Modern rock mixing - no transients

WildCowboys · 14th May 2008, 01:19 PM

Hi guys,
just benn listening to "Over you" by Daughtry. Let´s not discuss the music here, but the sound.

What struck me most ist that the elements in the mix have NO bright transients left except for the attack of the bassdrum. Even the snare has no bright attack left. It´s a certain style of mixing taken to the extreme. Very bold and in your face, though quite unnatural. Some will hate the sound, some will love it. The question is, how did the mixer achieve this, and, how much is the mastering (if at all) responsible for the absence of transients.

The mastering is over the top too, at least 3dB hotter than what I would ever consider "still ok". But I doubt the mastering crunch is the reason, because if there were transients left in the mix, crunching the 2buss would bring them out even more/brighter. I guess it was done in the mix either by using compressors on everything with extremely short attack times. Or the guy has been using transient designers or such plugins on everything to get rid of ´em.

I would LOVE to hear the song unmastered.

Is there anyone here who knows somebody involved in the making/mixing/mastering of this record?

Rock on!
Pat

ps - I also think it is necessary to remove transients this much in the mix in order to do the mastering this hot...

beau · 14th May 2008, 04:09 PM

sounds like a typical chris lordalge mix to me... just not as much crack in the snare... listen to shooter jennings "the wolf" same type of mix.

peace

beau

WildCowboys · 14th May 2008, 08:34 PM

who mixed the record? can´t find anything online...

delcosmos · 14th May 2008, 09:15 PM

Chris Lord-Alge is the mixer and Ted Jensen is the mastering Engineer.

I am one of those who love the technics of the Lord-Alge brothers.

It's an art, a sound that it is really hard to achieve.

Best regards.

Delcosmos.

Kadden Heart · 14th May 2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beau

sounds like a typical chris lordalge mix to me... just not as much crack in the snare... listen to shooter jennings "the wolf" same type of mix.

peace

beau

agreed, definitely sounds like CLA to me.

and of course ted jensen has his signature stamp also.

greatly mixed record BTW,...
i wish CLA or TLA hung out here,...i'd barrag them with questions all day.

audiomichael · 14th May 2008, 09:59 PM

I've heard from a couple different 3rd party sources that there's a lot of board saturation happening on CLA TLA mixes. Anyone care to chime in on that? I've tried to mix in that style but have never come close to the loudness yet clarity and punch that they achieve.

Kadden Heart · 15th May 2008, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomichael

I've heard from a couple different 3rd party sources that there's a lot of board saturation happening on CLA TLA mixes. Anyone care to chime in on that? I've tried to mix in that style but have never come close to the loudness yet clarity and punch that they achieve.

"3rd party",..has anyone ever met CLA or TLA?
i've only read ike 3 interviews featuring either of them,..
i've never heard "i sat in on a session"
or "he mixed my sh**"

are these guys even real or is it just clearmountains alter sonic ego?

they're never featured in mix, eq, etc... i would frekain' kill, for thte oportunity to like,.be around while a band tracks, and then sit in on the mix with either of them.

if anyones ever even met them please share,... i think they're fictional characters.

AMIEL · 15th May 2008, 12:57 AM

Yes Mixed by Chris Lord Alge and mastered by Ted Jensen.....I really like the sound of the Daughtry CD...the sound is great!

EvilE · 15th May 2008, 02:30 AM

just read an archived CLG interview on mix magazine's website. pretty sweet. he mixes everything in 16 bit. who knew?

e

MarkRB · 15th May 2008, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilE

just read an archived CLG interview on mix magazine's website. pretty sweet. he mixes everything in 16 bit. who knew?

e

Yeah, apparently mixed down to a 48 track 3348 by his assistants. That's gotta be getting harder and harder to do these days with 100+ track counts.
That costs $1,000 before he even walks into the studio.

He is the king of smashing the shit out of a song "well".

WildCowboys · 15th May 2008, 06:39 AM

ok so now we know it´s an Alge piece of work. But anyone knows how they proceed to get rid of any transient? I know they like running stuff through multiple compressors. but it would br great to know if they have a certain chain of settings, like slow attacks to medium attacks into a short attack compressor for example...

the sound is interesting, it can sound great (what I thought listening to it in my car), but then again in the studio I thought well it sounds like one pile of lifeless artificial brick that is interrupted only by the kick drum which obviously was mixed in this way so people think "wow, it has punch". but in reality nothing in this mix except the kick (which sounds like it is not part of the mix but on top of it) has any punch. power, yes, but punch, no...

whaddayathink?

Rock on!
Pat

ps . and I think it is funny cause they use loads of expensive outboard equipment....it does not sound expensive...it sounds extreme, but not expensive.....

audiovisceral · 15th May 2008, 07:13 AM

An Evening With Chris Lord-Alge

Chris Lord-Alge

Mr.HOLMES · 15th May 2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

"3rd party",..has anyone ever met CLA or TLA?
i've only read ike 3 interviews featuring either of them,..
i've never heard "i sat in on a session"
or "he mixed my sh**"

are these guys even real or is it just clearmountains alter sonic ego?

they're never featured in mix, eq, etc... i would frekain' kill, for thte oportunity to like,.be around while a band tracks, and then sit in on the mix with either of them.

if anyones ever even met them please share,... i think they're fictional characters.

I guess he is to busy as he could write endless posts in GEARSLUTZ

jfw3 · 16th May 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

I would LOVE to hear the song unmastered.

Not going to sound any different, at least as the level/comp/limiting is concerned.

JFW

Kadden Heart · 16th May 2008, 01:26 AM

i just read 3 interviews with CLA

he has a very,..different way of working kinda,..
but read interviews
just google his name and read them all,...

it offers some really good insight into hiw process and views and such

definitely worth the read, i know i'm gonna try using my liquid mix emulations of the gear he mentioned in the way he mentioned and see what i can come up with.

one thing to keep in mind is CLA doesn't mix ITB, he mixes on the 4000SSL from the 3348, with TONS of eexpensive, vintage outboard,..and on top of that he mentions using plugins to "start" getting the sound he needs in teh desk,...

so no matter how hard we may try,..i have a feeling there's just no substitute for the gear he uses.

audiovisceral · 16th May 2008, 03:33 AM

tla but same thing, right? pre time correction sample squash i tthink

allencollins · 16th May 2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildCowboys

Hi guys,
just benn listening to "Over you" by Daughtry.

I love Daughtry but then again I like the Bay City Rollers, Debbie Gibson
and the New kids on the Block!

I think I still have my Shaun Cassidy 45 of Da-do-runrun.....
What a great mix that was too. I may pop that on tonight.

Any Leif Garrett Fans? Howabout the Osmonds?

Kadden Heart · 16th May 2008, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

tla but same thing, right? pre time correction sample squash i tthink

sounds pretty good to me.
all the more random "fx" an stuff sounded cooler than the real thing, a little panning issues and guitar EQ issues but it still sounds cool.

did TLA do this demo?
(if so i would have expected ore)

audiovisceral · 16th May 2008, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

sounds pretty good to me.
all the more random "fx" an stuff sounded cooler than the real thing, a little panning issues and guitar EQ issues but it still sounds cool.

did TLA do this demo?
(if so i would have expected ore)

cla says he does quick pre-mixes and tla prob does same. i think this is that or maybe by the matrix who wrote/recorded. dunno. tla did the final mix, fwiw, so u can at least see roughly where it started i think..

TheRealRoach · 16th May 2008, 06:27 AM

Hey people,

This is an interview from last year from Sound on Sound.... Lots of pics of his gear as well. From May 2007.

My Chemical Romance: Black Parade

Some interesting quotes:
"The vast array of outboard gear in Lord-Alge's Resonate room is explained by his assertion that hardware effects still sound significantly better than plug-ins, plus the fact that he has most of his boxes permanently set to one setting and hard-wired to specific channels of his SSL. If he finds himself regularly using an additional setting, he tends to buy another copy of the same box for that purpose." - must be nice... the old-skool version of "store preset..."

Re: Black Parade
"The drums were fairly straightforward: the comp had two snares, stereo toms, hi-hat, stereo overheads and stereo room. I replaced their kick with a clean and punchier kick sample and also added two snare samples — all samples were taken from the track."

"When asked what his main ingredient is in achieving this apparent power and loudness, his answer might surprise some. "[...] most of all," he reveals with a smile, "I listen really quietly. When you've been doing this job for a while, you tend to listen at such a low volume that in order for it to hit you in the face, you have to really push it. I listen on [Yamaha] NS10s, the original ones with the covers, plus an old Infinity 12-inch subwoofer that cost me $300, so I can hear the ultra-low end. Listening at low volumes prevents fatigue and you can hear better what's going on. When you turn things up, after a while all your moves become a smear. So when you're doing really critical moves, do them at a low level."

"Panning is something I'm not subtle with. It's either left, right, or centre. Absolutely. Unless you're panning an orchestra and you're trying to make it sound like real life, as we did on 'Black Parade'. But I try to make my panning extreme, so it jumps out at the sides."

"What will anger me is when someone tries to make my final mix 9dB louder by L1-ing it to the wall, and flattens out my impact, just to make the CD louder. I will already have done all the compression and limiting that I think necessary."

Kadden Heart · 16th May 2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

Hey people,

This is an interview from last year from Sound on Sound.... Lots of pics of his gear as well. From May 2007.

My Chemical Romance: Black Parade

Some interesting quotes:
"The vast array of outboard gear in Lord-Alge's Resonate room is explained by his assertion that hardware effects still sound significantly better than plug-ins, plus the fact that he has most of his boxes permanently set to one setting and hard-wired to specific channels of his SSL. If he finds himself regularly using an additional setting, he tends to buy another copy of the same box for that purpose." - must be nice... the old-skool version of "store preset..."

Re: Black Parade
"The drums were fairly straightforward: the comp had two snares, stereo toms, hi-hat, stereo overheads and stereo room. I replaced their kick with a clean and punchier kick sample and also added two snare samples — all samples were taken from the track."

"When asked what his main ingredient is in achieving this apparent power and loudness, his answer might surprise some. "[...] most of all," he reveals with a smile, "I listen really quietly. When you've been doing this job for a while, you tend to listen at such a low volume that in order for it to hit you in the face, you have to really push it. I listen on [Yamaha] NS10s, the original ones with the covers, plus an old Infinity 12-inch subwoofer that cost me $300, so I can hear the ultra-low end. Listening at low volumes prevents fatigue and you can hear better what's going on. When you turn things up, after a while all your moves become a smear. So when you're doing really critical moves, do them at a low level."

"Panning is something I'm not subtle with. It's either left, right, or centre. Absolutely. Unless you're panning an orchestra and you're trying to make it sound like real life, as we did on 'Black Parade'. But I try to make my panning extreme, so it jumps out at the sides."

"What will anger me is when someone tries to make my final mix 9dB louder by L1-ing it to the wall, and flattens out my impact, just to make the CD louder. I will already have done all the compression and limiting that I think necessary."

good read.
that dude leave shis outboard settings the same and jsut buys more of the same piece,...god to have that kind of money huh? lol

1.) he said samples were taken from the track....i assume he means somewhere in the song the kick and snare were isolated enough to cut and sample?

2.) extreme panning, i used to be this way, but recently i've started keeping my OH's at like 65L&R, and bringing things in,..in order to make other elements sound outwards more,.. i wonder if actually does keep certaing things in, or if he really does throw all guitars completely L&R and the OH's as such.

outofphase · 16th May 2008, 07:48 AM

Again and again and again and again.

Boys use the search button, these SOS interview is from May 07 and it was beaten to dead here on GS by all the CLA lovers.

How many times do we have to read that CLA buy another 1176 if he needs to move a setting?

outofphase · 16th May 2008, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

sounds pretty good to me.
all the more random "fx" an stuff sounded cooler than the real thing, a little panning issues and guitar EQ issues but it still sounds cool.

did TLA do this demo?
(if so i would have expected more)

No, this is the "Matrix" version of the same song, the record label didn't like it and hired TLA to bring on the magic.

Don't you think it's silly to get a $10k mixer to make a demo or a rough mix?

oop.

Pastor Obviedo · 16th May 2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofphase

Again and again and again and again.

Boys use the search button, these SOS interview is from May 07 and it was beaten to dead here on GS by all the CLA lovers.

How many times do we have to read that CLA buy another 1176 if he needs to move a setting?

Ditto.

TheRealRoach · 16th May 2008, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofphase

Again and again and again and again.

Boys use the search button, these SOS interview is from May 07 and it was beaten to dead here on GS by all the CLA lovers.

How many times do we have to read that CLA buy another 1176 if he needs to move a setting?

So apparently we're not allowed to talk about things that have been mentioned in the past?

...Ooops, hope someone hasn't said that before... I'll do a search

Kadden Heart · 16th May 2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outofphase

No, this is the "Matrix" version of the same song, the record label didn't like it and hired TLA to bring on the magic.

Don't you think it's silly to get a $10k mixer to make a demo or a rough mix?

oop.

forgive my ignorance but,..what's a "matrix" version?

outofphase · 16th May 2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

forgive my ignorance but,..what's a "matrix" version?

The "Matrix" are the team of producers of the first record of Avrill Lavigne.

The Matrix

outofphase · 16th May 2008, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealRoach

So apparently we're not allowed to talk about things that have been mentioned in the past?

...Ooops, hope someone hasn't said that before... I'll do a search

The boring thing here is because this specific "CLA" case has been discussed hundreds of times on hundreds of threads. You know, where people can't believe that CLA doesn't touch his settings and if he need's to,he just buy a new 1176.

So yes, please use the search button so at least you know what they are talking bout.

OOP.

Kadden Heart · 16th May 2008, 07:37 PM

hm,...
so,..THEY mixed that song?,...it has a cool vibe, but mix-wise,... i don't think i'd be hiring them to do any work for me. furthermore, while the song has a cool vibe still, it seems they're a little too "hey let's do a million different things to spice this up" but they just on't quite fit in correctly,..

plus they kept tlking about being "sick puppies" in the interview,..seemed very redunantly/delusional to me.

Pastor Obviedo · 16th May 2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

hm,...
so,..THEY mixed that song?,...it has a cool vibe, but mix-wise,...

They mixed that demo that is floating around GS, the final version was mixed by TLA and it is a fine example of what a great engineer can do.

P.

14th May 2008, 01:19 PM	#1
WildCowboys Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VIE Posts: 849	Modern rock mixing - no transients Hi guys, just benn listening to "Over you" by Daughtry. Let´s not discuss the music here, but the sound. What struck me most ist that the elements in the mix have NO bright transients left except for the attack of the bassdrum. Even the snare has no bright attack left. It´s a certain style of mixing taken to the extreme. Very bold and in your face, though quite unnatural. Some will hate the sound, some will love it. The question is, how did the mixer achieve this, and, how much is the mastering (if at all) responsible for the absence of transients. The mastering is over the top too, at least 3dB hotter than what I would ever consider "still ok". But I doubt the mastering crunch is the reason, because if there were transients left in the mix, crunching the 2buss would bring them out even more/brighter. I guess it was done in the mix either by using compressors on everything with extremely short attack times. Or the guy has been using transient designers or such plugins on everything to get rid of ´em. I would LOVE to hear the song unmastered. Is there anyone here who knows somebody involved in the making/mixing/mastering of this record? Rock on! Pat ps - I also think it is necessary to remove transients this much in the mix in order to do the mastering this hot...

14th May 2008, 09:59 PM	#6
audiomichael Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: L. A.-ish Posts: 1,147	I've heard from a couple different 3rd party sources that there's a lot of board saturation happening on CLA TLA mixes. Anyone care to chime in on that? I've tried to mix in that style but have never come close to the loudness yet clarity and punch that they achieve. __________________ Michael Nielsen composer / producer http://www.michaelnielsenmusic.com  My computer is trying to kill me 

15th May 2008, 12:57 AM	#8
AMIEL Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 2,197	Yes Mixed by Chris Lord Alge and mastered by Ted Jensen.....I really like the sound of the Daughtry CD...the sound is great! __________________ Peace. Reuven Amiel. "Get your Focal Monitors!" Send me a PM. "There are no rules, just knowledge, good taste and experimentation" "Music was designed to escape from reality for a moment, not to magnify our fears and problems"

16th May 2008, 01:26 AM	#15
Kadden Heart Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Orlando/San Fernando Valley Posts: 771	i just read 3 interviews with CLA he has a very,..different way of working kinda,.. but read interviews just google his name and read them all,... it offers some really good insight into hiw process and views and such definitely worth the read, i know i'm gonna try using my liquid mix emulations of the gear he mentioned in the way he mentioned and see what i can come up with. one thing to keep in mind is CLA doesn't mix ITB, he mixes on the 4000SSL from the 3348, with TONS of eexpensive, vintage outboard,..and on top of that he mentions using plugins to "start" getting the sound he needs in teh desk,... so no matter how hard we may try,..i have a feeling there's just no substitute for the gear he uses. __________________ "can we make the guitar louder,..and the snare, and kick,..and maybe the bass to, oh and the vocals, and maybe bring up the cymbals a little bit"

16th May 2008, 06:27 AM	#20
TheRealRoach Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 529	Hey people, This is an interview from last year from Sound on Sound.... Lots of pics of his gear as well. From May 2007. My Chemical Romance: Black Parade Some interesting quotes: "The vast array of outboard gear in Lord-Alge's Resonate room is explained by his assertion that hardware effects still sound significantly better than plug-ins, plus the fact that he has most of his boxes permanently set to one setting and hard-wired to specific channels of his SSL. If he finds himself regularly using an additional setting, he tends to buy another copy of the same box for that purpose." - must be nice... the old-skool version of "store preset..." Re: Black Parade "The drums were fairly straightforward: the comp had two snares, stereo toms, hi-hat, stereo overheads and stereo room. I replaced their kick with a clean and punchier kick sample and also added two snare samples — all samples were taken from the track." "When asked what his main ingredient is in achieving this apparent power and loudness, his answer might surprise some. "[...] most of all," he reveals with a smile, "I listen really quietly. When you've been doing this job for a while, you tend to listen at such a low volume that in order for it to hit you in the face, you have to really push it. I listen on [Yamaha] NS10s, the original ones with the covers, plus an old Infinity 12-inch subwoofer that cost me $300, so I can hear the ultra-low end. Listening at low volumes prevents fatigue and you can hear better what's going on. When you turn things up, after a while all your moves become a smear. So when you're doing really critical moves, do them at a low level." "Panning is something I'm not subtle with. It's either left, right, or centre. Absolutely. Unless you're panning an orchestra and you're trying to make it sound like real life, as we did on 'Black Parade'. But I try to make my panning extreme, so it jumps out at the sides." "What will anger me is when someone tries to make my final mix 9dB louder by L1-ing it to the wall, and flattens out my impact, just to make the CD louder. I will already have done all the compression and limiting that I think necessary." __________________ _________ Mike Rocha myspace.com/roachmouthrecords

14th May 2008, 04:09 PM	#2
beau Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California Posts: 65	sounds like a typical chris lordalge mix to me... just not as much crack in the snare... listen to shooter jennings "the wolf" same type of mix. peace beau

14th May 2008, 08:34 PM	#3
WildCowboys Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VIE Posts: 849	who mixed the record? can´t find anything online...

14th May 2008, 09:15 PM	#4
delcosmos Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: COSMOS Posts: 1,223	Chris Lord-Alge is the mixer and Ted Jensen is the mastering Engineer. I am one of those who love the technics of the Lord-Alge brothers. It's an art, a sound that it is really hard to achieve. Best regards. Delcosmos.

15th May 2008, 02:30 AM	#9
EvilE Gear nut Join Date: May 2008 Location: DC/Balt Posts: 145	just read an archived CLG interview on mix magazine's website. pretty sweet. he mixes everything in 16 bit. who knew? e

15th May 2008, 06:39 AM	#11
WildCowboys Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VIE Posts: 849	ok so now we know it´s an Alge piece of work. But anyone knows how they proceed to get rid of any transient? I know they like running stuff through multiple compressors. but it would br great to know if they have a certain chain of settings, like slow attacks to medium attacks into a short attack compressor for example... the sound is interesting, it can sound great (what I thought listening to it in my car), but then again in the studio I thought well it sounds like one pile of lifeless artificial brick that is interrupted only by the kick drum which obviously was mixed in this way so people think "wow, it has punch". but in reality nothing in this mix except the kick (which sounds like it is not part of the mix but on top of it) has any punch. power, yes, but punch, no... whaddayathink? Rock on! Pat ps . and I think it is funny cause they use loads of expensive outboard equipment....it does not sound expensive...it sounds extreme, but not expensive.....

15th May 2008, 07:13 AM	#12
audiovisceral Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 482	An Evening With Chris Lord-Alge Chris Lord-Alge

16th May 2008, 07:48 AM	#22
outofphase Gear maniac Join Date: May 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 229	Again and again and again and again. Boys use the search button, these SOS interview is from May 07 and it was beaten to dead here on GS by all the CLA lovers. How many times do we have to read that CLA buy another 1176 if he needs to move a setting?

16th May 2008, 07:37 PM	#29
Kadden Heart Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Orlando/San Fernando Valley Posts: 771	hm,... so,..THEY mixed that song?,...it has a cool vibe, but mix-wise,... i don't think i'd be hiring them to do any work for me. furthermore, while the song has a cool vibe still, it seems they're a little too "hey let's do a million different things to spice this up" but they just on't quite fit in correctly,.. plus they kept tlking about being "sick puppies" in the interview,..seemed very redunantly/delusional to me. __________________ "can we make the guitar louder,..and the snare, and kick,..and maybe the bass to, oh and the vocals, and maybe bring up the cymbals a little bit"