Is that *your* kick drum?

[karatemanjohnny]

Hi all, I'm tryin to start up a discussion on this. Feel free to participate on any of the points here.

The main points of this post:

With sound-replacer plug-ins, you can replace all of the original player's kick drum hits with a sample, or have a sample play along-side their kick drum hits.

My questions:
(1) Does this limit learning how to properly mic up a kick drum?
(2) Is it 'cheating'? (Avoiding having to get the sound yourself, with your mics and this certain drummer)
(3) Is 'cheating' bad?
(4) Is the similarity of kick drum sounds within a song a result of overcompression? (It seems like there's no dynamic contrast among the kick drum sounds)
(5) Does anyone do this, or not do it, and why?

A little context:

Yesterday, I was listening to Rage Against the Machine and then some Interpol. I paid attention to the drums, specifically the kick drum. Also, I've been doing a lot of sample-based music lately, in Reason. Beats and techno.

And I realized that often, either within a song or across several songs, the kick just sounds like a sample. I heard Rage's kick drum and thought to myself, "I have that kick drum sound on my computer."

I don't do sample-replacing, but I'm wondering if I did, would it make my drum sound better? In that case, why not do it?

Just some stuff that's been on my mind.

[DirkB]

I find nothing more rewarding than having some really quality tracked drums sitting nicely in the mix. I go to great lenghts with mic placement, especially overheads and room and play a lot with baffles.

The day I only start to close mic to have a trigger signal for shitreplacer, I'll stop recording. I mean, what's the fun in that?

Of course, when you're a professional mixer having to mix hits out of garbage tracks, replace all you need .

So yeah, it's sheating, fake, sounds unreal and doesn't provide much enjoyement.
I'm sure in 10-20 years it's like reverb from the 80's: a concept that got carried away in the wrong direction...

Greetings,
Dirk

[5down1up]

you got the RAGTM kick drum on your puter ?

MAN , send it here !!!

i guess your question is deeply related to what " sytle " of music .
never heard a jazz cd with a soundreplaced kick-drum ?

reporting back later

[heinz]

It sorta comes down to whether the goal of the recording to capture the sound of the event, or if the goal is to engineer the event.

[karatemanjohnny]

you got the RAGTM kick drum on your puter ?

it sure seems like it, for at least some songs. I listened to other RATM songs and it was a different sound, for sure. And I'm not challenging that they soundreplace, either.

Popping a great kick sound into a band might work to help it a little, but if the bass and guitars suck, or the vocals are weak, it won't really push them over the edge. It's all gotta be solid.

i guess your question is deeply related to what " sytle " of music .
never heard a jazz cd with a soundreplaced kick-drum ?

yeah, i totally agree. it seems like a lot of mainstream rock that's really produced/processed to be extremely thick and rocking is where it seems like that.

for a lot of jazz, and sooo many styles and songs, soundreplacing wouldn't work. it'd be too obvious. i'd imagine you could change the velocity and attack settings on whatever is playing the sample, so that it relates to the volume of the original sound, then try and automate it, and you could fool some people. but, still wouldn't be good.



what do you all think it does for learning about tracking well?

i think that soundreplacing has different effects for tracking versus mixing engineers.

[karatemanjohnny]

It sorta comes down to whether the goal of the recording to capture the sound of the event, or if the goal is to engineer the event.

i agree; that's exactly what I'm getting at with the end of my last post.

[youngpeluso]

Ive actually had this discussion with the engineer of Rage. (luckily enough) Im pretty sure Rage isnt sample based stuff, but to say that other people arent using Rage's drum samples...good lord. Im guessing their drums are on a few different records today.


When making a record, the point is to make it the best possible...if that means just throwing up a 57 on the kick and replacing it later, so be it. All I care about is that its good.

[cdog]

Getting cool drums sounds is the most fun part of recording IMO...

1) Probably for beginners, but not necessarily... somtimes its a time issue.
2) Yes
3) No, but it is boring.
4) Some players hit the kick the same every time, some not. For a dense rock mix, no kick dynamics is OK, for jazz, not.

I think the first Rage album is far and away the best, from a production/sonics standpoint...

There are no rules... do what you gotta do to get the job done, even if its boring.

[Elsteve9]

Y'know... about a year ago I had a project that I was cleaning up for a friend, and really was looking hard for software to do this...the drums sounded like total crap. I figured that if I could at least replace the kick and snare sounds, it would sound far better. But I wasn't going to sit down and do every stinking song by hand. I didn't care THAT much.
What program can be used to do this? (Sound replacement)
I currently use Cubase SX as my daw....?
Thanks for any and all help,

Stephen

[heinz]

Originally posted by Elsteve9
What program can be used to do this? (Sound replacement)

Drumagog is totally badass, even amazing.

[Elsteve9]

Where can I get it? What does it cost?

Oh, you know what? I think I have the internet here...it just might show up there somewhere....

:-)


-Stephen

[b-magical]

I use samples to beef up the sound abit and add some consitancy to the performance. I rarley fully replace unless I get a project to mix that I didn't track and sounds like shite. I usually duplicate the kick and snare track and trigger Drumagog and tuck the sampled stuff under the live tracks. That way I can still hear the nuances in the drum tracks but still have it sound punchy when some of the hits are a little weak. BTW the site url is www.drumagog.com

Brian

[wags3d]

Anyone know if Drumagog is a plug-in that is used in a program like Sound Forge, or Protools free or a stand alone piece of software? Could I bring over my drum audio files from my Mac to the PC, run the program and then re-export the replaced drum audio back to the Mac (most likely in Wav format)? Second question, does anyone know of a good drum replacement plug that would work within Logic on the Mac, either OSX or OS9?

thanks,
-Wags

[DSD Studios]

I use pro tools for all my trackin. From my experience, the better the pre amp the better the sound. I was using the pre's on my control 24 for all my drums. I started using my Red 1 for my kick mic's and snare and it made a huge difference. Much more thicker sounding, alot more to work with. I was using the same mic's that i was using with the control 24, that being an Audix D6 bout 1 inch from the beater and a Shure Beta 52 just off-axis on the outside edge of the kick. I usually have the guys or gals take off the front head and I deaden up the kick pretty good. I get more of an attack from the Audix and more body from the Shure. When mixing i use ChannelStrip for gating and compression, then eq with the digi eq or mcdsp stuff. Rage's kick's sound good and was most likely cut to 24 track, and if you worked with 24 track you understand how tight and thick sounding a kick can record. As for replacement, never had too, untill the world of punk music invaded my studio. I'm looking to get drum triggers and go that route, just seems alot easier to me. I never could get Sound Replacer to work well and im more of a hardware guy.
Hector Ramirez

[RoundBadge]

Whatever it takes to make it sound good, period.I get stuff to mix and sometimes have no choice but to blend in good samples.When I track, I usually get the results I need, but every so often in the course of overdubing/mixing..things change.sometimes a little added umph or attack or whatever is needed without using a bunch of eq,etc to get it right in the mix. ..I have a friend who produces very high profile rock records ... He prefers tracking drums at Sound City room "A"[Nirvana Nevermind ..etc,etc...], with a very nice choice of hand doctored drums,High end mics, old neve console, etc at his disposal, and he ain't no slouch at getting great drum sounds!.But sometimes he blends in samples to compete with the numerous heavy marshall, boogie, etc wall of guitars in the final mix.I learned the whole soundreplacer thing working on his stuff and believe me , when nescessary ..there ain't no shame in it, ...so long as the end results rock! .......and yes, you Can mess with the dynamics of a sample allowing it to breath in the track ....within soundreplacer itself, automated fader rides, compression, etc..

[Bounce]

It isn't always about whether or not the drums are recorded well or even sound good on their own. Sometimes after tracking basics, an arrangement may evolve or even change directions. At that point a sound that worked initially and has real sonic merit on its own, just isn't the best for the song at this stage. You can engineer a quality recording of a banjo to death and it ain't gonna sound like a nylon guitar (well, that may be worth a challenge haha). Sometimes you get to the end and realize the nylon timbre works better. So augment or replace a kick drum sound. I mean, if you're willing to try to eq and compress it to death anyway, are you getting the true sound of the kick drum? In a perfect world we could all perfectly predict where a given song is gonna end up sonically in the tracking stage but the beauty of music is one can alter course and react to inspiration and sonic events as they take shape. My 2 cents.

Whatever it takes to make it cool. Sometimes you use a weird mic, or odd placement. That's not natural either, right? Same deal :-)

Some recordings require the natural sound of events in the room, some morph into a call for a different color.

[bgrotto]

Most all of my thoughts have been echoed above, except for these few:

- layering in samples (particularly snare samples) allows a great degree of creativity at the mixing stage. For example, sometimes that 6.5x14 steel snare we tracked ain't the best sound for a given song; something a bit smaller and woodier would be ideal. And there wasn't time to go through every snare in the studio to discover that fact during tracking, so now we can layer in a sample to achieve that sound.

- using a sample for room ambience (the Slate Z4 stuff, for example, is ideal for this) in most cases just SLAYS using outboard or a plug.

- even if I've tracked some really great drum sounds, there are occasions when adding a sample that envisions the final drum sound during overdubs can help to excite the musicians and inspire better performances.

To answer the OPs questions:

1) Yes, it does, however samples are much more easily used when good mic technique has been used, and for those of us that don't do outright replacement, great-sounding tracks are still necessary
2) No, unless you consider EQ, compression, and artificial ambience cheating
3) There's no such thing as cheating in audio, so no.
4) Tough question...i don't have an answer there...
5) See above.

[HeavyG]

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

Hi all, I'm tryin to start up a discussion on this. Feel free to participate on any of the points here.

The main points of this post:

With sound-replacer plug-ins, you can replace all of the original player's kick drum hits with a sample, or have a sample play along-side their kick drum hits.

My questions:
(1) Does this limit learning how to properly mic up a kick drum?
(2) Is it 'cheating'? (Avoiding having to get the sound yourself, with your mics and this certain drummer)
(3) Is 'cheating' bad?
(4) Is the similarity of kick drum sounds within a song a result of overcompression? (It seems like there's no dynamic contrast among the kick drum sounds)
(5) Does anyone do this, or not do it, and why?

A little context:

Yesterday, I was listening to Rage Against the Machine and then some Interpol. I paid attention to the drums, specifically the kick drum. Also, I've been doing a lot of sample-based music lately, in Reason. Beats and techno.

And I realized that often, either within a song or across several songs, the kick just sounds like a sample. I heard Rage's kick drum and thought to myself, "I have that kick drum sound on my computer."

I don't do sample-replacing, but I'm wondering if I did, would it make my drum sound better? In that case, why not do it?

Just some stuff that's been on my mind.

This whole concept is one of the big reasons that music SUCKS today...because it isn't a performance. It is the sonic equivalent of one of those player pianos in the mall that rattles off "Canon in D". Pretty...but with NO SOUL. Sure...it sounds great. It isn't a peformance...it is engineered, manipulated, tuned, quantized, sampled and tortured into a sterile representation of what once was played by a musician. Here is a novel concept...if you are going to say that this is a band's record...the band should actually PLAY ON THE DAMNED THING. Amazing...or shiteous...it should be real. I want to hear a an actual person playing an actual drum kit...not some fake ass sample that some shmoe sat up late at night editing into his mix. If that is the case, the album should be titled "Joe Engineer's Operation Mind Crime". Go ahead and torch me...but you know I am right.

[syra]

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

And I realized that often, either within a song or across several songs, the kick just sounds like a sample. I heard Rage's kick drum and thought to myself, "I have that kick drum sound on my computer."

If a drummer is consistent on his loud kicks, after eq and compression the kick drum may easily sound like a "sample". The kick is much more uniform in sound compared to a snare for example cause you don't have a choice of where to hit it...the beater hits on the same spot every single time...

[Methlab]

Rock started merging with Rap/hip hop in the 90s, and now it is about the same. Sampled drums where the producer is more of a star then the band, and tracks are way too processed and overmixed.

I think you are going to see a lot more bands like Kings Of Leon emerge, where the sounds are organic and you are hearing what was played in the room. It's just too easy to rely on a producer if you are an average band. It needs to start with 4 or 5 guys in a room who can play. Those are the bands that have a future, since touring is so much more important now.

Sliding a sample in under a kit can work wonders, but I would much rather hear a real kit that was properly engineered. I would much rather hear huge guitars that can be played live by 2 people. If you do those 2 things then you will not need to sample replace so much because the guitars will sound REAL. They can still be huge. Anybody every listen to Hum? Those guys still have the best big guitar sounds 14 years later, and they could do it LIVE!

[Never1]

99 times out of 100, the end user (read: non technical people who just listen for their own enjoyment) don't give a flying faaack if the stuff is sampled or not. Most, if not all of them don't even know such a technique even exists.

Same goes for autotune or any other plethora of "cheats" we use to kick out a better end product.

[thesteve]

I find I end up using samples with bands who are trying to sound like bands who use samples... could the stenographer read that back to me???

But seriously, if I have Killswitch Engage as reference material from a band, I am probably going to have to use a shwack of samples, because that's what they do on killswitch records. If, however, the band is actually cool and says they dig the drum sound on "Mistaken For Strangers" by The National it will be all room tones and cool sounds.

[Never1]

Originally Posted by thesteve

"Mistaken For Strangers" by The National it will be all room tones and cool sounds.

Was listening to this, just this morning. A gorgeous record, all around.

[princeplanet]

If you're good enough to make drum samples sound great in a mix where everything else sounds great, then you are probably good enough to know how to make real drums sit in a great mix as well.

If you ain't no good at hiding the fact that you're using samples, chances are you ain't no good at hiding eq, compression and gates on "real" drums.

Moral of story = you can't really cheat this shit.....

[tswp1]

totally agree with the post above^.....cant cheat a good sound/mix. ive personally started a sample database of my drum hits from various sessions (feels better that they're my own : ) ) to use as reinforcement, a good kick body or beater sample can prove to be worth its weight in gold when u bring up the bass or the occasional elephant roar in a mix and all of a sudden.....ur awesome kick is worthless....

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

(1) Does this limit learning how to properly mic up a kick drum?

Not if you take the time to learn how to record drums in the first place.

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

(2) Is it 'cheating'? (Avoiding having to get the sound yourself, with your mics and this certain drummer)

Nothing is cheating. If the drums were poorly recorded samples aren't going to help you *that* much anyways.

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

(3) Is 'cheating' bad?

Does it sound good? How could it be cheating?

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

(4) Is the similarity of kick drum sounds within a song a result of overcompression? (It seems like there's no dynamic contrast among the kick drum sounds)

In my opinion and experience you don't want any dynamics on the kick drum for most popular music styles (rock, metal, pop, hip hop). If you're doing a jazz record or something really retro, sure--keep the dynamics.

I should also add that most sample replacement programs allow you to use multisamples and have lots of options for dynamics (keep original dynamics, limit them, or expand them).

Originally Posted by karatemanjohnny

(5) Does anyone do this, or not do it, and why?

Almost everyone uses sample replacement, especially on bigger budget records. If you want a "modern" up-front rock sound you almost have little choice in the matter.

[Igotsoul4u]

i think a blend of "cheating" is good. I will very often tuck 1 or 2 of my favorite kick samples under the recorded kik. I hate it when people completely replace the sounds. I really sounds like a sample repeating over and over. To edit in dynamics is not worth it to me and it means what you recorded was useless. if you can't form a backbone with your own recording then you are cheating IMO.

[zulusound]

I have used (and own) drumagog, mostly when the drummer is so incredibly in-articulate and inconsistant that the song just dies. It's mostly a weak foot or snare that varies 10-20 db that just can't be compressed into a pocket.

But, I'm very sick of generic sounding, triggered sounding drums. Get a good performance, know when it's as good as it can be, and then move on. It's really up to the drummer.

Shitty drum sounds are more unique than something that sounds like a triggered drum machine. But then again, it needs to be well - played shitty drum sounds. Does Shitty= character? I think of some early Elvis Costello albums having a shitty, yet awesome drum sound. Black Sabbath drum sounds (early) are shitty, yet very cool. A lot of David Bowie albums are really shitty sounding on the drums, but they always sound unique and work great. I'm just rambling here, but I like the sound of the Yeah Yeah Yeahs first album drum sounds- they sound real and have lots of character and do not sound triggered.

I'll tell you what I hate, and lot's of people will flame me for this, but I'll say it now:

I HATE THE SOUND OF DW DRUMS.

No character, and about the most generic sounding drums in this current time. The best sounding drums in my opinion are OLD, and if possible, CALF HEADS. Sometimes tuned really high or really low, out of the normal "sweet" range of the drum. Also, wood hooped drums sound killer.

Spend an extra hour or two per song and get a good performance. Then if you need to, put in a 80/20 percent ratio of real to triggered.

And, get as good a monitor mix as you can for a drummer, with good quality headphones. This will help performance and consistency.

Evan

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by jssrecording

When working with samples, try using the FTM Drums they sit really well in a mix.

myspace.com/ftmdrums

When offering advice - try not promoting you're own stuff. You've gained a black mark from me........

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by zulusound

I HATE THE SOUND OF DW DRUMS.

No character, and about the most generic sounding drums in this current time. The best sounding drums in my opinion are OLD, and if possible, CALF HEADS. Sometimes tuned really high or really low, out of the normal "sweet" range of the drum. Also, wood hooped drums sound killer.

Spend an extra hour or two per song and get a good performance.

Evan

DW drums stink IMO...unless you like sounding generic........


I'm not a fan of sample replace because I do in fact think that it has eroded the craft of recording drums...it's a really hard thing to do well and takes a lifetime of continual improvement...from the recording side of the equation, we all must learn and relearn how to capture great drum performances...

from the mix end, you have to use whatever tools you need to get you there....and that can sometimes mean NOT using samples as well.


Nick