SmartAV Tango DAW Controller

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by TRW

[*]The edit panel is so very easy to configure and when I made my first button in 10seconds I was thinking how fast the platform will be once you take a day to set it up. The virtkey panel assign - letting you do usual shortcuts as single press is great and would be a simple way of programming.

Will get even easier in the new software version!

Originally Posted by TRW

[*]Locators wouldn't work at all - taking me to the end of the session every time. I know they will work, as they do in Logic, but for the time being the active display (and edit panel) can be used for setting markers - that worked just fine. Still these press and hold temp locators were a big deal for me.[/LIST]

I am not sure, maybe HHaynes will chime in, he'll know for sure. I think I read that the locators work with Nuendo but not with Cubase in that software version. I am sure this will be solved.

Originally Posted by TRW

[*]PSP, URS, Sonnox and Sonalksis plugins mapped well to the encoders in that the controls worked very well, but a large issue here. Some plugins report odd values for their controls, where the DAW may say LF @ +3dB the Tango will read +4.5dB, so working by number is no good. Use your ears. To be honest I would use a mouse to edit many plugins and grab one of the active controls when I need to automate or tune something in by feel with my eyes shut etc.[*]Some plugins provide a nice value in the DAW (say in %) but the Tango sometimes displays the parameter in numbers like 0.4678 - PSP Nitro for example. Again ears not eyes.

What you see with the PSP plugins, is because of the crossplatform coding of those plugins. (what values do you see on the automation lanes in Cubase? In Logic, it's also those weird values, which don't match the GUI, and this is what you see on the controller.) Waves is also a mess. But it's up to PSP and Waves to solve this. Actually the new PSP EQ's don't have this 'problem'. Maybe they took notice after I mailed them.

[TRW]

Good news Geert!

I'm not bothered about the plugins as I know this is what Cubase reports the controls to read. So its fine with me.

I'm 100% all the little things will get solved over time.

SmartAV seem to have really been on top of the updates alread. Need to find out more about the new software for Nuendo/Cubase - I hear it is very very cool.

-T

[BlackBackDrop]

Great info...

I am thinking of buying the Tango so this post is very valuable. Stav put me in touch with Emerging - Home they are the UK distributor.

[TRW]

Had my first demo with Emerging, they are good to deal with.

I need to contact them again actually...

Talk to Chris or Andrew there - I believe Andrew is the Tango expert...

-T

[TRW]

A few more thoughts - would love to hear Houstons views, especially as he's a Nuendo guy.

Can I just saw how completely and utterly ridulously cool the edit panel is? So easy to set up, I had a blast with that this morning. I found a few cool ways to set it up for adding new tracks to a project, cycle markers etc.

Trying to find a cunning way to let me rename tracks from the editpanel/virtkey without having to use the mouse to double click.

Anyway I would love to see (disclaimer it may do some of this already, it is DEEP!):

The ability to hide the Cubase Dyn/EQ on the main display. I would like these replaced by an enlarged insert and send view, where I can access individual window open buttons for each plug-in on an insert - and turn them on and off, assign sends etc.

With the free screen real estate cleared by removing the EQ/Dyn slots - I would love to see an input source assign. The output assign in the pan section is great but I'd like to see one for assigning inputs.

Which leads on to my next point:

What makes PT so fast is the target specific and sequential assign modes for inputs etc. Now I know some of this is available in other DAWs, but I would love to see the Tango allow me to apply a control to a selection. The way I see Tango - it is like a computer assistant with 100 hands that can press and fade at once, all without the DAW ever knowing. Thus I feel these kind of things could be done. It would even the playing field betwen all platforms.

For example - I would like to select tracks 1-8 by wiping on the Arc or inject points and then perform sequential assigns for inputs... tracking would be very quick. Essentially do the kind of things Duality can do in the analogue routing domain.

I'd like to see copy/paste on inserts - effectively Tango could copy the plugin parameters and then load a new one on a designated track and then paste the settings in, this should be possible on Tango even if the DAW can't (Cubase for example - Logic and PT murder it here).

Route selection would be nice, so I could just wipe across the Arc/Injects to route all my drums to my drumbuss.

Mono tracks in Cubase that go to a mono group still display a pan crosshair - I would love to see that removed to reflect the fact there is no panner in Cubase.

A stereo track with two independant panners (L+R) - not tried yet, but I'm not sure if it displays two pan crosshairs, or how you actually access each side.

On the Arc you can minimise your groups (flatten or expand), which means I can collapse 13 tracks of drums onto a single fader to increase the efficiency of the 8 faders on the controller (once I have the group set) - however whilst the MonArc displays a flattened group, the faders and controller display still see all 13.

Therefore it only saves MonArc space and not fader space, I'm sure this worked in Pyramix when I got a demo?? Anyone? Do i have to wipe mode the channels I want, leaving one on the surface that is in the group?

I found a few issues with Cubase automation today. You can put a track in read or read/write but I couldn't turn auto off once enabled without manually doing it in the DAW, seems like a bug?

-Tom

[Geert van den Berg]

I have little time, so I just read over your post quickly.

If you want to turn of automation on a track, can't you hit 'isolate' and then select the track or range of tracks on the MonArc?

[TRW]

Thanks, will try that again tomorrow. I'm sure I did (can't remember), but I'm busy too, trying to cram it all in and give this thing a deep test while I have it.

-T

[TheBoss]

I was thinking of getting this unit but with rumors that Euphonix releasing a new unit between MC pro and Artist series with decent price and to compete with this unit I think I will wait. These are all rumors but the rumors come from reliable sources. I think tango might have to cut prices on this unit to compete with Euphonix. Little disappointed that this unit did not take off as most would of thought but I guess its the steep price. This market imo is going to get very competitive. From what I heard Euphonix is going to dominate this market with their new unit but I guess it remains to be seen.

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by TheBoss

I was thinking of getting this unit but with rumors that Euphonix releasing a new unit between MC pro and Artist series with decent price and to compete with this unit I think I will wait. These are all rumors but the rumors come from reliable sources. I think tango might have to cut prices on this unit to compete with Euphonix. Little dissappointed that this unit did not take off as most would fo thought but I guess its the steep price. This market imo is going to get very competitive. From what I heard Euphonix is going to dominate this market with their new unit but I guess it remains to be seen.

I haven't heard any rumours about a new surface from Euphonix, but I'm definitely going to search the web for more info!

The reason I was replying was your point about pricing... the cost of the main base unit will be going up on 15th April here in the UK by about £800 (about US$1100 as the exchange rate is right now) for the same reason as everything else going up I expect - weak pound and increasing import costs. There are similar increases on both of the extensions, but all in all it's about a 15% increase on each part.

Mark

[TRW]

I hadn't realised the Tango hadn't taken off?

Euphonix are going to have to work hard to win over my mind, the MC5 is great but twice the cost of the MC and does almost half as much, twice as slowly. Fader grouping and ergonomic spreads on the Tango are so fast compared to sys5 MC.

The Mix and Control seem to not be reliable at all, and while a full high end 5 system is amazing (swap mode etc) - the Tango is brilliant and getting better with each update.

I really would recommend demo-ing one. I think it should be a solid platform for a very long time.

-T

[TheBoss]

Originally Posted by mrickaby

I haven't heard any rumours about a new surface from Euphonix, but I'm definitely going to search the web for more info!

The reason I was replying was your point about pricing... the cost of the main base unit will be going up on 15th April here in the UK by about £800 (about US$1100 as the exchange rate is right now) for the same reason as everything else going up I expect - weak pound and increasing import costs. There are similar increases on both of the extensions, but all in all it's about a 15% increase on each part.

Mark

I know a few studios who would like to try this unit but the price is too steep for that unit and the increase in price is going to give them hard time to dominate the market as more and more competitors will hit the street this year. This is not smart move but then again they don't need smart I guess lol.

[TRW]

I personally thought the Tango was cheap for what it offered, but the price increase is a bummer.

-T

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by TRW

I personally thought the Tango was cheap for what it offered, but the price increase is a bummer.

-T

I agree with Tom - for what it does, the Tango sells at an amazing price. If it were any cheaper, it wouldn't do any justice to the quality of the unit. SmartAV know they have a really cool surface and that price doesn't sell it short... having said that, the price increase isn't wonderful news.

[Nowak]

Tango is a very unique piece, I doubt that Euphonix will do anything unique compared to Tango and I would guess it would be made in China.

Anyone that has actually seen/felt Tango would know how incredibly built it is, I just can't see Euphonix doing something this well built for the cost. Tango is built like a large format board. I can actually sit back and rest my feet on the arm rest of my 32 fader board!

We shall see what comes!

[TRW]

Hey Stef how do you find setting up the edit panel in Logic/ProTools?

Its stupidly good in Cubendo.

With the forthcoming logic 9 I am very interested in that package combo - logc+tango.

Curious about the new SSL DAW platform too - bit close to April Fools for me to believe it, but they have been developing the Sydec platform for a while and been super cagey about it.

Good news though - old SS mixer had Hui implementation so I imagine it wouldn't be too tricky for SmartAV to get it running with the Soundscape mixer and then I'd love to see an actual engine for it eventually.

-T

[TRW]

Originally Posted by Nowak

Tango is built like a large format board. I can actually sit back and rest my feet on the arm rest of my 32 fader board!

100% true

[Nowak]

I haven't really gotten in deep programming the edit panel for Logic....just a few little things.

I have programmed a nice one for ProTools however. I never use the keyboard now in PT sessions, it's brilliant!!

Is Logic 9 around the corner?

I have just had another week of exeptional mixing.

UnFuching beleivable.

[TRW]

Good to know you are loving the edit panel with PT.

I believe Logic 9 is very very close. I hope they get the editing and automation right, then I will switch to it.

-T

[Nowak]

Interesting!!

Stef

[HHaynes]

I've been busy of late - and haven't kept up with this thread as much recently. I'm in the middle of a reality show demo reel and have just finished the sound design and rough mix with temp music in place. Now I get to go through and create a tempo map based on the temp and then get to work on the music tomorrow (the fun part).

I'm really enjoying working with the Tango both against Nuendo 4 and Cubase 5. The way I'm working now has "matured" a bit since the first round of videos I created at the beginning of the year. As I create new Edit Panel layouts I'll publish them for other folks to try out - though it will take some work "under the hood" to place some macros, project logical editor presets and other host-side files in place in order for everything to work.

I'm really loving the macro buttons on the extension bay - it really speeds up the workflow on everything from applying Alt+SHIFT to slip audio events using the mouse to triggering PLE presets and saving/exporting the project. it's really amazing how fast I can move around a project now. I hope to do some new videos soon to show some of that workflow, but for now I've got to get back to the project.

[TRW]

One little update from Musikmesse.

My issue with the Cubase transport temp locators was my fault. Apparently if you set the Cubase transport to display time-code, the Tango can lock to it and then the temp locators on the right hand side of the unit will work in Cubase and not jump to the end of the project.

So that should be solved.

I was told the forthcoming software update should allow users to reconfig the entire display to show what you want, in colours of your choice etc. This is huge for me.

I was also told a multi-point touchscreen version may be in the works in a year or so. There may or should be a possible upgrade plan for single touch Tango users, but to be honest I'm not sure how much multi-touch would bring to the table. Tango is great as is.

Messe was cool.

-T

[Nowak]

Yeah, that's another brilliant thing about the console, I think Joe and co have got some great stuff planned.......

How was musikmesse? Being down here I don't get the chance to do the big shows, I think we have a SMPTE convention here this year however which is always pretty cool.

Did you meet David Hannay?

I'm currently mixing a Jazz guitar album that I produced and played on and Tango makes life sooooooooo good. I actually love the board more now than when I first got it.

Stef

[TRW]

Messe is cool, very large. To be fair, what with a few beers in the evenings - we didn't get to see everything we wanted.

I only caught a distro on the Smart AV booth instead of a developer/SmartAV member, which would have been cool as I have some questions.

I hear there is some great stuff planned though.

I really want to see input assign like you can outputs. I also would like to see stereo metering. Plus the plugin list cache in Logic.

I'm pretty much convinced I am migrating to Logic and that part is annoying as even the little Euphonix Artist series can do input/output routing and plugin instantiation is very fast. Sends can also be assigned there - so Tango needs some stuff to beat it there.

In terms of pure speed and unlocking your mind from the computer, Tango cannot be beaten.

-T

[La Forest Gray]

I will be ordering mine next week Tuesday, and have researched all the info that I could find on line. Seeing that you have hands-on experience, I was hoping that you could give me some insight.

(*) What is a good front-end for Logic with the Tango, because I am looking to move away from the DIGI 003 (replace it with a rack for PT 8).

I've been looking at the Apogee Symphony set-up & the Apogee Ensemble. I will still need to connect my outboard gear.

Thanks

[TRW]

Apogee rig is decent. Just got an Ensemble myself to run with my portable rig, Tango included.

I will let you know what I think. Just spent most of my week working on a Prism Orpheus and have been very impressed. Nice thing is you can stack them (up to 12 at 44.1) I think, which the Ensemble can't do.

If you need more and can afford Orpheus, Apogee AD/DAX series or SSL Alpha all worth a look at various price points.

Tango rocks by the way. Just got mine a few days ago.

-T

[HHaynes]

Just a quick FYI - SmartAV has released a new set of firmware for their Tango console with some major enhancements for all platforms. Aside from HUI support for Pro Tools, they've also done some major re-factoring across the board (for all engines) to streamline the mapping of remote commands to Edit Panels/Keys/Buttons. Also, the Nuendo interface now supports MIDI and Instrument channels - and now maps Quick Controls to the rotary encoders for direct access to track parameters. This is a really big deal for being able to control/automate plug-ins and instruments from the Tango Console.

Here's a detailed list of all of the fixes/features for Nuendo/Cubase:

Nuendo
· 2.3.4.466
· Fixed record button (was unreliable) and made pressing the record button
while recording drop out of record and continue playing.
· Prevented Jog Wheel from sending messages while recording
· Fixed MIDI plug-in instantiation bug
· OS flag added (as workaround for Nuendo Mac/PC difference in MIDI plug-in
instantiation bug)
· 2.3.4.460
· fixed MIDI plugin instantiation slot for PC (but broke it for Mac – see known
issues)
· fixed incorrect channels being used in OpenPluginWindow
· removed no effect display bug and made the encoder page retry debugs only
output if timeout
· bug fix of inst and QC slot select was bypassing slot 0 or 1
· using encoder page value determined by parameter 0 text values and waiting
for correct states instead of times ... makes plug-ins more reliable and faster
· now supports instruments window open/close (Houston)
· active module now sends correct active channel
· track select improvements - using new plug-in exists array to speed selection
for tracks with no plug-ins present. Also using new track selection algorithm
with new non-engfunc return call of track select message. (Houston)
· 2.3.4.412
· fixed bug which limited the routing info to the first 112 channels only (channels
> 112 would have no panner or routing info displayed on Tango)
· fixed bug which prevented assignment of groups 9-23 to the Tango and Iggy
group buttons.
· Server stops listening while connected
· instrument names now have 3 states indicated by characters in front of the
name. (unknown type, instr type, non-instr type)
· Instrument names now load correctly when you change the channel (as well
as on the active channel when Tango/Nuendo startsup).
· fixing instrument name coming up properly
· fixed a bug where random parameters would load on thwe instrument slot
even though there was no instrument loaded on the channel in
Cubase/Nuendo
· The plug lists are stored (all three types) and get loaded as they should.
· Instrument & Plug-in parameter loading is fixed. well kind of, few more bugs.
· fixed QControls params in modules that were accidentally changed
· various fixes, including midi & instrument plug-in scans
· fixed VST2 plug-in parameter text not updated for min or max values (Ramine
and Stav-a long time ago!)
· thread, socket and port debug on receive error
· thread, socket and port debug on connect
· Added Mac support for NuendoConsoleModule
· fixed up win32 defines in smartav.h after nikco mac integration
· Added Mac support for NuendoConsoleModule
· NUE: increased connection timeout before throwing error (now 60 seconds
with not all connections).
· NUE: tidy some connection debugs
· fixed Edit List module # error message (was showing 5 instead of 2!)
· Final TCP connection tweaks. - should now be rock solid (famous last words)!
· instrument scan is working again
· on MIDI channels on slot 9 Instrument character wasn't appearing on Tango
start up. fixed.
· fix for wrong character appearing on QucikControls
· MIDI plug-ins now respond to show/hide plug-in window.
· Known Issue: Nuendo never sends us the update about the current state of
the window.
· changed socket closing order
· MIDI plug-in on/off works properly now
· sockComm_ replaced sockRecv_ & sockSend_, closing and clean up handled
appropriately. also disabled warnings on win32.
· MODULE: Instead of an Event object we use a bool flag to indicate the
module's connection state
· MODULE: removed practical socket files from project
· MODULE: New simplified TCP structure - no use of practical socket any more
– should be more reliable.
· 2.3.4.308
· Added MIDI insert support on MIDI channels
· Made change in routing or group name do full resync - was only resyncing the
output names - leaving all of the track destionations invalid
· Working on MIDI plug-in names on MIDI channels to come up on Tango
· Trying out MIDI insert names/state/edit functions
· Removed old nue send and rcv .cpp and .h files
· Removed module connection Internal Error - can't happen anymore.
· New network connection code – much more robust
· 2.3.4.293
· Increased the version number from 2.3.4.5 to 2.3.4.6 for the modules
· Bug fix where sometimes Tango wouldn't be able to load plug-ins, as plug-in
IDs where updated incorrectly.
· Added errorclear() when our module errors clear
· Finally fixed listeners connection issue at last (Houston and Ramine)
· Improved connection errors - will now show the name of the missing module
(or system error if the listeners are not there)
· 2.3.4.278
· Fixed a bug where if a connection drops out to a Nuendo module, the
connection percentage screen will pop up and not close until you do a Resync
Engine. In addition, I made this a little more lenient, the connection to the
Nuendo module needs to be broken for over 15 seconds before the % display
will come up and for over 75 seconds before the Missing Module Error will
come up.
· Changed the re-sync project trigger such that the Track Name must change
from and empty string (i.e. no name) to a name in order to avoid false
triggering of the re-sync. This allows users to change track names in their
projects without constant re-syncing. Although adding a new track will force a
re-sync (still trying to figure out a more elegant way of handling this).
· 2.3.4.277
· Fixed incorrect startup or reconnect bypass plug-in states
· Quick Control param white bars are no longer jumpy.
· "No VST Instrument" translated to other languages.
· Quick Controls param names get updated when user reassigns the
parameter.
· Added Iggy System Error if not ALL Nuendo modules connected
· Fixed a bunch more connection issues and stripped out all the unnecessary
modules - MUST NOW HAVE ALL NUNEDO MODULES INSTALLED -
OTHERWISE WON'T CONNECT
· Quick Controls have been moved to bottom 8 active encoders.
· Instruments now support bypass as well as instrument on/off and their
behavior is consistent with the insert plug-ins. Also if an instrument doesn't
have a bypass "N/A (Not Found)" is displayed. (lot of the new Cubase
instruments don't have bypass)
· Bug Fix - under certain conditions instrument parameters would not be
displayed.
· Fixed a bug where a plug-in name on a channel from the 1st slot would come
up on the previous channel's last slot.
· Fixed 3 control EQ band colours (Andrew Tulloch)
· "Quick Controls" text now comes up correctly as soon as quick controls (1 or
more) are assigned to a channel (or disappears if all quick controls are
removed from the channel).
· 2.3.4.224
· Plug-in list update fix.
· Added send of Stop command to Nuendo at start of Update All function - so
Nuendo does not keep playing if we are trying to update.
· Added ignore of all metering messages for routing ticks check - can prevent
us from connecting if something is metering while we are trying to update all!
· Instrument and Qucik Control slots have been set to #8 & #9. Also the slots
use ascii characters (bullet point and degree symbol) to stand out from the
insert plug-in slots.
· Fixed a whole bunch of connection issues!!
· Increased number of inserts to 10 – 8 normal plug-ins and 1 instrument
control and 1 quick controls.
· Space removed before plug names (not needed and was causing plug-in list
problems)
· Removed plug-in lists for slot 8 (Qucik controls) and slot 7 (when it's a noninstrument
channel) and changed to new scheme.
· 2.3.4.222
· Ensured plug-in and instrument parameters are limited to 96 in total to prevent
Iggy crash!
· Fixed instrument scanning
· Fixed bug which slowed down operation when track names changed (was
forcing a request of all parameters! -> now it does it properly via an
updatedall() when the project changes)
· Merged Unicode/SDK 2.1 steinberg modules development branch to the trunk
- allows correct Cubase 5 operation (Ramine, Houston)
· Supports instrument scan and stores plug-in names in a file on tango.
· Fixed connection bug preventing setting of mix bus types (Ramine, Tony)
· Fixed Resync Engine function so it really does a resync! (was previously only
doing resync routing info)
· 2.3.4.202
· Nuendo now supports Instrument Control
· Nuendo now supports Quick Controls
· Nuendo now fully supports MIDI channels.
· Nuendo now support all 7 time formats (Bars=Beats, Timecode, seconds,
60fps etc). On iggy side the first 3 digits and the last 3 digits need to be
formatted appropriately. In addition, the first 3 digits should be an appropriate
truncation of the number sent to iggy from nue_engine, as nuendo may send
large numbers if the session is few hours long.
· 2.3.4.94
· Added "No Version Module" error message in case version module is not
installed in Nuendo (or in case the version numbers are different - upon
recompilation a new version may not communicate with us, so this is an
additional warning for the user when updating to new versions of software.
· Fixed the SYSTEM-RESYNC ENGINE code so that it correctly reconnects all
parameters and names, as well as the output routing
· New Edit Panel Commands list.

Notes on other updates for other engines and Tango components can be found in their release documentation.

[bobsandifer]

Good lord at the pages. I might have missed this but can you assign what EQ you would like to open when using the tango with logic?

[Nowak]

Yep, you can choose to assign either Channel EQ or Linear Phase EQ. Goto System/User Interface/Configure.

Stef

[bobsandifer]

Originally Posted by Nowak

Yep, you can choose to assign either Channel EQ or Linear Phase EQ. Goto System/User Interface/Configure.
Stef

How about a 3rd party plugin?

[Nowak]

Nup, just either of those 2 EQ's

Stef