Overhead Compression

[wshaw]

Originally Posted by stevesmithfan

I crash the cymbals just enough to get a crash sound, not a ride sound. That's a good point.
Here's me playing a solo using the Moeller technique (triplets in each hand) across the drumset. I hit the crashes just enough to get a crash sound.
Give it a listen.
SoundClick artist: Improv Jazz Drums - page with MP3 music downloads

I can't listen to the file at work, unfortunately. But by the description it's clear that you're playing multi-function, jazz-type cymbals, which are thin enough to crash easily yet dry enough to be used as rides.

Most pop players, as you know, have to use thicker and therefore more specialized cymbals, i.e., separate rides and crashes. That higher-colume setting is the context I was referring to in my post about the A Customs.

[ScumBum]

This is what Andy Wallace does . He rides each cymbal hit . Check it out in this interview . I do this too , ride everything , it gives the song this driving alive feeling but takes forever!!!



Tech Tips from America’s Hottest mixer-Andy Wallace

Well, first of all, I ride them a lot of times because sometimes a cymbal won't be as loud as another cymbal or something. So there's that. But also, in a greater sense — and I think that this is what you're referring to — every cymbal crash will be ridden up maybe 5 or more dB.

Sometimes I will feel that I'm hearing more ambient stuff in the overheads than I want to hear in the mix. So when I get that loud section rocking the way I want, I'll end up with the overheads balanced where I want to hear the ambience and sometimes the cymbals simply won't be loud enough to have the impact that I want.

[dykstraster@gmai]

Originally Posted by lunale

That's interesting. Most likly this will give the smack of the toms and snare, while not taming the cymbals down too far, right?

exactly

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by MushroomKingdom

This is what Andy Wallace does . He rides each cymbal hit . Check it out in this interview . I do this too , ride everything , it gives the song this driving alive feeling but takes forever!!!



Tech Tips from America’s Hottest mixer-Andy Wallace

Well, first of all, I ride them a lot of times because sometimes a cymbal won't be as loud as another cymbal or something. So there's that. But also, in a greater sense — and I think that this is what you're referring to — every cymbal crash will be ridden up maybe 5 or more dB.

Sometimes I will feel that I'm hearing more ambient stuff in the overheads than I want to hear in the mix. So when I get that loud section rocking the way I want, I'll end up with the overheads balanced where I want to hear the ambience and sometimes the cymbals simply won't be loud enough to have the impact that I want.

GREAT read!!
anytime i've seen CLA stuff it's like "yeah, i set levels and choose my settings depending on the song"
Andy really seems to show off some of his technique.
picked up a lot of things from that article to keep in mind

[olivia_nb]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

parrellel compression here... low pass the compressed version with a touch of high pass, high pass the natural.

interesting, I just started eqing my parallel compressed buss too. I had some really over bearing cymbals in the overheads so I low passed going into the compression and it really brought out the toms and kick and it allowed me to high pass the other channels.
Always nice to have an idea validated by fellow slutz.

[edvdr76]

I'm also a parallel compression kind of guy.... I think it just sounds a bit more interesting.

[doorknocker]

Slightly OT but I found the following part of the Andy Wallace interview quite interesting. You hear many folks say 'Don't compress the mix too much because radio will do it anyway and it will sound better when you don't' while AW clearly does the opposite:

'A long time ago, I learned that the great amount of compression in radio broadcasts was seriously changing how the low end [of my mixes] sounded and the balance: how much low end was there, how much of the bass I could hear and other things. That's when I really started experimenting with a substantial amount of stereo compression. And I found that if I had something compressed ahead of time and was happy with the sound of it, the additional compression from the radio station had less effect. So I sort of felt that I was doing damage control, as well as the fact that I liked the sound'

[robot gigante]

I agree about riding the cymbal hits, etc.

Riding into a compressor is nice.

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Slightly OT but I found the following part of the Andy Wallace interview quite interesting. You hear many folks say 'Don't compress the mix too much because radio will do it anyway and it will sound better when you don't' while AW clearly does the opposite:

'A long time ago, I learned that the great amount of compression in radio broadcasts was seriously changing how the low end [of my mixes] sounded and the balance: how much low end was there, how much of the bass I could hear and other things. That's when I really started experimenting with a substantial amount of stereo compression. And I found that if I had something compressed ahead of time and was happy with the sound of it, the additional compression from the radio station had less effect. So I sort of felt that I was doing damage control, as well as the fact that I liked the sound'

yeah,...that part really caught me by surprise,...
not that ALL of his work is very dynamic, but some of the older stuff breathes really well (think, adolescents)

[Jeff Juliano]

When mixing the API 2500 unlinked is amazing on overheads. It does it's thing and brings more excitement to the whole kit.

[audiovisceral]

do you guys know if andy likely means he rides them as a stereo pair or independently?

thanks.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

do you guys know if andy likely means he rides them as a stereo pair or independently?

thanks.

Listening to some of his records, it sounds like he's riding them in stereo pairs. I'd bet (since he works on SSL) that he's got the OHs grouped to a VCA so he can ride them with one fader.

He also rides kick drums up on most downbeats (listen to "Nevermind", particularly the song "In Bloom"), which adds even greater impact.

[Louderock]

Originally Posted by audiovisceral

do you guys know if andy likely means he rides them as a stereo pair or independently?

thanks.

He rides them up as a stereo pair as needed. Sometimes one fader will come up more than the other depending on what side the cymbal is on. Also, he doesn't always pan overheads hard left and right. More like 9 and 3 depending on how the overheads are spread on the recording. I've seen him do his VCA groups as #1 Kick, #2 Snare and #3 Kit. There may be inside/ Outside kick plus sample so the VCA group gives control over all of them with just one fader.

[fooman]

Noob question, what's a VCA group?

[Louderock]

Originally Posted by fooman

Noob question, what's a VCA group?

There are 8 VCA Group faders on the center section of a SSL console. On each channel fader, there is a little dial that can be set to one of these groups. For instance, if you had bass on 2 tracks/ channels of the console, you could turn the dial on each of the bass channels to 2 and the VCA group "2" on the center section would be a master level and mute for those bass channels. It's like a subgroup however audio isn't actually passing through the center section group. VCA is Voltage Controlled Amplifier. It basically adds or subtracts to the voltage of the channel faders that it controls which results in higher or lower volume.

[James Meeker]

I used to squash my overheads a lot, but these days I usually leave them alone. I compress the close mics so heavily that having the oh's squashed as well just had a lame sound overall.

If I *do* compress the overheads I liked to use the Bomb Factor BF76. Nowadays, I'd probably link two of the SSL's compressors together for a little tickle.

I find that the overheads do just fine with buss compression. That's all the squash they need.... which is really mild.

[audiovisceral]

i''m new to fading techniques, so one more: in general, do you guys ride before/after compressing or both?

i'm thinking ride to hit the compressor evenly throughout; comp to taste; then ride again for expression.

thanks again.

also fyi, cla's method is similar

An Evening With Chris Lord-Alge

[mindkontrolle]

Fatso on overheads can be real sweet

[dbbubba]

For me it has just depended on the material being mixed, the room and the drummer.
The recording format (digital VS. analog) also has a large bearing.

I only apply compression it at mix.

I also find that stuff that was recorded to digital requires it even more than stuff recorded to tape.
I just learned and grew accustomed to the sound of OHs coming off of 2" tape (1" in the early days) so it is my "standard" as far as a sound goes.
There is just a silkiness that OHs get when recorded to tape that I miss on digital.
I have recorded to so many digital formats since 1992 (DATS and PCM701 before that) and the cymbals are the one thing that bugs me the most in all digital formats. I have recorded to multitrack digital since 1992 starting with a SONY 3324 DASH up thru PT HD.
I almost instinctively try to re-create that "silkiness" or compression effect from analog tape with a stereo compressor.

I will add this, too.
I like parallel compression and have used it for years before I knew what the term actually meant (more often on vocals in the old days.)
Still, it can add too much room/ambience at times which makes the drums turn into a wash that gets lost in dense material like dense GTR stuff.
It is a case of where the drums sound really cool on their own and in the holes, but the factors that make it sound cool tend to add to the confusion when everything is rocking along.

I try REALLY hard to eliminate superfluous stuff when mixing.
I'll pull lot's of stuff out and too much room can really muddy up a mix in the 100hz to 300 hz range.
I might leave in just enough to hear/feel the room in the holes.

If a fader is down low enough... I'll turn it OFF!

[fooman]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If a fader is down low enough... I'll turn it OFF!

This is still something I have problems recognizing... something that's low and adds to the track vs something that's not needed.