SmartAV Tango DAW Controller

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by Nowak

I know I'm just showing off but here's my 32 fader setup. Heaven!!!

I almost missed the picture, but that is indeed a beautiful thing to behold!

[TRW]

Indeed I did get a demo with emerging.

I also tried at your booth with PT but it really wasn't running well. For me the jury is still out on the Tango with HD but with Nuendo/Cubase - this thing will be insane.

Stef, will shoot you some ?'s next week. Thanks mate!

-T

[mrickaby]

Originally Posted by TRW

Indeed I did get a demo with emerging.

I also tried at your booth with PT but it really wasn't running well. For me the jury is still out on the Tango with HD but with Nuendo/Cubase - this thing will be insane.

Stef, will shoot you some ?'s next week. Thanks mate!

-T

Yeah, it wasn't running smoothly with PT during the show unfortunately. The HUI control just wasn't good. We were expecting an update from SmartAV the day the show started which addresses and fixes the PT implementation, but unfortunately the software didn't land until the closing hours of the show on Thursday. Needless to say, I'll be testing the console again back in our demo room with the new software installed and I'll keep you posted.

[matt thomas]

Just got an email saying it now supports pro tools

I'm still wanting to check one out..

narco

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by narco

Just got an email saying it now supports pro tools

I'm still wanting to check one out..

narco

Yeah, same here. I'm gonna try and get my hands on one.

[crypticglobe]

Hey guys... I have one here at my studio in Nashville. If anybody wants to come by and check it out.... feel free. Just shoot me an e-mail to set it up. I am just now really digging into it with Cubase/Nuendo. It's very cool... and I like that the company seems very responsive to suggestion, and things can be customized so easily.

Rock on..

[TRW]

Love to know your thoughts on it with Cubase/Nuendo Steve!

If you find any bugs/issues let us know!

Thanks Tom

[taramalin]

I contacted a dealer today.


The cost of the unit is $9900.00 + gst.

[taramalin]

Thats Australian dollars.

[matt thomas]

its gone up since I checked it out a few months back then

narco

[TRW]

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

Hey guys... I have one here at my studio in Nashville. If anybody wants to come by and check it out.... feel free. Just shoot me an e-mail to set it up. I am just now really digging into it with Cubase/Nuendo. It's very cool... and I like that the company seems very responsive to suggestion, and things can be customized so easily.

Rock on..

How did you get on with it in the end Steve?

Cheers Tom

[TRW]

Any other Logic users on here:

Aside from plugins not caching in the instantiate plugin list, thus scanning everytime - are there any other major issues?

Just about to drop the cash on one of these... but not keen on picking Cubase/Nuendo as my sole platform.
-T

[Nowak]

None whatsoever, it works like a charm......

If you'd like to ask any questions re LA8/Tango, please email me directly if you wish, stefan@groovetown.com.au

Stef

[mrickaby]

Just to add to what the last poster said, I haven't experienced any trouble at all when using the Tango with Logic 8 other than the system reloading the plug-in library each time.

There are a few things I'd like to see changed, but they're just something I'd like to see rather than problems.

The only two things that I found (which are minor and don't affect anything at all) are that things like EQ curves look a lot more exaggerated on the Tango's GUI than they do in Logic 8... having said that, the Tango is so easy to use that you don't need to look at Logic at all and anyone who EQ's based on a graph is doing it wrong anyway! The second thing is that if you open a plug-in from the Tango and bring it up in Logic through the Tango, the plug-in window has to be closed within Logic - hardly a deal killer, but I found this out after using the Tango for an hour without my cinema display turned on and I had a bit of cleaning up to do! A few Command-W's and I was soon back to normal!

Other than that, it's a pleasure to work with!

Give me a shout if you're thinking about getting the Tango. I know you were at BVE and, even though I think our show discounts have run out, I might be able to work something out for you!

Mark

[Nowak]

Yep, an make sure you close all of those plug in windows as Logic keeps graphic resources ticking away even if plug in window are just "hidden" rather than closed....I found this out the hard way. My system was running like a stoned slug and I couldn't work out why, I had programmed a button on Tango to hide/show plug in windows, I hit the button then 16 or so plug in windows came to life on the screen.....I then closed them (Command/W) then all was back to normal.

I then quickly programmed a COMMAND-W macros on Tango!

Stef

[HHaynes]

Dunno if this applies to the Logic engine - but there's a setting in the Tango prefs that allows you to control *whether* the plug-in window is opened on the DAW/host when it's instantiated.

On the Tango I always have that set to NO and then control that setting in Nuendo prefs (and have a key command that I can use to switch the setting on the fly).

Cheers,
H3

[TRW]

Thanks guys, great comments so far. mrickaby sent you a PM.

I will come back with some specific questions asap.

Cheers Tom

[TRW]

OK so have one on demo here now.

Spent all last night mixing a little thing in Logic to demo it.

Have some questions but on the whole it is awesome!! Thanks to Jigsaw for sending me the demo unit, very helpful Mark!

So far here are my questions, going through the manual today:

1. Can you instantiate and assign sends via the Tango in Logic? I couldn't do it intuitively and didn't RTFM...

2. UAD plugins didn't seem to map to the right hand encoders well at all. They were doing the same thing as PT plugs when I tried it before - that is, the encoders would only wiggle the value by a small amount, the plugin wouldn't move. Moving the plugin in the DAW updated the reading on the Tango. Tapping the encoder for the parameter I wanted placed it on the active control motorized pot, which worked perfectly with UAD plugs, so it was cool, and often enough.

The motorized pot is slick as it has end stops so it feels very connected when adjusting the parameters of the UAD or Duende plugs. SSL plugs mapped perfectly to the main right hand encoders, as did stock logic plugs.

3. Had an issue with the output assign tabs in the channel display, pan section. Pressing Buss 1 on the Tango, assigned Logic to Buss 12? Seems like it is confused. If I assign the correct output in software - the Tango displays 'other busses' or 'other outputs' but I can't see which.

4. I couldn't find a way to get logic busses to be controlled as a channel on the Tango. Maybe it is me, I am not a huge logic user, but my friends Alphatrack does the same thing. How are you supposed to access verbs on auxes etc? Tango sees audio channels but I really want to load a buss compressor over my drums and tweak without having to go to the computer.

5. I'm struggling to get the solo clear LED sensor to work.

6. Also I thought double tapping the play/stop button with RTZ but I couldn't find a way to do that in logic either...

These may be things I have missed and I am about to read a manual, but I like trying it to see what comes out intuitively.

The grouping, chair, wipe, automation, metering, visual feedback, and build quality are second to none. The locate points, memory, and ergonomic spreads are amazing.

-T

[Geert van den Berg]

1. No you can't. My way around this, is to set up your Logic session as if it were an analogue console. About 8 sends and aux returns already in place in a template. I do not have all plugins setup on those auxes, I just pick them when I think I need one.

2. Which console software is on your Tango? The last version is acting a bit weird with the encoders. But I am sure this will be resolved soon. Software 2.3.4.224 was a very good version to me.

3. Did you rescan the busses on the Tango? Also there's a section in the manual which explains about the busses and outputs, I advice you to read that.

4. You have to ctrl+click on an aux channel in the Logic mixer, and select 'create/select arrange track', this will make it visible in the arrange window and on the Tango.

5. Just put your finger on it or let your finger slide over it, don't press, it's just a led, probably works with reflection.

6. Play/Stop is hardcoded, you can assign another key to return to zero or last playback position. Read the section in the manual about how to setup the edit panel, setting up the hardware keys on the console works in the same way, it's just a different menu underneath.

[TRW]

Killer dankjewel Geert!

Number 1 is a bummer but I only plan on using Logic if the forthcoming Logic 9 has decent editing and better auto. I'm pretty sure it worked in Pyramix, going to try Cubase now.

2. Console software I think is the latest - 2.3.3.212.2008.12.16

3. I did try that, there were many buttons which said rescan, so I figured it was flaky. As none of them appeared to rescan anything.

4. Excellent, thanks a lot for the heads up! Great news.

5. I tried all that with the LED sensor but it wasn't going. Will try again.

6. No problem, will do that. Temporary locators are great, may as well just use the first one if going to the head a lot.

-Tom

[Geert van den Berg]

Your console software version is the latest official release, there's a couple of Beta's after that which are better, so it will get even better if you decide to keep it!

I have no idea how it'll work with Pyramix, but I am sure it'll be quite good as Smart AV has made an OEM console for Merging too.

I am also very curious how the Tango works with Cubase, I am thinking of purchasing it as well.

I am a Pro Tools guy, so I am not too fond of Logic (not clearing buffers before a bounce for example), but the more I use it, the easier it gets, I have programmed the keyboard shortcuts to mimic Pro Tools, offcourse it's not completely the same, but editting wise I am pretty fast now, Pro Tools is faster, but I do like for example that I can easily expand the Marguee selection start and end location. And also that there's easy way to make cuts with the playhead and the locators. If you get used to that it'll change the way you edit.

And with the edit panel on the Tango things get even easier offcourse, unfortunately I cannot completely let go of the mouse/trackball, that's just how these applications work. (I'd like Pro Tools, Logic etc. to be able to select a region underneath the playhead, like as some standalone harddisk recorders, but that seems impossible without the mouse now, luckily there's a spot on the console to put the mouse, so it's still quite ergonomic).

[GPl]

Got to try one of these out...no Canada Dealers as of yet? Link on their site doesn't work.
Thanks so far for all the demos especially Mr Haynes videos. Gave me a great close up of how it would work for me.

[Nowak]

I find that some 3rd party plug ins are best used via the motorised pot, you tap the encoder you want to adjust then go to the motorised pot.....SmartAV can't be getting every plug in by every manufacturer to make sure things are good. I remember when I first got my ProControl setup the DSP section at times was an absolute mess, I guess it's one of the pitfalls of companys all trying to work together for the............greater good?

The SOLO clear LED can be a little tempermental, I guess Geert summed it up best, just wipe your finger over it and it will work, I guess I'm used to pressing a button so I go in with all guns blazing at times, not necessary.

Waves SSL plug ins are a mess on Tango, all sorts of weird parameter readings going on, Waves sent me a really definitive email about this that reads like....

"Our plug ins currently support the digidesign control surfaces and we can't guarantee that other 3rd party surfaces will be supported in the future"

Nice work Waves.

URS plug ins work well.

SPL plug ins work well.

Brainworx plug ins work well.

The most amazing thing I have found working with the console, Since using the console and the stock logic EQ and Compressor my mixes are the best I've ever achieved, it just goes to show what having proper control and feel makes you do, I rarely if ever boost EQ so the logic stock EQ is great, and you can also have Tango use/show the linear phase eq rather than the channel EQ.

Logic Compressor maps very nicely and totally rocks as a software compressor.

ProTools - The HUI module is still in beta and slowly getting more robust, Plug ins are still funky however so I think we just need to be patient when it comes to PT, it will happen however.

Stef

[TRW]

Hey Stef, nice pic man!!

So far today has been wasted updating my macbook pro to run Cubase 4 and a load of my plugins, I'm migrating to mac and it sucks! haha

I have spent a few hours trying to network the Tango to Cubase 4 on the MBP.

But have hit a brick wall. It should be easy right?

I did it with Logic the night before. I have set my DCHP, the Tango has an IP as does the MBP. The virtual keyboard works to type on the mac, proving the network is working. I can't ping the Tango IP, it never gets a response. So I'm not sure they are communicating properly.

I have added all Tango devices to the Cubase remote (which is what made it work in Logic with a similar process) to no avail.

The Tango just sits there and will not connect to the DAW.

Tomorrow I will beast this. I know the Tango works, but I'm just having a computer nightmare today. Bollox! I hate computers in general they drive me crazy...

-Tom

[Nowak]

Tom, have you read the Tango manual?

It gives good instructions about setting up the network, settings on the mac etc etc.

Stef

[TRW]

Yeah while I didn't read the operational manual, I read all of the DAW installation guides well ahead of time and many times.

I have followed every step in them. Worked fine with Logic on a macpro. Having trouble with Cubase on a MBP.

Going to try again now.

I have now since read the manula twice too!

-T

[TRW]

Still nothing... managed to set DHCP to false and assign all IPs - I even got the Tango to display channel names in Cubase, but the trasport wouldn't work, faders moved to the software position but wouldn't update the software, nor would solos etc.

Can't even get it back to that point. So far the manual steps have led me nowhere and where I have issues, the manual just says 'you have a networking problem - solve before moving on' - no good, as I haven't a clue how to fix it. Have tried everything.

Logic worked pretty easily, so this is pissing me off no end, its so sunny outside too!

-Tom

[Geert van den Berg]

I don't have Cubase so I can't help you, but if it's sunny outside, I know I wouldn't stay inside the house... contact your dealer or Smart AV tomorrow and they'll probably solve your problem.

[TRW]

Haha thanks Geert, just forced it to life with non DHCP IP addresses.

Just testing in Cubase on MBP now.

Two issues already:

Sonalksis, URS and PSP plugs map to encoders and work, but value displayed on encoder is one behind that of the actual plugin.

Ie the stepped encoders provide two values in the actual plug in, say 1.5dB and 3 dB... Tango is showing 3 and 4.5 dB as the readouts, thus not being true to the processing.

However plugin instantiation and window open and close is better than in Logic.

Other issue so far, the temp locate points (one of my fav features) don't work, press and hold to store a point and when recalling it just places the playhead at the end of the Cubase session...

More later.

-Tom

[TRW]

OK just finished a little mix in Cubase with the Tango.

I had some issues, but in short it was very very nice and I am already getting used to it, speeding up and I'm not sure I could mix in the box again without one!

The good:

• Plug-in instantiation very easy for inserts - list caches so always there - quick indeed, no more mousing through silly menus! Perhaps Tango could be altered to have categories here, EQ, Compression, Modulation etc.
• The edit panel is so very easy to configure and when I made my first button in 10seconds I was thinking how fast the platform will be once you take a day to set it up. The virtkey panel assign - letting you do usual shortcuts as single press is great and would be a simple way of programming.
• Chair mode is great, had to increase the timmometer to 6 seconds to get what I wanted out of wipe mode...
• The Tango actually made the Cubase4 channel EQ usuable to me, snobs may laugh but it allowed me to use my ears and work quicker. Speed was my motivator here, copy and pasting EQ settings between channels was a godsend on dualmono (stereo) material.
• Faders and grouping very good.
• Visual feedback from the metering also great, rarely did I need to check anything in Cubase aside from my main output buss.
• Dropping tracks into auto was very easy and great feeling.
• Got the hang of the solo clear LED now. You need to learn how to do it!
• Overall display has an unbelievable amount of feedback, it makes the DAW feel like its integrated into one big digital console...
• Ergonomically it is very good
• Built very well, feels great, looks great, big enough to be a centre piece of a small control room.

The bad:

• Still no way to assign and setup sends from the console as far as I can see (will read the manual again) - however once set up in software, using them and turning them on and off is very nice and very easy. I agree about thinking of it like a console, send 1 is short verb, send 2 long verb etc... fast in the end once patched.
• Locators wouldn't work at all - taking me to the end of the session every time. I know they will work, as they do in Logic, but for the time being the active display (and edit panel) can be used for setting markers - that worked just fine. Still these press and hold temp locators were a big deal for me.

The ugly:

• PSP, URS, Sonnox and Sonalksis plugins mapped well to the encoders in that the controls worked very well, but a large issue here. Some plugins report odd values for their controls, where the DAW may say LF @ +3dB the Tango will read +4.5dB, so working by number is no good. Use your ears. To be honest I would use a mouse to edit many plugins and grab one of the active controls when I need to automate or tune something in by feel with my eyes shut etc.
• Some plugins provide a nice value in the DAW (say in %) but the Tango sometimes displays the parameter in numbers like 0.4678 - PSP Nitro for example. Again ears not eyes.
• Paging through and getting to most parameters was very easy and with a screen right in front of the Tango, one can use the encoder whilst relying on the DAW display for values, so I think its cool. But ideally it should be better for the money.

Other stuff:

Adding FX channels in Cubase causes the Tango to pause for second or two while it updates and adds the channel to the surface. Not a biggie, as these can then be available in the routing tab etc.

It's nice that everything appears on the surface right away (without having to assign a buss to arrange page like in Logic).

What I'd like to see:

Memory function extended to allow copying of inserts... would provide Cubase with some features I really like in Logic and ProTools (alt-click+drag plugs in PT).

The bugs:

When looking at the main mix insert (I mixed into a Sonalksis comp) the Tango said my insert was a URS A EQ but it wasn't and the encoders displayed the Sonalksis compression parameters, so that seems to be a bug.

Removing a send in Cubase sometimes didn't update on the Tango so it would look like I had a few sends assigned or active, they could even be turned on and adjusted on the Tango, but Cubase didn't even have a send on slot 2, so watch that.

However a quick save and re-open of the project sorted it out. Likewise a resync of the tango engine would do it.

Although there are a few bugs and a few things not there yet, on the whole this is the best controller I have used by a long way. I have tried Duality, AWS900, Matrix, Mackie Control, Euphonix Sys5-MC, Alphatrack, D-Command, ProjectMix, Command-8, Houston, Yamaha desks... yea many cannot be compared, but the Sys5 is getting hammered here by the Tango.

Tango with Cubase 4 is on the whole very very powerful. And it should only get better.

Couple with a nice small analogue mixer/backend and it would be a great hybrid system. Sit it along side a LFC and it would be a great hands on tool for a DAW operator.

-Tom