THE PHASE!!!How do you use the Phase of track when you are mixing??

[zak7]

Hi!

I got several sessions lately and I found out that in many cases in the BD tracks that if I could flip the phase of one of them, I will get a bigger sound with more bass og the BD sound together.
Now according to that if you flip a phase of one track and you get MORE ....means that that is correct...is that true?

I compared them and check them with different phase analyzers and they are not out of phase ....the weird thing that in any situation...one with or withot flipping the phase they do not show being out of phase.

then I compared my mix in mono and flipped and un-flipped the phase of one BD and did not feel any lack or cancelation in the whole mix..only that flipping the phase of one BD, the BDs together sounded fatter.

I found out that I could find other instruments where you could flip the phase and all of the sudden those intruments sounds better in the mix....again, listening the mix in mono i did not feel a cancelation in the whole mix...only a bit better of clarity in that instrument.

So what that means? they are somehow out of phase..but not totally out of phase?
that is just a trick? what would be THE PERFECT phase of those instruments? (phase flipped or not?)

Can you give an advise about using the phase on a mix? any rules of phase?
Any tips? any great phase analyzer? there is any plug in for mac that you can have a vaiable phase adjuster by degree?

Thanks!

[theblue1]

A thorough think through of the fundamentals of multi-mic recording sounds like the right prescription. Most of the questions you're asking would be well-informed by such an understanding.

Way too many folks seem like they just jump in in the middle (and, I have to admit, that's kind of how I started, too -- I'm entirely sympathetic) and then try to figure out things from the inside out -- where they would likely be far better served by a rigorous and orderly approach to the fundamentals of their craft.


A lot of people seem to try to try to fly by rules-of-thumb, common practices, and one-liner explanations. But, judging from my own experience and the difficulties I had working 'backwards' to something closer to real understanding (where I could think things through clearly for myself), I would have to commend a study of the fundamentals to you.

[zak7]

well....I really do not get your answer....

I am asking something specific ...of course I will study...but I have very specific question that are just not a flip of the phase and wanted to find somebody helpful answering or commenting something about my questions.. and a way how to do it or something that can let me understand what was going on!

thanks anyway..at least you comment could be more positive if youcould give a good article or book about this subject?

[neon]

That is a typical way of some guys to answer here!
Some guys just want to say that they are very knowledgeable ......
The bad thing is that they do not come to give and share with their knowledge.

I would answer your questions but I do not know the right answers.

Interesting questions , so I hope some good GSlut may come to share his knowledge!!

[rcm]

theblue1's answer was not a smart ass answer, or blowing you off. The answer to your question is not a simple one. Its a complex concept that is more appropriate to a chapter of a book rather than an answer on Gearslutz.

The short of it is that you are confusing the concept of tracks that have "inverse" phase relationships and tracks that have distorted phase relationships.

Take theblue1's advice and study up on these fundamentals. It will blow open a whole world of creative possibilities in the studio.

[tINY]

I'm with Blue on this one.

Neither polarity (which is what the "phase" switch changes) is in phase at all frequencies. You only get "right" and "wrong" phase when both mics were exactly the same distance from the source.

Do some reading about comb filtering and non-coincident mic techniques and it will be clearer to you. I don't have time to type out a 6 page tutorial on these things - especially when there are lots out there on line for free...

...of course, if you want to pay for lessons, I can teach - but I'll use a book already out there to go over it....

Stereo Microphone Techniques Explained
Stereo Microphone Techniques Explained

Stereo recording | XY coincident microphones



-tINY

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by zak7

..I got several sessions lately and I found out that in many cases in the BD tracks that if I could flip the phase of one of them, I will get a bigger sound with more bass og the BD sound together.

...then I compared my mix in mono and flipped and un-flipped the phase of one BD and did not feel any lack or cancellation in the whole mix..only that flipping the phase of one BD, the BDs together sounded fatter..

Not sure what to make of the meter, but the shifting of tone is almost unavoidable.

At any amount of time offset there will be cancellations and additions to differing degrees at several or many frequencies.

That plus differences in radiation patterns off the drums, different mic positions plus reflections -never could everything be aligned (or completely delay aligned.
Unless you are speaking of absolute polarity of the whole, flipping polarity of any within the mix alters these (always out of phase to some degree) combinations.

[AMIEL]

That is an interesting subject!
Is totally right what somebody said about total cancelation with the Phase button...for what I see that is not your case.

that may be some kind of in between relationship between the mics of the drum kit that my cause some sort of specific cancelation due to the different speed at what each freq arrives to those mics.

Thereare certain techniques that are more about how you boost or cut the freqs that cause certain problems...there is also a Plug in that have a variable pahse adjustment : check out Voxengo..I do not know if there is a similar plug in for Mac.

Now I am not an expert in that subject ...otherwise I would give you a very specific answer

[the_man361]

sounds like they're not 180 degrees out of phase, but not in phase either.

[JohnReelsound]

Have a listen to the different mics on this session. An acoustic guitar was recorded with six different mics and inevitably there were phase problems. 2 of the mics are 180 degrees out phase with each other and it sounds obvious but some of the other mics are only slightly out
Recording Flamenco Guitar

John

[bgrotto]

Well, theblue1's advice is pretty much dead on...but if you want some specific tips, I'll throw in a few:

- experiment with muting room mics or other mics that may not be necessary. One good place to start is muting one of the kick mics!
- experiment with gating or strip silence. This can remove some of the bleed causing phase issues, and considerably tighten up the overall sound of the kit, especially (IME) the stereo imaging.
- if you have a multi-mic'd drum, make sure the two mics sound OK/in phase solo'd. Then check the phase of every drum with NOTHING muted or solo'd. Here's an easy way to set that up:
- combine multiple mics on single sources in your DAW, then assign them to the same fader on your desk. You can use plugs in the DAW to adjust the phase between multi-mics, and the polarity switch on the desk for the "big picture"
- read a whole lot and experiment

Phase is a pretty crazy thing, and deeply complex. And it's what separates a crap recording from a good one from an amazing one. Best of luck.

[under the fridge]

From what I have read and experienced, phase is one of the reasons why hotshot engineers get paid a lot: they understand it and know how to work with it. Rarely do you have any signals that are gonna be exactly 180 degrees off, unless it's the same track, copied, pasted, and inverted. Other than that, if you're using multiple microphones in a real acoustic environment that you're summing, there will be some phase cancellation, and you're supposed to use the phase flip switch to find the lesser of the two evils. The worst part is that phase problems arising from mic placement pretty much have to be addressed during tracking, after that there is not a whole lot that can be done other than muting offending tracks.

I'd get a book on the subject, or at least a chapter in a book, better yet, several articles on the subject from different people, and then read up on it. While questions like "how do I plug in an XLR cable?" have a clear answer, questions like "how do I approach phase?" are a lot like asking "what happens after I die?" or "is there a god?"

If any of this is wrong though, someone correct me, because I'd love to know that there is some sort of correct, surefire approach.

[Daniel Antix]

I had a similar problem last year while recording guitar with 2 mics and a DI for re-amping. I ended up spending a lot of time on my mic placement to fix the problem... i think from memory the DI was still out but after I offset that by a few miliseconds it fixed my problem...