythm guitarist. My engineering skills are efficient...I can get good sounds and basically not ruin a session with rookie mistakes, but I know that I will likely never develop elite mixing skills, and I am ok with that.

I've heard my mixes up against some other guys around town who are making good money doing it for a living. Some, like Drew...totally whoop my ass. Others are substandard IMHO, and I could easily jack their business if I were more of a people person, or had the hunger to be a full time engineer.

As it stands, I became a student of audio (and continue to learn thanks to excellent forums like this) for the primary purpose of recording my own music, and to make me a better musician. I don't have the desire or the energy to take any job that comes along just to pay the bills, so I could never do it as a regular gig. Then again, it could simply be a symptom of my surroundings. Most of what passes for music in this god-forsaken town makes me violently ill, so that is a definite factor in my current outlook.

Jacobq, I agree with Jose...don't give up anything that you love. There's more than one way to be successful. You simply have to consider the avenues available to you as an artist, and seize the opportunity to take a bit of a risk now and again. Best of luck to you!

[picksail]

Interesting topic.

First of all, I think that it is absolutely imperative for one to constantly reassess their present position in life. ‘ How much have I progressed in the last year?’ ‘ What more have I achieved in my career than the previous year?’ ‘ Do I enjoy where I am right now?’ etc, etc, etc.

I can only speak for myself, but I gravitated towards the profession of audio engineering for reasons that were both sociological and pragmatic. As a musician and composer I realized that the chances of having any new music performed or broadcast in this day and age were nil. For a person to come out and proclaim, ‘ I am a composer and want to create new music.’ is very frightening. It certainly did nothing to improve my social relevance. Most people couldn’t give a shit less that I had a proclivity for creating art. The very idea was inconceivable. What in the hell does a composer contribute to an industrial society? Of course, the desire is still as prevalent as it was when I was four years old and I am constantly composing regardless of the inevitable repercussions. It means nothing at all and has little commercial potential, but hey, I enjoy it. What I did come to realize is the potential of film composition and the concept of a marriage of both an audio and visual medium. It just makes sense. However, it can be just as bleak and devoid of any redeeming aesthetic value as most popular music, but the potential is there.

So how did I venture into the world of audio engineering? Initially, I avoided it like the f**king plague. I began recording music at the same time I felt prepared to pursue a professional career in music. To me they were one in the same. I didn't percieve them as separate mediums. I was always interested in the way sound could be manipulated. I wanted to be able to accurately execute what I had conceived. When I was able to finally hear what I had composed played back, I thought that I had just invented electricity. I was hooked. I had a seemingly romantic affinity with recording equipment-the way it smelled, etc. But the desire to endeavor into engineering as a profession was an idea that I loathed. I was constantly bombarded with musicians approaching me about recording their music. I just had no interest in doing it. I was still on this trip that what I did musically had some sort of real significance and did not want detoured. Naïve - I know.

Somewhere along the way I determined that I possessed skills and these skills could be used to provide services to others. It seemed a more dignified way of doing something I wholeheartedly enjoyed, yet not at the risk of compromising my own compositions. I take music very seriously. The delivery is paramount. There is nothing worse, for me, than hearing great musical works that are sonically compromised. So I guess I am secretly on some lofty crusade to prevent the dissemination of sh**ty SOUNDING music.

Fortunately, I was able to find a niche worthy of propagation. I created an alternative route, yet still on the same predetermined path. I am completely elated to have the ability to be able to pursue what I have chosen. As with any profession there are pros and cons, but I refuse to become jaded. I try to keep it in check regularly.

So there it is, incoherent babble and all.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by picksail:
So there it is, incoherent babble and all.

One man's incoherent babble is another man's Zen Buddhist enlightenment.

I liked your post, and the others on this thread as well.

All yous guys, take comfort in this simple fact:

You are thinking, and feeling. You've demonstrated that, and in that, you are on the path to enlightenment.

So long as you are thinking and feeling, you are on the road to enlightenment. Just add ONE other thing you do, in addition to thinking and feeling:

Waiting.

When you can think, and feel, and wait, you are truly on the path to enlightenment.

There was a glory in everything you look back on and see failure in. There was a soulful glory in each one of those percieved failures. You LIVED. You DID something. You put yourself OUT there, and TRIED. That is not failure. That is success in LIVING.

You only THINK you failed because your expectations were not fulfilled. That is YOUR failure, and yours alone. Nothing wrong with that. You are allowed to fail yourself.

But...

Embrace your failures, and the lessons you've learned from them. Those lessons will be sweeter than your successes EVERY TIME. Why? Because they came harder, and the path to enlightenment is hard. That's what gives your path its beauty, its strength, and its meaning.

It is YOUR path.

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally posted by jacobq


I am curious at other members on this board who at some time in their carreer came to the conclusion and realization that they were never going to be a talented musician but were very good at recording and have an ability to know good music and sound when you hear it. I am sure there are some of you who are talented enough to do both.

well .... I'm a drummer ( although I do from time to time claim to play guitar and piano too)... so not sure if that counts but ... I kinda stopped playing and went turning and twisting the knobs. Not because I though I sucked ... I mean all drummers think they are the best and so did I and still do but I kinda started liking it more on the other side I guess. I don't play all that much any more but I love it when I sit behind the talkback and try to explain a beat to a drummer and they don't get it and I can walk in and play it for them .... hahaha ... LOVE that .... only do it with beats I'm sure I can play though

Sometimes I miss the live playing and it itches ... I'm pretty sure some day I will play live again .. local gigs in local bars for free or something ... just for fun.

[Jules]

I wanted to be a rock start when I was a teenager.

But while on stage I didn't like the fact that folks were looking at me, I was ultra self conscious an uncomfortable about performing. Also I was never a natural songwriter. I only came up with riffs and never found someone to make any sense of them. I was a GOOD rhythm guitarist and band I was in supported the Pretenders & Adam & the Ants around the UK. I did 2 or three "tours". Slept on fans floors... etc... we had managers, 2 record deals (for two different bands) I recorded 1 single and 1 Album. It was fun.

Then my guitar gathered dust for 2 years...

Then I visited a friend working at a studio complex. Thought it was the gig for me, and started as cleaner / gopher in 82'.

I had a solid 'wilderness' period between 90-93 of doing almost NO studio work when the music industry spat me out along with a bunch of other folks during the epic 90's UK financial recession - (I jumped ship and did my Exile on Main Strasse in Berlin 91-93)

I remain a terrific "country strum" guitarist provided the chords & timing ain't too fancy and I help out bands I am recording if they "ain't got that swing" & can grab a guitar off a musician to show em approx. what I want (badly) then hand it back to them to play better.

I still own a Les Paul Standard which as it hasn't been gigged is in remarkably good condition and a beat up 1953 Gibson acoustic that I bought to play on rainy days. Both reside at the studio and get fair use by acts produced there.

I have the stage back-drop from one of the punk bands I was in back in 1978 under my bed and trip over it in the mornings.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by C.Lambrechts
Sometimes I miss the live playing and it itches ... I'm pretty sure some day I will play live again .. local gigs in local bars for free or something ... just for fun.

Just like Andy Wallace.

I was always that kid in the band who knew how the PA worked and owned the 4-track in high school. I went to college as a music production and performance major and loved them both. During my first summer off I took an internship at an Amek/Studer room and never looked back, eventually it turned into a paying gig and the rest is history I guess.

I do miss playing a lot and in the last year I've made it a point to get my chops back together, I try to get together with Mr. Metronome everyday for at least 15 minutes and get out to an open mic or two, do fill-in gigs with cover bands and stuff like that.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Jules
I have the stage back-drop from one of the punk bands I was in back in 1978 under my bed and trip over it in the mornings.

You should bring it down to the studio and show it off. Street cred man! Or at least pull it out and post a pic of it on here.

[adam_w]

Whew. That's a toughie. Started off by wanting to play, and then got bogged down in this whole getting obsessed with recording stuff mire which far overtook the other..

I tell you, one thing player turned engineering mofo brethren/sistren...a good exercise is to dust off whatever it is you need to dust off once in a while, cos being on the other side is fun (never forget the fun...yah....FUN), and beautiful, which is why a lot of us ended up here.

Recording can be stressful, unrewarding and utter pain - but take some time to be the other side of the coin with no end game and when you go back to the other side, I guarantee you'll be closer to how the artist you're dealing with today is.

[David R.]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant
You've demonstrated that, and in that, you are on the path to enlightenment.

Oy vey.

Playing music was the reason I got in to recording. I picked up a 4 track to record the songs that were popping out. Then a reverb to make it sound better. Ohh, look, a delay on sale. Wow, I really need a microphone. And another. And another. And so on, and so on, and so on...
Then a friend would ask me to record them. And a friend of theirs, and so on.

Earily on I realized that I was not going to be a rock star. Didn't have the look or the desire. Got bored with rock and started playing blues, funk, then world music. I'm still playing today, live and in the studio.

Pop and rock have age limits as to being successful. If you play the blues or bluegrass or classical it is less about the age or look and more about if you can play it right. If you no longer desire to play, that is OK. After a few years, you might want to pick it up again. Or not.

Big difference is if you are talking about making a living from playing or recording. I just don't desire to spend that much time on the road, which is what you have to do as a working musician. I went out twice last year and that was plenty. As a studio owner I am much happier having people come to me. Again, no age limit and no one cares if I am 'folically challenged.'

In the studio, I have been luck enough to work with some incredible musicians. Some that are on such a higher level than myself. Take them out of their element and see how human they really are. I may not be able to play down a jazz chart the way some can, but I can play a damn funky raga with a South African feel on the bridge.

Jacob, play if you want to, and not if you don't. It doesn't matter if others are better or faster. To me it is more about the enjoyment.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by David R.


Jacob, play if you want to, and not if you don't. It doesn't matter if others are better or faster. To me it is more about the enjoyment.

[Midlandmorgan]

Like many...I was a musician for a number of years, and got tired of bouncing ideas between cassette machines...went out and bought a Portastudio 2 4 track as a better sketchpad...

Outgrew that, sold it, found a 'real job' that I hated, got fired and went back to playing music...after doing several demo sessions for others, caught the bug, went out and got Cakewalk for Guitarists to do some personal writing and demo work...that did it...I figured I was getting too old and fat to be a 'commodity' anymore, so I may as well sit on the other side of the board for a change.

Since that moment, its been a diagnosed obsession...living, breathing, learning, screwing up, redoing, rearranging...you know the drill...sometimes business is so slow I can't keep food on the table, other times there aren't enough hours in the day.

(Interestingly, since I switched from hobby to profession status, I've been playing out more that ever...often interferes with the studio)

Anyway, I'm in it kneedeep...being (very) close to 50 and essentially barnstorming in this business is...well...excitingly stupid or stupidly exciting - don't know which...but if I didn't do this, I would be the most miserable son of a bitch on the planet, and would likely take my professional frustrations out on friends and family (told you it was a diagnosed obsession)..

Yea - I'm good enough for where I am now...and hopefully I'll be good enough soon to be where I want to be...

[initialsBB]

Hey Jules,
If you don't mind my asking, what was the band you were in?

[alphajerk]

after so many people ive recorded, i have seen better and worse than i... my decision came out of i didnt want to tour. i like recording. i can play most rock instruments so i can relate with every member of the band.

never thought of it tho as better or worse, everyone has their own style.... you either dig it or you dont.

[ron florentine]

Wow....Great Thread!!! Never really just thought of the progression of things until seeing this thread.............Basically started as a guitar freak..went to music school and started playing jazz gigs anywhere i could.....jazz gigs payed hardly any money ....went back to music school got a degree in film scoring and composition.......started doing session work as a guitar player and arranging work and scoring films......money i made saved , bought a recording studio to record my own music....10 years later....recording studio 10 times bigger and have recorded zero for myself but made a living recording albums....only playing i have done are on other people records none for myself! I quess i see it as getting payed to help people realize there dreams not at being less than a musician.......I do miss just playing for myself and wrestled with the issue of make less money and just playing more but those bills keep appearing every four weeks!!!I know there are alot of great musicians turned engineers/producer out in gearslutz land we just need a hit record so we can all just jam for a year or two with no worries!!!!

Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[jtienhaara]

Wow, this is a great thread.

I started building a studio because 1) I enjoyed recording the bands I was in (smalltime ones); 2) I couldn't afford to go to "real" studios anyway; and 3) I'm a bit of a control freak.

#3 has been a bit of a problem for being in bands. Especially in Vancouver where most of the musicians I knew were all dreamy "I'm going to be a rockstar" types who would never even get off their asses to put up posters for a show.

(A show that we would all lose money on because so many venues in Vancouver don't even have in-house sound.)

I quit my last 2 bands a year and a half ago and it took over a year before I started playing music again. I'm now enjoying it more than ever. I used to play guitar (just guitar, I don't believe in "rhythm" vs "lead"). But lately I've been learning drums and plunking around on my crappy Rockwood bass. Music is more fun now than it has been in years.

I do miss the adrenaline rush of live shows. But I don't miss carting gear around, yelling matches with bandmates, always looking for a drummer, always thinking the drummer is a selfish prick, paying for rehearsal studio time, trying to get bandmates to pay for rehearsal studio time, ...

I've never considered being a session musician. Don't think I could do it. But as far as running a studio, I think it's a great way to enjoy music with a few of the biggest pains in the ass taken out. I do think it's important to slot in some downtime to work on your own material though. Not only is it fun, but it often gives you a fresh perspective when you go back to recording / mixing other musicians.

[Ted Nightshade]

Suicide is a real issue for me. It comes up a lot.

Music and recording remain an alternative to suicide.

Realistically speaking there isn't much chance for our unusual approach to music and recording to find a niche in this insane market. I can't get my heart into doing anything redundant, and opportunities are mostly for those who fit into slot A already- in other words, the thoroughly redundant.

I could tell pretty much any act where their blind spots are and what to do to take things to another level artistically, but that would probably in most cases damage their situation logistically and financially. I find invariably the folks out there doing it above the radar are those who place being out there above the art aspects. So my talents such as they are will not be in any kind of demand except for possibly a passionate fanatic here and there...

Nonetheless, I can't wrap my head and heart around any other pursuits, so I continue to do what I don't see or hear being done, and what feels very much needed to me.

Every time I do the reality check in any terms but the artistic, I start scheming on exactly how to do myself in. Guns and bombs are out. Too much of that going on already. Probably a long leap off a high cliff... hard to mess that one up.

But better just to keep focused on art and beauty.

[JMS]

I agree with all that has been said, completely. I did the band thing a got really uncomfortable on stage, drank way too much trying not to freak out and realized that my true instrument for better or for worse was the console/behind the scenes. I really enjoy it and just like being in the band it can get monotoneous, petty, tiresome, etc. I've had "real" jobs off and on throughout and I'm currently in that time right now as I write this. Engineering is draining like no other, but all passions are draining if you take them to the levels that we do. I recently went through the "burn out" phase and finally after 9 months am starting to feel better. I'm now focusing my time on changing my business model and really focusing in on the business side of things more than before, before I venture back into game. I'll get back doing what I love, I'm just trying a new approach and angle to really define what am I best at. I know that tracking doesn't particularly fit my personality like Mixing and Mastering do. Producing though fun is also not where my heart is right now. Besides the other menagerie of questions I'm pondering right now I know that it all takes time to hone a craft. If you're willing to be patient with it you'll always get better.

Peace

[studjo]

goals: recording and playing good music (good = something that means something to me)

ability: dunno - sometimes I think I'm the next Bob Clearmountain sometimes I can't stand myself.

I started because I heard all those crappy recordings from my bands made in different studios. I thought I can do better (big mistake).
I still play live but purely for enjoyment. I did the commercial playing for too long- almost lost the desire to play my little guitar. I quit every paying playing gig now . When the music is boring or plain stupid to me - I won't ever play it.
After I quit the commercial playing thing I found my admiration for the guitar again. I really love it.

During studying music I got all the recording stuff from recording other bands with crappy equipement. The studio got bigger and bigger. So when I decided to stop playing for money I could focus on the other passion - finding sounds that fit the music.

Now I'm the happiest camper I could be. I record and mix quite a bit (sometimes even with amazing musicians) and I play what I want to play without thinking in terms of money or marketing.

brabble brabble ...

Jo

[Stick]

Interseting thread... it's facinating to see how many different roads to where we are there are.

For me... took piano lessons as a kid, wrote a few songs and played them live for my friends as teenager with the help of a teacher who had a Roland D-50 and a Mac Plus (remember Opcode Sequencer 2.6?). Learned a few classical piano pieces to audtion for college, and got in and ended up being a piano perfomace major. But, I spent as much time in the schools recording studio as I did in the practice room! Out of college, I moved to Nashville, only because my new wife and I didn't think we wanted to live in NYC or LA. I got a gig as the Tape Dub Boy at a jingle company. Then I talked them into buying this newfangled hard disk recording thing. Then I started writing and producing demos, generally playing all the parts and often singing my own vocals (I'm a crappy singer.). Then I actually produced a few masters. Then I moved to LA to write and produce pop tunes. Along the way I've learned to program tracks, produce vocals, and mix. I've scored films, done sound design, and written, produced and mixed songs and whole records.

I play the piano everyday. It may only be banging out a drum groove on a keyboard, or laying in a pad for the tune I'm mixing, but my entire perspective starts at the keyboard. I knew in college I didn't really have the chops or the desire to attain the chops to be a "hot" session player, and once I got married, I sure didn't want to be on the road playing shows.

I also think of what I can do in ProTools and Logic as "playing an instrument". It's taken a lot of years to "get good" at it much like learning to play the piano.

The key for me though, is that I get the chance to try it all. I love the process of a song from nothing but an idea to writing the lyric, finding the melody, building the track or arrangement, recording it well, mixing it, and then having someone "get it". I enjoy being hired to just mix, or just program. I enjoy doing all of it on the same project too.

I'm not a tortured artist type... I play because it's part of my chosen career path. I also play in worship bands at church... but that's for a different reason too, and it gives me that live buzz. I love what I do for a living, especially during those periods where I actually make enough bread to call it a living... HA!

Peace,
stick

[drundall]

Upon a recent post gig reflection in a bar I though that perhaps the most useful skill is producer/engineers who are also accomplished drummers. This is where it can really fall apart for me. If it's possible to go in a lay down a great drum track that would be worlds better than a heavily edited, soundreplaced bad take by a poor player.

For me this is the most difficult area...drummers.....

[enharmonic]

Originally posted by drundall
Upon a recent post gig reflection in a bar I though that perhaps the most useful skill is producer/engineers who are also accomplished drummers. This is where it can really fall apart for me. If it's possible to go in a lay down a great drum track that would be worlds better than a heavily edited, soundreplaced bad take by a poor player.

For me this is the most difficult area...drummers.....

Good point...and the only hard and fast axiom I hold regarding all music.

It dosen't matter how talented the other musicians are...if your drummer is poo, you have nothing.

I can tolerate a band with a horrible singer if the music is good...that is why I can appreciate the Flaming Lips. Though I prefer to listen to guitarists who know their instrument, I can live with chugga chugga man if he's tight...but a stinky drummer...shit...I don't care if you have Elvis or Frank Sinatra singing...you're hosed. Likewise, I don't care if you have Warren Haynes or John McLaughlin...or even Jimi Hendrix on guit-fiddle...stinky drummer...forget it.

Then there's bassists...lol...man I could rant all day about this kind of stuff...but the bottom line is that if the drummer is ass...the whole thing is ass.

[Dot]

Actually, the more I began realizing my goals as an engineer of working with big artists and labels - the less I found I wanted to do it. I was always more interested in production and artist development rather than just being a hired gun as an engineer.

I've been a studio rat since I was 17. I did the whole NYC studio thang. I'm much h