Vocals in the Mix - Harder than you think !

[dreamsongs]

Maybe not hard if you're not a perfectionist like me but let's say challenging.

And maybe because I've been doing a few too many country demos lately but I've noticed I've been slowly but surely putting the lead vocal a lot more upfront lately.

I've been doing this in my last few Pop and Rock songs too now because some of these Publishers ingrained it in my head that they should be able to hear the lyrics without a lyric sheet. So lately I get to the point where I think the vocals should sit in the mix and nudge it up a bit more.

I'm curious as to how you guys approach this because in my world everybody wants to really hear the vocals "up there". To me though, a loud lead vox sounds obnoxious even when it's a good singer. It's gotta sit right.

I want to hear about this because to me, the vocals are the focal point of any song but it could easily ruin the track as well if not properly mixed. So what's your approach with the lead vocal ?

[BudgetMC]

This is one of those great obvious questions. So simple, yet so deep.

For me it really comes down to the song and the style. Like you say, some styles definately call for more Vocal. Can you imagine a crooner (a-la Sinatra) not being up front? But, punk vocals and the like need to be part of the wash... usually.

That said, it also depends on the song. For some tunes, the vocal is the key element and everything else is there to support it. Other times (or even at certain points in a tune), the vocal is kind of like another instrument. It's there, but it isn't terribly important compared to what else is going on. And... in other cases having the vocal mixed low can make you pay attention to it... since you've got to reach into the mix to pull it out. That's a tricky one to pull off, though. Content is also important. Does the song tell a story? Then everything needs to be intelligible. Is it a mood piece playing with tone and alliteration? Then maybe each word isn't all that important?

And... in the end, the final test... what sounds good for this particular song?

[BLUElightCory]

I generally mix the vocals with my monitors set to whisper-soft volume. This helps to determine if they're fighting the instruments too much; if you can clearly hear the vocals in the mix when the monitors are VERY quiet then you're probably good to go.

[themikesonata]

Originally Posted by BudgetMC

And... in the end, the final test... what sounds good for this particular song?

Ain't that the truth

[ed97643]

Post #2 pretty much nailed it. Odd as it may sound to say on a pro forum, I feel fortunate that I don't mix for CMT / MTV potential, etc.; with the vox 50% and the band 50% (or so it sometimes seems). I like the vox as a "featured intrument", but not totally dominating. (Just my humble $0.02!) Take care,
Ed

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by BudgetMC

This is one of those great obvious questions. So simple, yet so deep.

For me it really comes down to the song and the style. Like you say, some styles definately call for more Vocal. Can you imagine a crooner (a-la Sinatra) not being up front? But, punk vocals and the like need to be part of the wash... usually.

That said, it also depends on the song. For some tunes, the vocal is the key element and everything else is there to support it. Other times (or even at certain points in a tune), the vocal is kind of like another instrument. It's there, but it isn't terribly important compared to what else is going on. And... in other cases having the vocal mixed low can make you pay attention to it... since you've got to reach into the mix to pull it out. That's a tricky one to pull off, though. Content is also important. Does the song tell a story? Then everything needs to be intelligible. Is it a mood piece playing with tone and alliteration? Then maybe each word isn't all that important?

And... in the end, the final test... what sounds good for this particular song?

I agree with you but...

when you get down right to it and in practice you have to make some choices because even 1db can make a difference.

I would say 50% of my songs are AC and tell a story. The rest are pop and rock. And (as you put it) I like to reach into the mix and pull the lyric out. That's usually how I like to mix but since we're talking in relative terms, how much upfront is upfront and how much in the mix do you have to reach ?

Also, I've been experimenting with panning a little more extreme than normal as opposed to reaching for the fader...

[mikey]

i was recently listening to John Lennons Milk and Honey or Double Fantasy.Check out his voice how way up front it is

[Renegade Prod]

obvious as it is, (im sure you would know)
but of course it depends on what you're pursuing, im not going to mix and level a lyrically (radio viable) country record the same as an underground dual guitar metal record.

Because of the way radio stations decide to play our songs, i think that if you are mixing for the radio, then yes nudge em up just a bit, but if you are mixing for an artist and how they want, having the vox up is "not usually" what they want.

[Mr. Liszt]

It seems like, when it comes to country and pop at least, the better the arrangement, the better the composition, the better and more stimulating the lyrics and melody and the better the performance the more room and license one has to have the vocals up front in the mix. But there is a line of course.

I remember the first time I really listened to "Friends In Low Places" coming from an audio point of view. Totally shocked that the vocal is so incredibly loud in the intro. But it sounds like a million dollars. I think it was a really bold choice to have the vocals so high in the intro but honestly the ME could have even went further.

Not that the thread is addressing this or that the OP is experiencing this problem in any way but a hard truth might even be that a vocal sounding not 'right' being too loud in the mix might be a symptom of a weak composition or performance in some genres. It's really, really, really hard to ruin a million dollar phrase. Almost nothing can stop it.

So there may be some truth in the above but it's quite idealistic. In the real world, and more to the point of this thread, keeping in mind publishing reps listening to recordings, one could try and make the vocal sit nicely in the mix and bring up/automate any words, syllables, consonants etc. whose clarity could be obscured by that 'best' level one has found.

[dreamsongs]

I think in my case it has more to do with having one Master recording to reflect how I want my song to sound as opposed to having one mix each to please the people that I work with.

If I listen to the Beatles and their mixes (once again the Beatles as an example) that's how I'd prefer my vocals to sit.

I only have doubts in some of my heavy mixes, not the ones with sparse arrangements. When I have BV's, 2-3 guitars, strings, various percussion, horns etc. aside from my rythm track it gets a bit tricky...

[peeder]

I generally clear so much room for the vocal you'd still be able to understand the words on an ipod 6db down from where I mix it.

I put it at the point where it draws you in enough and makes the band sound rocking but doesn't make the vocalist sound distant.

[dreamsongs]

I'm trying to commit to mixing ITB but everything sounds so forward sometimes that it's more difficult to have a vocal sit where it should.

I'm on a personal quest to not go back OTB and analog mixing and getting close to that sound I like without going back. The hard part is the "forwardness" of ITB makes it a bit harder to push back certain elements and have a two-dimensinal soundstage.

This is usually where having a vocal sit right becomes challenging...