Advice needed about Songwriter / Producer Advances - Real life numbers in 2008

[Rockman]

Hi guys,

Hypothetical situation (although in my case, it might be a possibility)...

Let's say this newly formed, small production company/indie label/publishing company is interested in signing me as both a staff songwriter and a producer... can anyone tell me what would be considered a normal deal these days? If they are considering giving me a yearly advance (or monthly), what would some real life numbers look like these days? Keep in mind that I have never had a cut before, but this company thinks I have some talent and is interested in making a deal with me.

I wanted to add these few details to the scenario:

I want to keep 100% of the writers's share and 50% of the publishing.

I will write "x" amount of songs per year and present them to this company. Whether they release them or not is their perrogative.

I will produce the tracks myself. (The company will eventually record vocals with whatever new artist they choose).

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Question: Should I ask for a separate fee for producing the tracks? Or an all-inclusive monthly (or yearly) amount, including the songwriting advance?

There you have it. If any of you have any real life experience (as opposed to guesses), I would appreciate any info you could share with me. For example, if you could give me 3 possible scenarios (keeping in mind that I insist on keeping 50% of the publishing for the songs I write):

1. A fantastic deal for me (the writer)

2. A normal, acceptable, decent deal

3. A lousy deal for me (the writer)

Thanks guys!

[Rockman]

Thanks for the input Troy. I appreciate it.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

[Randall]

They come in all forms, shapes and sizes.. I have seen a guy get a new Ford Expedition as a signing bonus and an advance and a salary on a straight Pub deal.. I've seen them go for a down payment on a home and a salary. I've seen them go for cash bonus + salary.. there aren't any rules. It is all negotiable. Seems to me though that a Publishing company gets motivated to land you some ripe cuts if and when you get in the hole with them. One good reason to avoid Co-Pub deals.
Keeping half of your Publishing is a whole other angle to the game.. You had best show results or you'll be on the streets in a heartbeat. especially if there is an advance structure in place. If you're asking for 1/2 the Publishing you are basically saying "I don't really need you" and that can be tricky ground if you are not financially secure and can't produce exceptional results, without a proven track record within the industry you probably wont get one of these anyhow, especially if you don't have lots of connections in the industry and don't know established writers to co-write with. A good publishing company will often set you up for co-writes with people who ordinarily wouldn't consider writing with you.
Whatever money an established legit Publisher advances you will be recouped before you ever see a dime.
When you say you will be contractually obligated to submit X number of songs, Those are "acceptable" songs.
There are so many variables and angles to all this that this could turn into a 100 page thread.

If you're negotiating this stuff you need a lawyer

[Randall]

One other thing.. There is a music business sub-forum here. You might try in there

[Rockman]

Understood Randall. Thanks very much.