Why exactly can't they remake certain old vintage gear or something of equal quality?

[Gladstone]

Hey there, just call me a newbie but I'm wondering why exactly they can't make units of either equal or better quality than certain old vintage stuff like the EMT 250 or the Neumann U47. Where exactly lies the problem? Don't they have the blueprints for these units, can't they remake the stuff that isn't avaible anymore? If not, why can't they make anything that sounds better than an old 70's digital reverb. I mean we're 40 years further now and a lot more advanced. Can we remake it or something of equal or higher quality but would the costs nowadays be just too much?

I've searched the forums but couldn't exactly find a thread quite like this. Could anyone please shed some light on this subject?

Thanks!

[theGeek]

You bring up a good point and i think part of the issue is the "nostalgia" of vintage gear.

But in the end I think that they could remake the old gear with the same or equivalent high quality components and end up with excellent results.

I have an amp that was hand-wired to the exact specs of a vintage Marshall Plexi and it ROCKS. Sounds as good as any other Plexi I've ever hear and TONS better than those POS reissues that marshall came out with (cheaper parts)

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

Hey there, just call me a newbie but I'm wondering why exactly they can't make units of either equal or better quality than certain old vintage stuff like the EMT 250 or the Neumann U47. Where exactly lies the problem? Don't they have the blueprints for these units, can't they remake the stuff that isn't avaible anymore? If not, why can't they make anything that sounds better than an old 70's digital reverb. I mean we're 40 years further now and a lot more advanced. Can we remake it or something of equal or higher quality but would the costs nowadays be just too much?

I've searched the forums but couldn't exactly find a thread quite like this. Could anyone please shed some light on this subject?

Thanks!

Here, have a can of worms. Open it whenever you want!!

The U-47 was designed 70 years ago and the components simply aren't available, particularly the tubes. But there are some stunning examples of the design updated ie. the Wunder CM7.

As for an EMT, I should think the components are a lot less esoteric than a U-47 but who has the space and money for a proper plate reverb?

There is plenty of gear at the very least as good as most "vintage" items you can think of, but as was then, is now. It isn't cheap and people (myself included) do tend to stick with what they know.

The new classics will only become classics in 30 years.

[Riccardo]

It would be too expensive (r&d labour and parts) and sell in very small numbers.

Vintage German audio is a fine example. How many V76 would people buy at 5€K a piece in the current studio/recording and world economics climate?

Milos' (Flea), Gunther's (Wagner) and Mike's (Wunder) for example are today's/tomorrow classics but that level of engineering doesn't come cheap and cannot be sold by the tens of thousands.

The level of engineering at that time (state founded) was very high as there were very few budgetary constrains.

We should be happy to have both affordable and usable gear (that almost didn't exist back then) as well as a handful of people crafting a small nunbers of new old classics.

thumbsup

[Gladstone]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Here, have a can of worms. Open it whenever you want!!

The U-47 was designed 70 years ago and the components simply aren't available, particularly the tubes. But there are some stunning examples of the design updated ie. the Wunder CM7.

As for an EMT, I should think the components are a lot less esoteric than a U-47 but who has the space and money for a proper plate reverb?

There is plenty of gear at the very least as good as most "vintage" items you can think of, but as was then, is now. It isn't cheap and people (myself included) do tend to stick with what they know.

The new classics will only become classics in 30 years.

I know about the Wunder and the Wagner but what I mean is; those old tubes existed, why can't they remake them? What's the hold back? No blueprints? No materials? Or would the costs simply be too high?

Reason I took the U47 (maybe not the best because of the Wunder) and EMT 250 is these units are very highly regarded. The EMT 250 is mostly called the best reverb unit in existence, it has an almost (if not full) legendary status but it is a digital reverb. This makes me think it's basically about the money and something of equal quality would just be too expensive to make nowadays.

On a sidenote, if you ever come across a EMT 250 in mint condition, should you buy it? I mean for the quality of the reverb, not because it's old, rare and of status.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

I know about the Wunder and the Wagner but what I mean is; those old tubes existed, why can't they remake them? What's the hold back? No blueprints? No materials? Or would the costs simply be too high?

Reason I took the U47 (maybe not the best because of the Wunder) and EMT 250 is these units are very highly regarded. The EMT 250 is mostly called the best reverb unit in existence, it has an almost (if not full) legendary status but it is a digital reverb. This makes me think it's basically about the money and something of equal quality would just be too expensive to make nowadays.

On a sidenote, if you ever come across a EMT 250 in mint condition, should you buy it? I mean for the quality of the reverb, not because it's old, rare and of status.

You might want to do a few searches and read a bit to fully understand the issues behind the scenes.

Leaving all other concerns aside (different tubes , different stories and different issues) it would be extremely anti-economical to set up a line to regularly produce a small numbers of tubes for a very limited numbers of microphones.

How many tape companies are out there? 20 or 2? How many companies do a PVC capsule? 10 or just 1? And so on. It is a small market (niche, if you prefer) and the current economic climate isn't all that great.

[vernier]

Parts were built different in the old days: magnets, wire, etc, ..and a modern gear builder can't get these parts. Foundrys cranked out stuff for all types of equipment: scientific, medical, audio, and these days, parts and components are completely different. Back then, it was over-built and heavy. Now days, light and small, and integrated on circuit boards.

As for making gear equal or better, there is probably ample supply of it today. You might not find an exact clone of an RCA BA6A, but there are offerings from Retro, Manley, and Fearn, and possibly others that capture the essence of old.
'

[tINY]

Most of that vintage gear is crap if you are looking for true, High-fidelity recordings today. At least they are compared to what you can get for the same money new.

But, they have a familiar set of distortions (a "sound" if you will) that people have grown acoustomed to. But, as has been said, reproducing the equipment today isn't particularly economical.



-tINY

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

Hey there, just call me a newbie but I'm wondering why exactly they can't make units of either equal or better quality than certain old vintage stuff like the EMT 250 or the Neumann U47. Where exactly lies the problem? Don't they have the blueprints for these units, can't they remake the stuff that isn't avaible anymore? If not, why can't they make anything that sounds better than an old 70's digital reverb. I mean we're 40 years further now and a lot more advanced. Can we remake it or something of equal or higher quality but would the costs nowadays be just too much?

I've searched the forums but couldn't exactly find a thread quite like this. Could anyone please shed some light on this subject?

Thanks!

They did try to remake the EMT250 in the Dynatron 255 by G Prime.

It sounds good but lacked the depth of the original.

[dale116dot7]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

The EMT 250 is mostly called the best reverb unit in existence, it has an almost (if not full) legendary status but it is a digital reverb. This makes me think it's basically about the money and something of equal quality would just be too expensive to make nowadays.

Even if you took an EMT 250 and duplicated it as exactly as you could using today's parts (and you could duplicate the operation of a digital circuit relatively easily), and even if it sounded the same and felt the same and looked the same, many people would still say it wasn't as good as the original. What would the market be? Also, there is the issue of the copyright holder of the original programs that ran it (EPROM or ROM or PROM images).

Even just duplicating the hardware and getting it into production would take a year or so, and cost probably $150,000 or more to do the design/prototype work and get the tooling made up. That might be on the low side.

-Dale

[PMoshay]

I think many current companies DO make fantastic gear now.
It just seems they are over shadowed by the massive amount of marketing of low-mid quality gear.

I don't remember having so many choices back in the 80's ........ and i can't imagine the 50's-70's trying to research high end studio gear options.

Maybe we just have TOO MUCH STUFF & INFORMATION NOW.

I also rarely ever had to fix peoples performances back then......but thats another thread.

[Gladstone]

All right, this does shed some light on the subject.

Now, I have found 2 EMT 250's for sale in mint condition, would one purchase these for sound (reverb) quality or would one only purchase it because it's vintage, rare, it'll impress people and you would be able to sell it for more later on.

[tINY]

Buying anything on promise of future value is a dicey proposition without some current utility.

I buy guns - and only the ones I'll shoot. I have parted with a few over the years that I didn't shoot anymore and had high market value.

If you're gonna use it and it's a borderline purchase, then maybe "future value" is a consideration. If it's painful to buy and won't get used much - it doesn't matter what your commodity trading budies are telling you....




-tINY

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Gladstone

All right, this does shed some light on the subject.

Now, I have found 2 EMT 250's for sale in mint condition, would one purchase these for sound (reverb) quality or would one only purchase it because it's vintage, rare, it'll impress people and you would be able to sell it for more later on.

They all sound like great reasons to buy one if you can.

[Gladstone]

Hmmm... That helps but I need to know more, I'll start a topic about it in the high end section.

Thanks a lot guys!

[vernier]

Hmmm... That helps but I need to know more, I'll start a topic about it in the high end section.

Thanks a lot guys!

I already explained it. Theres nothing else to know.
'