SmartAV Tango DAW Controller

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by TRW

I wonder how long it will take them to allow the user to freely configure the interface (they mention working on it on the Tango site).

I am not sure what you've read, but maybe that was about the Edit Panel, which is freely configurable.

I don't think they'll will open up the layout of the console. Offcourse as a user you can let them know what you like and what you don't like, if there are more users with the same idea's, it's very likely they'll change the design, but so far, the GUI design has gotten little complaints.

I do have some GUI complaints but those are about very little details. The GUI works and is quite inspiring.

Originally Posted by TRW

I'd love to be able to remove the stock EQ or Dyn and I also wish steinberg would remove them from the channel altogether. How does it work with Logic where there aren't default channel dynamics in place? Does that part of the screen even do anything?

Logic does have a 'stock EQ' its 'channel EQ' or its 'Linear Phase EQ' is displayed in the EQ section if one is enabled. Or you can quickly add a channel EQ by double tapping on the empty EQ field.

I agree with you that most people do not use the stock EQ's. Mapping of 3rd party plugins will be supported in the future. They're working on a way to make it happen, but it's not an easy task.

In the meantime, it not be so crazy to compare your favourite 3rd party EQ to the stock EQ, you might be suprised, unless the 3rd party plug add something like saturation or softclipping you can match it for the most part. There's only a couple of EQ plugs that really are head and shoulders above the stock plugs and I can count those on one hand. Offcourse this is my opinion. The control surface enables you at least to mix without staring at a computer screen which for me translates in better mixes.

Originally Posted by TRW

I could use the extra screen real estate to display a large Arc and slightly larger inserts and sends view as well as visible I/O routing, I don't see auto modes on the pictures, does that exist (touch, latch etc).

IMHO the inserts and the ARC are really big enough when you sit behind the console.

Automation modes are visible on the channels just above the channel number or on the ARC. You can easily alter auto modes on the ARC while holding a modifier key on the expert panel on the left.

Right now only 'isolate / read / write' are visible or 'read & write' which is basically 'touch'.

You can see the automation is a bit Cubendo oriented at the moment, while it works great with Logic I hope they'll make it visually more matching to Logic when you select the Logic profile on the console.

Originally Posted by TRW

Will this thing ever work with Pro Tools?

Looking forward to the videos though HHaynes...

-T

I only briefly tried the Alpha, which didn't work well yet, but I expect this is going to work really well. (there have already been 2 or 3 other versions after I tried!) Offcourse the limitation of HUI are there. But you still get all the benefits of track selection via the MonArc and switching automation modes. Also plugin control is still going to be pretty good.

[TRW]

Dankjewel Geert!

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

I am not sure what you've read, but maybe that was about the Edit Panel, which is freely configurable.

I read this: Smart AV will be updating the library of icons and controls periodically, and we are planning to make the graphics editable by the users at some stage in the future for total customisation. From the SmartAv site. Would be nice if there was some customisation, I see this product and perhaps the JazzMutant Dexter as the future....

Logic does have a 'stock EQ'....

I'm well aware of that! I'm a logic user often, note I said 'dynamics'.

In the meantime, it not be so crazy to compare your favourite 3rd party EQ to the stock EQ.

Yes that may be true, however my point is not about sound quality, it's about streamlining the interface to what 'I' would like to 'see' - if I can get to the point where all the stuff I don't use is hidden then the GUI of any software becomes more transparent.

IMHO the inserts and the ARC are really big enough when you sit behind the console.

Cool I'm really eager to try one out. Will have to organise this year. On a side note, I wish the UK distro would put the price on the website... not being able to access that quickly bugs me!

Automation modes are visible on the channels just above the channel number or on the ARC. Right now only 'isolate / read / write' are visible or 'read & write' which is basically 'touch'.

With all the new features in Cubase/Nuendo it would be nice to have a more detailed auto view. On a personal note the automation in logic is a pain and I really hope they can improve its user experience with the Tango...

Good to know it works in HUI mode with PT at least.

-Tom

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by TRW

I read this: Smart AV will be updating the library of icons and controls periodically, and we are planning to make the graphics editable by the users at some stage in the future for total customisation. From the SmartAv site. Would be nice if there was some customisation, I see this product and perhaps the JazzMutant Dexter as the future....


I'm well aware of that! I'm a logic user often, note I said 'dynamics'.

I see, I didn't read that. It's not unlikely some tweaking will be possible in the future!
But probably not as on the Dexter, basically that box is build around a modular platform, which Jazzmutant had already established.

And there is a 'stock dynamic' plugin in Logic as well, just called 'compressor'. Basically this works the same as with the EQ, the compressor plugin is shown on the channelstrip when inserted or can be inserted with a doubletap. Mind you this does not really show the same curve as the plugin, but you do see all parameters and the ratios which is basically all you need IMHO. Gain reduction is offcourse the next logical phase but that is very dependant on what info Logic transmits to the controller and I don't believe it can do that yet.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by TRW

On a personal note the automation in logic is a pain and I really hope they can improve its user experience with the Tango...

I completely agree! Most of the features I need are there though, like 'latch' mode and a shortcut for 'write to end'. But how do I do snapshot automation on EQ plugins. There are dedicated copy/paste buttons on every plugin, but I haven't found a shortcut for those, and pasting new settings in latch mode or write mode with only plugin auto enabled doesn't seem to work the way it should or as it does in PT.

I would like to add for outsiders: this is in Logic, this has nothing to do with the Tango!

[TRW]

I emailed to see if I can get a demo...

-T

[HHaynes]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

I completely agree! Most of the features I need are there though, like 'latch' mode and a shortcut for 'write to end'. But how do I do snapshot automation on EQ plugins. There are dedicated copy/paste buttons on every plugin, but I haven't found a shortcut for those, and pasting new settings in latch mode or write mode with only plugin auto enabled doesn't seem to work the way it should or as it does in PT.

I would like to add for outsiders: this is in Logic, this has nothing to do with the Tango!

Tango is not going to be able to totally circumvent the implementation of the host. It can only expose the features that the DAW makes available. if the automation system lacks depth on the host, the Tango is not going to change that.

One of the nice things I saw at the show regarding Cubase 5 is that it has most of the Nuendo 4 automation mode features, so it will be very robust and should map well to the expert panel layout on Tango.

I talked to David Hannay about their roadmap for implementing an SDK, and he said that was in the priority list right after MCU support is done. BTW - my understanding is the the full HUI mode implementation was ported over from the Pro series consoles - and is complete, so I think the only things they have left is the MCU mappings and controls.

[Nowak]

I have been using Tango (HUI ALPHA) with PT and it's all working very well, still in Alpha obviously but things are progressing nicely. I have full metering on Tango and MonARC works great. I came off 16 fader ProControl and I actually enjoy using Tango with ProTools more than the ProControl, it feels alot nicer, I was pleasantly surprised how well it worked, control is very quick and there is no lag/chocking at all. I actually owned a Mackie HUI in the day and it was a very frustrating piece of gear, Tango operates NOTHING like it.

It is my opinion that Tango can be considered a very viable controller for ProTools.

Stef

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by TRW

I emailed to see if I can get a demo...

-T

Hi TRW,

We'll be showing the Tango and fader pack (total of 20 faders) at the Broadcast Live Expo at Earl's Court next month, so pop down if you're able to

[HHaynes]

OK folks - the Tango videos showing Nuendo/Cubase integration are up. Bear in mind - they are *not* streaming videos - but should be downloaded and played locally on your own machine. They were shot in HD and I encoded them to a pretty generous 720p data rate. At 4+ minutes per clip, the file sizes are *not* trivial. You should use the "Save Link As..." or like feature in your web browser.

Also bear in mind that I encoded these *both* in mp4 and WMV9 formats - if you have QT7 player or other hander that will play back H.264 encoded files - I recommend you grab the mp4 versions of these files since they're smaller.

Here's the list of vids.

Nuendo Chapter 1
Track Selection & Ergonomic Spreads
[mp4] [WMV]

Nuendo Chapter 2
Automation
[mp4] [WMV]

Nuendo Chapter 3
Transport, Jog & Edit
[mp4] [WMV]

Nuendo Chapter 4
Mix & Control Room
[mp4] [WMV]

Cubase Chapter 1
Transport, Navigation & Zoom
[mp4] [WMV]

Cubase Chapter 2
Rotary Encoders - EQ
[mp4] [WMV]

Cubase Chapter 3
Rotary Encoders - Plugin Control
[mp4] [WMV]

These will probably be up on the SmartAV site in a few days. Also, I expect that streaming versions will show up on YouTube via the audioMIDI.com web site - who's the newest US dealer for SmartAV.

I already see a minor tweak I need to make to one of the Cubase videos for a slight color correction issue that skewed the colors on the opening card (but the rest of the video is fine). If anyone finds an issue with any of the files (save for local download issues), or if you have any questions or comments, please let me know. Thanks!

H3

[TRW]

Thanks for the vids HHaynes!! and the heads up for the Earls Court show...

Nice one guys.

Tom

[HHaynes]

Thanks - I don't get the Earls Court reference... do you have a link, perhaps? Cheers!

[TRW]

Hey sorry Houston, was in a rush and was thanking multiple people at once (mrickaby) for letting me know about the Tango at the show soon... I may pop down and check it out.

Your videos are selling me... I have a few questions that I will come back with later on.

Thanks Tom

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by HHaynes

Thanks - I don't get the Earls Court reference... do you have a link, perhaps? Cheers!

Broadcast Video Expo: 17 - 19 February 2009, Earls Court 2 London

We'll have the Tango there with a bunch of other Apple, audio, video, storage and networking goodies! Should be a good event

[mikesilence]

What about Tango and Logic??

[HHaynes]

Have you checked out the Logic integration videos on the SmartAV web site?

My understanding is that the Logic integration is as deep as Nuendo/Cubase or Pyramix. But I don't know anything more than what I've seen in that video.


Smart AV - TANGO -Smart Console

[Nowak]

I'll be doing Tango/Logic and also Tango/ProTools videos in a few weeks, Tango and Logic work really nice! as deep as Cubendo from what I see......ProTools is limited by the HUI format but still works really nicely. I will be posting a minute long video in the coming days showing the console working with ProTools HD.

Stef

[TRW]

This thing is amazing. Nowak - looking forward to seeing the PT HD vids, the grouping and things are sweet in Cubendo/Logic, so I'm really interested in how it rocks the Hui mode.

May get a demo next week as I am heading south!

-T

[Nowak]

I can tell you that MonARC totally works with ProTools which is really great, full channel meters also........things like "mem" swiping also work perfectly......Joe's even working on trying to get EQ and Compressor graphs happening! which is something even the Euphonix Sys5MC won't allow.

I personally think PT users will be excited by Tango.

Stef

[postprosound]

If Tango can get EQ, Compression and pan to show up on the surface in PT. Sign me up!

[HHaynes]

Side note: The Cubase/Nuendo videos are now posted on the SmartAV site - rendered to a smaller frame but it also means a much smaller video file size (all are <20MB).

Smart AV - TANGO -Smart Console

[TRW]

Just tried this thing out!

In short it freaking rocks!!!! I'm a bit hyped now, tired and rambling.

I 99% sure I'm getting one, just figuring out the finance.

Best controller concept out there IMO after non-extensive testing. It is future proof, feels GREAT, solid and ergonomic. The fact that it's brain runs separately from the DAW means the functionality is there with many platforms.

Ergo Spreads = easy and effective
Grouping = downright sick! hidden grouping independant of DAW is ever so nice.
Encoders and faders = nice feeling
Screen = excellent, monarch provides lots of info and great feedback.
Touch responsiveness is very decent.
Copy and paste settings across channels is incredible!
Last touched parameter to channel encoders = great
Motorised Pot = very useful and great for tactile feel.
Surround Panner good enough but not as crazy as JM Dexter which has awesome multitouch panner! Stil it is perfect for most work.

Asked the guys if they could suggest the following (it may be possible, anyone?):

Copying fader levels and pasting to prefade aux send levels to take initial control room balance to headphone mix as starting point, nice for non-PT users who want the 'copy to sends' feature from HD in any platform. Fingers crossed.

Build quality feels expensive and looks great.

I rarely looked at the DAW in over an hour as most can be achieved from the Tango.

On-Screen Keyboard is very nice (although not quite as fast as hardware) and apple/alt/ctrl can be locked down to do standard shortcuts, however the edit panel smashes it there! Seems easier than the Euphonix to set up custom edit buttons.

Sorry Euphonix, this is nicer than a 5-MC and half the cost. And can be updated over time with little change to hardware interface as it is all about the screen GUI. Which may even end up customisable?

Boot time not too bad, it went down once but no biggie (dodgy pyramix beta) software carried on and it was back online pretty quickly. More extensive testing needed.

All the usual inject and chair modes are great and monarch good.

In the flesh the monarch is just the right size and the screen doesn't feel cramped at all. You guys were right! The glass touch screen overlay is solid and you can really prod the thing as opposed to caress it!

Quick question for Nowak or other PT users:

I tried it with PT8 and could instantiate a plugin insert but the plugin list always rescanned upon change plugin command which takes ages if you have a large list. I was told it only scans once and only scans again after power down so it has a cache which makes it quick during a session. Didn't work for me - working there?

Also it was screwy with PT as none of the plug-in parameters could be controlled. They would update from the software but not update software from the Tango.

I'm positive this was an issue with this particular company and their setup as opposed to the great demo I had on a Pyramix rig with someone else, which was working very well. Nuendo is apparently the most integrated.

Do these all work for you Nowak in HD?

Thanks Tom

[Nowak]

Hey Tom, Tango rocks hey! I have a 32 channel set up now and I'm in heaven!!!

To answer your questions:

About PT Plug in instantiation: Unfortunately as with Logic there is no way to cache plug ins so it refreshes every time it gets the list, this is a problem from Digi (PT) and Apple (Logic) and most definitely sucks, I'm not sure what the guys have planned for this, I know it would bother them and be trying to work something out I'm sure.

Controlling PT Plug ins: When the last beta software was released there was a bug that caused a problem with controlling plug ins, this has now been rectified and working ok, due to the limitations of the HUI format (BAHH DIGI) you can only control 4 parameters at a time and scroll through pages to the following parameters. Joseph Narai who is one of the mad geniuses at SAV has got the EQ graph working with the stock digi EQ3 7 bander, it works ok, a little course but definitely works! He's going to try and get the compressor graphs working also - Trying is the word though because of the HUI drama.

I agree whole heartedly, Tango is all over the Euphonix Sys5MC.

Stef.

[dlmorley]

If I worked in the box, this would be my only choice.
Almost worth thinking about!

[TRW]

Originally Posted by Nowak

Hey Tom, Tango rocks hey! I have a 32 channel set up now and I'm in heaven!!!

To answer your questions:

About PT Plug in instantiation: Unfortunately as with Logic there is no way to cache plug ins so it refreshes every time it gets the list, this is a problem from Digi (PT) and Apple (Logic) and most definitely sucks, I'm not sure what the guys have planned for this, I know it would bother them and be trying to work something out I'm sure.

Controlling PT Plug ins: When the last beta software was released there was a bug that caused a problem with controlling plug ins, this has now been rectified and working ok, due to the limitations of the HUI format (BAHH DIGI) you can only control 4 parameters at a time and scroll through pages to the following parameters. Joseph Narai who is one of the mad geniuses at SAV has got the EQ graph working with the stock digi EQ3 7 bander, it works ok, a little course but definitely works! He's going to try and get the compressor graphs working also - Trying is the word though because of the HUI drama.

I agree whole heartedly, Tango is all over the Euphonix Sys5MC.

Stef.

Hey Stef, shame about the plugin list thing. That is a real dissapointment but hopefully it can be fixed at the DAW end. Surely Apple will embrace it, even if digi not.

Still the Tango will be good even if you have mouse to instantiate a plugin. Its not a real big issue.

Nice to know about plugin control. Is that 4 parameters on encoders at one time, thus explaining the reason a lot of the encoders did nothing or displayed nothing when I tried it, thus paging required 4 para at a time?

Cheers T

[Nowak]

Yep that's right,

4 parameters per page, just like the HUI.......I know Digi has it's own interest in mind but the HUI protocol could do with an update considering it's 10 years old now and the HUI doesn't even exist anymore.

[TRW]

To be fair it would be nice if Digi went full Mackie Control instead of HUI. That would unlock quite a bit.

Thanks Stef. I may pick your brains later on a few specific things if you don't mind!

-T

[Nowak]

will answer any questions I can! so pick away.

Stef

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by TRW

Just tried this thing out!

In short it freaking rocks!!!! I'm a bit hyped now, tired and rambling.
Thanks Tom

Hi Tom,

Did you make it down to the BVE show? I saw so many people at the show who loved the Tango that I've got no chance of putting names to faces! If you were at BVE, did you see it on the eMerging stand or our Jigsaw stand? Since you mention Pyramix, I'm guessing you got some good time with it on the eMerging stand as we were showing it with Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools and Digital Performer as part of an audio for post video workflow.

Good to hear you liked it though... getting to play with it for those few days was excellent! I'll second everything you said there - it's a great controller!

Give me a shout if I can help you out with this any further.

Mark

[Nowak]

How are things working with DP?

I know I'm just showing off but here's my 32 fader setup. Heaven!!!

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by Nowak

How are things working with DP?

I wouldn't like to definitively say it's flawless as I was only tinkering with it while demoing the Tango on our stand, so I haven't looked at deep integration, but the HUI control of DP looks really good. I didn't get a chance to test the Mackie control with DP, but if that works like everything else does it should be awesome. All I can say is that it did everything I asked it to at the speed I wanted it to, didn't fall over, and seemed to work just as well as any other HUI controller I've ever used with DP.

We've got a demo Tango here at Jigsaw, so I'll try to get some quality time with it early next week and let you know how integration with DP goes on closer examination.