Cymbal Bleed

[Ahellam]

How do the pros get such a clean separated drum sound and use so much compression (im talking mostly hard rock here) and not have nasty cymbal bleed? Gating? Triggering? Im just curious if its just THAT simple or if theres anything special people are doing?

[JMS]

D-Drum triggers can be used for all sorts of wonderful things. Use the pulse to trigger your gate, trigger a new sample, or trigger a sample that you made of the kit you used on the session. You can cut down some of the bleed by using foam around the mics which auralux finally figured out that if they make pre-fab cutouts, like we've already been using, they can sell more foam. Individual drummers also can help you out by actually playing lighter on cymbals then snares etc. They can also move stuff around if you ask them politely if your getting too much bleed.

If I'm going to sample I'd rather just reinforce what they already bring to the table so I'll make kick, snare, tom sample as we go that include all the mics so as not to get fakey sounds. Listen through and if there are any unique quality hits like side sticks, and second snares, brushes get those too. Even the worse sounding kit, from the worse band can sound still like the band in all their crappy glory only better if the drums sound really "clean". You'll be their hero. Don't try putting better sounds because in the end it won't sound like the band and it's really their record at the end of the day.

[Ahellam]

Ive used triggering and ive used that foam around the mic thing before, (we call it the "mic vagina") hahah.

Im just wondering if thats what is going on in popular reocrdings say like really compressed modern rock recordings, with the snare really in yoru face.

I know some people do the "record the cymbals separate" thing such as blink 182 and queens of the stone age but that takes a REALLY talented drummer.

[JMS]

True, true. I've done it a couple times and it is incredible hard unless your drummer is up for the task.

Yes Sound replacer is the "famous" program but I tend to be pretty old school as sampling new sounds can be nowadays. But I'll either go in by hand and work with a drum sample. I usually get somwhere between 10-15 hard hits, 10-15 medium etc. and move from there. My partner hates it because he says he can't tell a difference but I can especially when I'm just mixing it in with an existing hit. I'll usually compress the crap out of the sample and leave the other kit un-eq'd and un-comped for some air and space and let the samples deliver the clean punch. I think reinforces the realism. Also if I'm working in a small room I'll feed the samples through a PA and mic that and mix it for clean natural verb.

I hope I'm helping you out a bit.

[jeronimo]

I tried a whole bunch of different mic positions for the snare mic but none of those gave me the separation I wanted.
I'll try the foam trick, but someone told me it can cause some comb filtering... is it true?
I think the size and "liveness" of the room has a major influence on the separation of the drums... can you guys that track on large rooms confirm this?

[natpub]

The times i watched high end mixers mix drums, they would automate the tails of some of the drum tracks by hand, not gate.

They would pick the exact places they wished to remove the bleed and room sound. This was especially done on toms. I have seen 3 or 4 people do this, though it takes a lot of time.

It does sound really good in the end.

[heinz]

Originally posted by jeronimo
I tried a whole bunch of different mic positions for the snare mic but none of those gave me the separation I wanted...

I think the size and "liveness" of the room has a major influence on the separation of the drums...

IMO the microphone types & patterns, the proximity of cymbals to drum mics, and the drummers method of playing cymbals are bigger factors.

What mic are you using on the snare?

[edyer]

Good overhead placement, Good playing.
Mic all toms and snare and kik . Then edit the daylights out of the toms, kik and snare.
Cut out everything in between fills/hits etc. Leave the overheads alone.
Build the picture with the overheads.Use the snare/toms to add volume and punch. Compress to taste. Make two stereo busses with compressed and uncompressed.( parallel ) Automate stir, lather, rinse, repeat. Add replacements where needed. ( sad toms or kik ) It never sounds right !!!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by edyer
Add replacements where needed. ( sad toms or kik ) It never sounds right !!!

Nope. Because real drums aren't edited and sound replaced!!!

Start by using smaller & lighter cymbals and telling the drummer to treat them like glass and pound the hell out of the drums. The farther the cymbals are from the drums the better both will sound too.

[djui5]

It's all in the mic'ing...

There's also a lot of laying to get those "in your face" drum sounds....compression too...

[jeronimo]

I'm using a SM-57 on the snare... I tried a Beta 87 once, and I got better results, the Beta 87 is hypercardiod right? Maybe this helped.
I know editing and soundreplacing will help my sound a lot, but that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I know how to get it "right" this way... But I want to have it right w/o using those tricks...

[drundall]

Originally posted by edyer
Then edit the daylights out of the toms, kik and snare.
Cut out everything in between fills/hits etc.

Wow, that seems pretty drastic. Never done that

[beechstudio]

I ask my clients (drummers) to adjust the crash cymbals as high as they can comfortably play them. I know some people will disagree with this philosphy. But, it really helps cut the bleed on the close miked drums. I've never had much success using the cardboard shield method. (Seemed to get in the drummers way too much!) (I would ilke to try those Auralex isolators!) It's really difficult to tell a metal drummer not to 'bash' his cymbals too hard. They tend to take that as an insult! Though in the over powering cymbal issue; if the raising of the cymbals doesn't work, going to thinner or smaller diameter one's usually does the trick!

[edyer]

Originally posted by drundall
Wow, that seems pretty drastic. Never done that

Well I have a number of times and I gotta say that I will do what ever needs to be done to get the sound That's wanted.
That's the beauty of a daw. This is no big secret or mystery. I'm amazed at the reaction to it. Some times the drums sound off so why not fix them? It's not the default mode to tweak that much and on a small kit it's hardly needed. But who hasn't heard of using gated tones or replacing sounds. I heard a good story about a guy blowing up a lightbulb, recording it, and then adding it to the to kik drum. Or how about adding 80hz tones to drums triggerd through a gate? I thought this stuff was the norm.

[jeronimo]

I am a "heavy" drummer myself, and I tend to beat the shit out of the drums. When I recorded myself, I used a Beta 87 and my hi hat is pretty high compared to other drummers I record. So maybe that's why I got less bleed than other recordings I do.