Kevin Shirley : FLAME ON !

[krid]

From Kevin Shirley website :
http://www.cavemanproductions.com/cavediary.htm

"Well, this a wacky ole world. Beware - was a tequila night last night, and I'm in a fine mood! FLAME ON! I'm definitely commiting professional suicide on a huge scale these days. I just get so pissed at these record companies and band managers that treat us engineers and producers like shit, and we are supposed to take it, because there is apparently a dearth of work out there and we should be scraping and groveling. Because the labels spend so much on A&R "expense" accounts, and bitch so publicly about downloading, budgets are cut so much that the quality of product up for offer is often short of nothing but peurile. The music is not the problem, so why spend less on the music than they did thirty years ago. I was listening to old Sabbath the other day, and the care that has been taken to make a quality record then, far exceeds what we have now, by and large! Obviously I'm not stupid enough to name these people (well I am, actually), but certainly by my work schedule, it's not hard to guess who I'm talking about. Everything needs to be done for near-free now, and then it takes forever to get paid! Put it this way, since I got back from London in early June, I've not seen a penny, but plenty of ****ing attitude from CEO's, A&R people and managers who have very tight deadlines and want us to fix these cheaply and badly recorded records. One label asked me to mix an entire album for $5k - studio, me,materials included. At best, it could take a week, and studio rates are $2k/day - not to mention all the equipment I own and have loans on! What do they expect me to tell the phone/mortgage/etc companies? Sorry, surround sound doesn't pay thirty days? "

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by krid
From Kevin Shirley website :
http://www.cavemanproductions.com/cavediary.htm

One label asked me to mix an entire album for $5k - studio, me,materials included. At best, it could take a week, and studio rates are $2k/day - not to mention all the equipment I own and have loans on! What do they expect me to tell the phone/mortgage/etc companies? Sorry, surround sound doesn't pay thirty days? "

Blame it on the guys mixing on the fukking DAW's with their freaking home studios. grudge

(Just kidding DAW dudes before you guys destroy me).

The rates are that high in the UK huh?

Over here in NYC they are much lower.

You can get a good room for what was $1k-$2k for pretty much half if you negotiate right(and pay upfront of course).

[TonyBelmont]

Kevin is a great guy and that sounds like venting a little. I don't know if he wanted that broadcasted to everyone, so I would send him an email asking if it is OK to post that here. Either way, it's sad to say that this is the state of the industry nowadays.

[Kyle Ashley]

I can only speak from my own experience with A&R folk at the majors, and he's not kidding or exaggerating. This business is really getting screwed to the core, and I'm starting to think heavily about starting a charter fishing service in New Zealand.....

and I'm one of those stinkin' DAW guys!

[sismundi]

Originally posted by TonyBelmont
Kevin is a great guy and that sounds like venting a little. I don't know if he wanted that broadcasted to everyone, so I would send him an email asking if it is OK to post that here. Either way, it's sad to say that this is the state of the industry nowadays.

It's already on PSW and Velvetrope...

FWIW, if you read Kevin's diary the dude sure doesn't seem to lack for work, irrespective of the rant. Also, look at his house! I think he's done pretty good by the industry.

It's always been fashionable to hate mooks. After all they're mooks!

[SUPADUPA]

Dear Kyle Ashley .... please dont come here ....

thats the last thing we need ..... thanks .....supa

[ajcamlet]

Slip:

Theoretically then, do you feel that there is no middle ground in the recording industry at all? Its either a sound hotel or not?

curious...
ajc

[7rojo7]

Some studio owners I've known have survived by means of illicit activities or selling socks at the flea market on Wednesdays and Sundays. Some of them have even bought planes like that. The only thing I've seen wreck a studio is Divorce and the give me half of the value of all your Neve, Pultec, UA, Studer, Bryston, C-24, U-48, M-249 etc... Your kids have to have food, shelter, clothing and an education.
For money acts the Sound Hotel will always be needed, it's a shootout over who'll survive, no doubt with corprate contacts tipping the decision, for others it's a mad scramble for the greased pig or a long climb up that greased pole. It's best to keep on working and save whatever dignity there is that remains.
For those that have made loans, I believe that even if you pay a little less at a time, they'll still accept your money rather than forclose.
As for the survival aspect, anyone that can pay one rent instead of two or more and not have all the expenses of a "real" business has an edge over another that does. Less accountant time. However, here (Italy), the government doesn't let you hire people if you don't have your act together, and the minimum buy-in for act togetherness is about 6k a year.

My question is: Where do the Artists who use DAW studios shop their work or how do they book these studios? Most of the radioplay music I hear is all done in some sort of pro, even music hotel type of environment.
This phenomenon is just a ploy used by the labels to drive down the costs. If I had Big label business I'd raise my prices every time they asked me for a cut. The smaller labels have always wanted to underpay and in some way they deserve a break. Tell me where I'm going off

[Kyle Ashley]

Dear SupaDupa...my fishing service comment was meant to be a joke....but I mantain that Kevin's comments are right on target in my experience of the last couple of years.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by slipperman
This, of course, is DESTROYING the up-market NYC rooms and will eventually be the death of the 'sound hotel' biz in NYC.

At least, as we have come to know it.

In addition to this phenomenon>

In a mad, gear buying, loft renting scramble... many NYC based audio professionals have rather belatedly decided to attempt to start "Cult of Personality Shops" all over the metro area in the past 2 years or so.

Certainly, IMHO, the vast majority will fail.

And their failures will be so catastrophic, that most will simply 'cease to be' as creative entities in the craft. These guys are second mortgaging homes, selling planes(not kidding), taking monstrous personal loans.... Etc. Etc.

Here is what they are going to find out:

What it takes to assume both the mantle of studio ownership AND the creative burdens of professional AE/RP work is a MUCH, MUCH greater burden than many folks might suspect.

ESPECIALLY, if the expectation is that FULL SERVICE(even remotely mimicking the efforts afforded by/expectations of, the 'A line' sound hotels) will be provided at an 'affordable' price point.

Wait till yer first $2500 monthly utility bill rolls in.

Wait till ya find out the clients can EASILY drink $500/month in coffee and spring water(Uhmmm... That's $6,000 a year... so it's basically "Their coffee" or "Your Vacation"... Choose wisely).

Wait till ya find out how much it's going to cost to get that annoying 'shortwave radio stylee' chatter out of the headphone feeds.

Wait till ya gotta deal with the 'Fire inspection' guys...

The "You guys are making too much noise" guys...

The "I twisted my ankle in the parking lot and it's your fault' guys.....

Wait till the first QUARTERLY insurance deposit is due.

Just letting ya know....

That's all.

Tip of the iceberg baby.

Tip of the iceberg.

As someone heading into almost 2 decades of doing EXACTLY that, in this area.... I feel modestly qualified/compelled to express my opinions on the subject.

In regards to Kevin's original rant.

These type of conditions(some illustrated in Kevin's missive) are the reason so many individuals are attempting to find 'streamlined' approaches to record making. Including ITB mixing, 'Project studio' ownership, desktop mastering.... and so forth.

It's all about the almighty dollar, and "living to see another day". Much more than a question of sonics or the betterment of record production...

Even for the folks who have real 'marquee' pull.

For.... As we all know...

That 'marquee value' and 50 cents will get you a hot cocoa in our "What have you done for me in the last 15 minutes" business.

Just a thought.

Best regards to all.

SM.



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Well Slip,

I hate to say it but some of the soundmotels have it coming to them after years of gouging the labels.

The days of the $50 CD/DAT,$20 cassetes and $1k phone bills are over.

I know, their rationale was don't charge them tax, but make it up on the amenities.

Problem was that alot of them were including tax as part of the rate.

I think in order to survive into the next music wave the sound motels here in the city will have to make (3) sweeping changes-

1)Stop hiring people that don't really belong at a studio and start promoting from with in.

I think the talent evaluations of personnel has gone down the tubes.

When i first started in the mid 80's you had to bust your balls to prove yourself. And not just anyone was hired. Also your tenure at a studio was really short if you didn't show talent or improvement. I think there are personally too many guys who either went to school or worked at some home studios and don't have an idea of what working at a studio is really about.

I think its time to up the ante.

3 months and if you don't show something as Trump would say"Your fired".

With the guys that are kept, start developing and promoting within.

Lets face it, all of the soundmotels are designed by most of the same guys, with the same gear in the rooms.

All provide amenities and kickbacks to the clients.

The only way now to set yourself apart is with the personnel.

Develop and support the best engineers from within.

I can't think of one professional engineer(except the cream of the crop) who would not like a steady stream of work. Also how about providing insurance? When you are married(which i am not mind you) this is a big deal.

I think where things went wrong was back in the late 80's ealy 90's one particular sound motel(which is doing horrible) thought by throwing money at all the best engineers in town and creating this large freelance/everyman for himself enviroment would benefit them.

Of course it did and they became the #1 place in town.

Now they are reaping what they sowed.


There is no LOYALTY.

And when they are doing bad everyone is going to the place down the block.

Because the people there are independent from their parent record label and now they run the place like it was their last day.


2) Hire compentent management and booking agents.

The booking managers here in town think they are as big as the artists sometimes.

They don't return your phone calls unless you are a major project.

They try to stiff arm you into taking the worst rates at the worst times.

They bump you if a major all of a sudden needs your spot.


One particular soundmotel won't even let you go in to speak to a receptionist. They have the gaull to have a security guard tell you so.

This to me its a joke especially if the entrance receptionist is just 3 ft away from you behind a booth.


The music business,artists and major studios have created such a chasm with the public that if they don't try soon to get it mended, it will be too late.


3) Try now to buy your real estate.

If you are on a lease than you are on the clock.

Your place will not stand.

Its impossible here in the city where real estate is at a premium.

I know for some it will be costly(in the millions), but i feel its the best investment you can make especially if you plan on keeping it and maybe passing it to your kids.

Even though things seem bleak right now, 2 new places i can think of are doing rather well.

One is in your neck of the woods i think Slip(Bennet Studios which is run by Tony B.'s son).

The other is a new place in Harlem(Ornette Coleman's place).

[heinz]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
The music business,artists and major studios have created such a chasm with the public that if they don't try soon to get it mended, it will be too late.

Man this is a huge point; accessability. Major turn off when you are trying to get basic info from a studio, and they go all Studio 54 on you.

[ajcamlet]

Originally posted by slipperman

You must create a SEPARATE rung on the ladder in your organization to accommodate this position. A rung that eventually looks bitter, thankless and utterly unappealing to most young guys, especially when they see their peers 'getting all the glory'.
SM.

OK- i think i understand what your saying here. In small shops (As you state: cult of Personality Shops - which corrent me if i'm wrong means - small studio, semi-pro - maybe owner/operator and an "assistant" or no assistant?)

THe missing rung in these shops is that first "grunt rung" -- the shit work. If thats what your saying , i understand that- what i dont get is how that affects "you" as a large commercial joint, or and/or assures the failure of the smaller shops?

so another question: Can you have a "successful" small faclity?

[Rezman]

Originally posted by Kyle Ashley
I can only speak from my own experience with A&R folk at the majors, and he's not kidding or exaggerating. This business is really getting screwed to the core, and I'm starting to think heavily about starting a charter fishing service in New Zealand.....

and I'm one of those stinkin' DAW guys!

Come on down Kyle, it's just coming into summer here and it's getting warm....

[Jan Folkson]

A coupla thoughts Thrill. First off, the studio's rationale (at least the one that I'm associated with) for charging so much for media is that it's the only place to make any kind of profit. While, I agree that some of the prices are absurd, look at it like this. Most studios are at rates lower than they were 20 years ago while the cost of doing business has skyrocketed.

Secondly, nearly ALL of the studios that I work at DO promote exclusively from within. But the truth is that there aren't any staff engineers anymore. Assistant Engineer is the platau and some of the majors have the same assistants for many years. None of the majors here in NYC have anything other than GAs and Asst Engineers on staff with specialty shops such as Big Blue Meenie being the exception rather than the rule.

Basically, you start as a runner and work you way up though the food chain.

And Third, I'm not sure that I know many people that can afford space in Manhatten these days, but we CAN dream

[ttauri]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
The music business,artists and major studios have created such a chasm with the public that if they don't try soon to get it mended, it will be too late.

To quote Marv Albert: YESSS!
That's an issue I see in a lot of sectors of the music industry. I was just talking with a friend about the hard times for DJ vinyl spots here, and how with all the exterior troubles, the thing that makes it hard for me to feel *that* sorry for them, is that the retail experience has always kinda sucked (inattentive staff, obnoxious staff, long waits to hear joints...). The chasm...

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Jules]

As a generalization

I see it as people having 'bought themselves a job'

I feel I am one of them.

Folks with a PC/Mac in the corner of the living room can also fall into this catagory..

But then I haven't read the rest of the thread - SO WHAT DO I KNOW?

[ajcamlet]

Slip:

Thanks man - I got your point now--Makes sense and it is one of worthy discourse....

cheers:

ajc

PS- the poverty level in NNJ (where i am) or as some call it "the Subsistance line" is quite high-- i.e LOTS of working poor....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Jan Folkson
A coupla thoughts Thrill. First off, the studio's rationale (at least the one that I'm associated with) for charging so much for media is that it's the only place to make any kind of profit. While, I agree that some of the prices are absurd, look at it like this. Most studios are at rates lower than they were 20 years ago while the cost of doing business has skyrocketed.

Secondly, nearly ALL of the studios that I work at DO promote exclusively from within. But the truth is that there aren't any staff engineers anymore. Assistant Engineer is the platau and some of the majors have the same assistants for many years. None of the majors here in NYC have anything other than GAs and Asst Engineers on staff with specialty shops such as Big Blue Meenie being the exception rather than the rule.

Basically, you start as a runner and work you way up though the food chain.

And Third, I'm not sure that I know many people that can afford space in Manhatten these days, but we CAN dream

Jan i hear you.

On the over charging the media for profit thing, that over the years has rubbed everyone from the producers,labels and artists the wrong way.

Especially now in which you can buy a CD for .50 cents.

If that's the only place to make a profit, there is something wrong.grudge

Yeah i meant a true staff engineer.

Someone that represents the sound of the place.

How about a good tech person on staff 24 hours aday?

I haven't seen one of those here in a Sound Motel in years.

If you can't afford to buy, than in my opinion its a bad investment, unless you are in it for the short term.

I am finshing up the building on my personal mixing place now and the lease i moved into is already 3 years old.

Its a 5 year lease.

If i'm lucky, i'll get 2 good years out of it and maybe i'll get to renew it for another 5.

If not i'll do the same thing all over again.

Look for a spot that's already built or in the process.

And just move in with all of my stuff and take it over for a while.