Paramore-Riot

[Brad McGowan]

Okay after having my curiosity piqued by this thread I went out and bought the CD last night. Here's some of my initial impressions:

1. The band writes catchy pop songs that cater to the tastes of their peer group. It sounds like a band inspired by Jimmy Eat World with a female singer. I wish I was able to write songs like this when I was 18. I'm a bit older now though, and my tastes have changed.

2. The production seems well done and very radio friendly.

3. The drums sounded like there was a healthy dose of samples mixed in. Apparently based on some of the recent discussion there wasn't a ton of sample use. In that case I wish I could have the privelege of working with drummers that could hit their drums consistently. It sounds like a lot of Transient Designer on the snare drum and kick. Was any used? I like how the snare drum is really loud in the mixes. Some bands won't let me get away with that.

4. I like the guitar tones. What amps and cabs were used? Sounds Marshallesque to me...

5. Some people commented that they like the dynamics that the record has. I must have something stuck in my ears because one of my first thoughts was that the record wasn't very dynamic. I especially found the vocals to be extremely levelled in a way I didn't care for. I think the singer can definitely belt it out, but I don't hear a lot of volume change when she really does compared to when she's singing more softly. Has the definition of "dynamics" changed when I wasn't paying attention?

6. I do like a lot of the effects used on the vocals. I think in my own productions that's probably the area where I have trouble. The YouTube clips were enlightening.

Again--congrats on the success!

Brad

[fuzznuts]

Originally Posted by Jack P

Avril Lavigne..

That was my initial thought.
The first time I heard it on the radio, I actually thought it was Avril...
However I went back and checked out some Avril and Paramore mos def has more kick to it. Harder. Not hard but listen for yourself.

Avril is dead, and Paramore fills the gap. Avril thinks she's like Gwen Stefani with her pop poop. Avril wasn't that tough to begin with.. Neither is Paramore, but def. more powerful.

The style of guitar sound is a little thin for me on some songs, def. thin live, however it works great with the mix.

On a regular system it sounds pretty average or above by a bit,
but on a nice system you can hear a lot of extra details and vibe. It really goes far.
Too bad lots of their live performance on MTV for spring break or something sounded like garbage. Her voice was terrible and the geetars were weak. Maybe her voice was beat up for some reason that day, or maybe she just can't hear herself at loud volumes?
On the acoustic/low volume stuff Hailey sounded pretty good.

Have yet to actually see them live for myself at 5000db. Teenie boppers buy out all the damn tickets!

[fuzznuts]

Oh and BTW, regardless of anything I've said that may sound negative at all, I listen to "Riot!" constantly!

[stereomixer]

I finally got called out. Ok I did use the "Rent" soundtrack and Flyeaf as my reference points for the SSL. "(joke)


Why doesn't someone just ask me? It might save hours of guessing.

Some people like the record for the band, some for the production and some for both. I am certainly content either way. It was a fun record to make with very nice people. What more can you ask for?

It is not the only record I have made, there will be many more.

On the sample front I am a little miffed. Is there a hit rock band that has been successful in sales and on radio this century that has not used these tools? Please share.



[quote=erock;2054895]Yeah I can def. hear the SSL. Reminds me of Mayday Parade's "A Lesson in Romantics" (SSL @ Tree Sound) and the RENT soundtrack (dunno about SSL but sounds very very similar)


Surprised to hear about the samples, as well as a lot of people here apparently.

One person said they were a Flyleaf ripoff...you gotta understand they're not a 'new' band. "All We Know is Falling" came out in '05, as did the first Flyleaf cd. I've been listening to Paramore since '05 and I've never thought they have been an 'anyone' ripoff

Th

[guitarwes]

Dude, this album is great. Don't let the winy pusses get you down. I consider it an honor to be able to read threads like this and learn production and engineering techniques from the source. Talking with the actual people behind the songs is like getting lessons from the musicians... the ONLY thing that's possibly better than listening and transcribing!

This may have been answered before and I ignorantly failed to see it, but roughly how many guitars do you tend to layer per song?

Thanks again for discussing everything!!!

[fuzznuts]

Originally Posted by guitarwes

Dude, this album is great.

Agreed, and well crafted.
It actually kind of brought me back out of the woodworks a bit as far as rock music goes!

Originally Posted by guitarwes

Don't let the winy pusses get you down.

But alas, the nature of message boards is what it is.
Anyone can write anything in an emotional or opinionated state in which you can never tell how they are biased (or jealous).
You can hardly take it very seriously!
The response Mr. made "For every person who doesn't like it, there is somebody who does..." or what not, is very true and well put!

[erock]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

I finally got called out. Ok I did use the "Rent" soundtrack and Flyeaf as my reference points for the SSL. "(joke)


Why doesn't someone just ask me? It might save hours of guessing.

Some people like the record for the band, some for the production and some for both. I am certainly content either way. It was a fun record to make with very nice people. What more can you ask for?

It is not the only record I have made, there will be many more.

On the sample front I am a little miffed. Is there a hit rock band that has been successful in sales and on radio this century that has not used these tools? Please share.

for the record, i didnt mean any of my post in a negative way, whatsoever. hope you didnt take it like that.

I would say I like the record mostly because it DOES seem like it was fun to make...Some records 'sound' like it was a pain in the a$$ to make, this doesn't. I hate working on stuff when the band are jerks, takes the life out of it and I think you can hear the difference. Crazy as it sounds

As far as the sampling goes, it's not the fact that it sounds fake as much as it is the fact that its so consistent with using a minimal amount of samples. All that means is there was some great engineering and mixing going on, and hard work from the drummer. It's only ignorance to assume that because its a modern, loud, pop record that all the drums are sampled to the max. Obviously, our ears aren't good enough to hear the difference, yet. Mine included.

And hey...The RENT album sounds great, imo. Drums are very natural sounding and the guitars are gooey. Dunno about Flyleaf, vocals sound wayy too "All Buttons In," even for me. Never really listened to it.

[stereomixer]

YouTube - Let the Flames Begin - Paramore (MTV live)

Someone please tell me how to make "gooey" guitars?






"And hey...The RENT album sounds great, imo. Drums are very natural sounding and the guitars are gooey. Dunno about Flyleaf, vocals sound wayy too "All Buttons In," even for me. Never really listened to it.[/quote]

[Renegade Prod]

haha good call ... does a face melting solo make you gooey? ... now im confusing myself ...

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

On the sample front I am a little miffed. Is there a hit rock band that has been successful in sales and on radio this century that has not used these tools? Please share.

That's a really good question. My gut feeling is that the current answer is no. To that question I have to ask: is there a current rock band that has been successful in sales and on radio that does not make use of sample replacement? I'd seriously like to hear those bands. Can someone suggest some?

thanks,
Brad

[audiomichael]

I never really understood what the big deal is about using drum samples. OK, If you're replacing 100% that's one thing (although sometimes it must be done on crap recordings). Is tucking a sample underneath a drum that different than even using reverb? Reverb is a completely foreign (and artificial) element added to bring out energy, vibe, tone, etc.

This is not a dig on anyone in particular, but deep down I think some people feel validated as an good engineer if they can mix drums without these other tools.

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

I never really understood what the big deal is about using drum samples. OK, If you're replacing 100% that's one thing (although sometimes it must be done on crap recordings). Is tucking a sample underneath a drum that different than even using reverb? Reverb is a completely foreign (and artificial) element added to bring out energy, vibe, tone, etc.

This is not a dig on anyone in particular, but deep down I think some people feel validated as an good engineer if they can mix drums without these other tools.

I agree. And while it does take a great engineer to achieve great drum sounds without samples, the use of samples to enhance drums isn't a poor reflection of the engineer. It's a stylistic choice and it's necessary for certain productions to achieve a certain overall sound and sonic character. Christ, the most successful mixers in the industry REGULARLY use samples to augment their drum sounds. For certain drum sounds, there's really no other way to go about it.

Also, what's so wrong with it if you're using your own samples?

You still made the call on the drum/tuning, picked and placed the mics, treated it with EQ/compression/etc. and got the sound. I'm kind of confused as to why that would reflect badly upon the engineer. David says he used some homemade samples, so why is that a bad thing? They're HIS DRUM SOUNDS and he's using them in a way to achieve sounds that couldn't otherwise be achieved, to create the kind of mix that he wants for the project.

[Louderock]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

That's a really good question. My gut feeling is that the current answer is no. To that question I have to ask: is there a current rock band that has been successful in sales and on radio that does not make use of sample replacement? I'd seriously like to hear those bands. Can someone suggest some?

thanks,
Brad

The first 10 Years record has no samples on any drums for the whole record. The new Alkaline Trio record has no samples.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

I never really understood what the big deal is about using drum samples. OK, If you're replacing 100% that's one thing (although sometimes it must be done on crap recordings). Is tucking a sample underneath a drum that different than even using reverb? Reverb is a completely foreign (and artificial) element added to bring out energy, vibe, tone, etc.

This is not a dig on anyone in particular, but deep down I think some people feel validated as an good engineer if they can mix drums without these other tools.

I agree with you. I use samples sometimes just like you mention...to add some ambience in place of reverb. I usually make my own samples from the track. Just another tool in the toolbox.

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Louderock

The first 10 Years record has no samples on any drums for the whole record. The new Alkaline Trio record has no samples.

Cool, thanks! I'm going to have to check those out. I heard some of the new Alkaline Trio on the radio and it sounded pretty cool.

Brad

[erock]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

YouTube - Let the Flames Begin - Paramore (MTV live)

Someone please tell me how to make "gooey" guitars?

Easy...Caramel.



Or taffy.

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Cool, thanks! I'm going to have to check those out. I heard some of the new Alkaline Trio on the radio and it sounded pretty cool.

Brad

a little OT but when does the new alkaline come out?
(love ak3) and how do you know there are no samples,..is there a "in teh studio" video or osmethin' somewhere?

and DB and the guys,.you'd mentioned mixing the new underoath record, another great band, when do they drop?

[fuzznuts]

Originally Posted by fuzznuts

The style of guitar sound is a little thin for me on some songs, def. thin live, however it works great with the mix.

Let me rephrase after listening some more...
It's not thin. Just sounds different than what I'm used to. Still, deffinitely sounds great in the mix which is put together very well.

[Louderock]

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

a little OT but when does the new alkaline come out?
(love ak3)

July 1 release.

[fuzznuts]

Originally Posted by fuzznuts

The first time I heard it on the radio, I actually thought it was Avril...
However I went back and checked out some Avril and Paramore mos def has more kick to it. Harder. Not hard but listen for yourself.

As a matter of fact, doesn't sound like Avril at all.
I guess the immediate though was triggered by "female fronted rock band and good sounding girl voice from probably cute girl." Avril hardly rocked though. I thought she used to until side-by-side comparison. Night and day.
Pretty alienly different. I actually bought Riot! and it was worth blasting at high volumes.

[Dan Korneff]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

It sounds like a lot of Transient Designer on the snare drum and kick.

that is exactly what you are hearing. that consistant "tick" is from the transient designer. Snare samples were added to increase the "bottom snare" presence. the low thud of the snare is from the compex limiter SMASHING that snare. probably hitting about 20 dB of gain reduction.
Just for comparison, the song "we are broken" has NO samples on it whatsoever. and was also tracked with only 6 mics.

[Blast9]

Nice and open and roomy, with slap-back - A tribute to "Levee"? nice acoustic gtrs too

[Dan Korneff]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

This is not a dig on anyone in particular, but deep down I think some people feel validated as an good engineer if they can mix drums without these other tools.

I had the privilege to peek into the multitracks of a very super famous record that was released in the late 70's... and wouldn't you know it, there was a kick drum sample on it! I was a little shocking because I thought it was all natural.
This is not new technology and some of your favorite records most likely have some sort of drum "augmentation" whether you know it or not.

[bgroup]

I like the record a lot - for some of the writing, the band, and some of the production. And IMO, DB and team are THE deal - big fan of all the work. My only reservation about this disc is I wish it didn't go to that modern rock place - for me the coolest moments on the record are the quieter ones and/or less wall of guitar ones. When this disc goes to that big modern rock place it's less special for me. But, I think it's an amazing record song-wise, band-wise, and production-wise nonetheless... :)

Brent
bgroupmusic.com

[fuzznuts]

Originally Posted by bgroup

I like the record a lot - for some of the writing, the band, and some of the production. And IMO, DB and team are THE deal - big fan of all the work. My only reservation about this disc is I wish it didn't go to that modern rock place - for me the coolest moments on the record are the quieter ones and/or less wall of guitar ones. When this disc goes to that big modern rock place it's less special for me. But, I think it's an amazing record song-wise, band-wise, and production-wise nonetheless... :)
Brent
bgroupmusic.com

I don't think (yes my opinion) that you can really have just one without the other. Part of what makes it interesting are the highs and the lows as far as the loud parts. It gives some variety. I usually go for the loud ones (my bias), and then here and then take a break with the quieter ones and it works out pretty nicely. That way I don't have to switch between this album and others too much when I take a listen.

Loud all the time kills. Quiet all the time puts me to sleep.

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by Dan Korneff

that is exactly what you are hearing. that consistant "tick" is from the transient designer. Snare samples were added to increase the "bottom snare" presence. the low thud of the snare is from the compex limiter SMASHING that snare. probably hitting about 20 dB of gain reduction.
Just for comparison, the song "we are broken" has NO samples on it whatsoever. and was also tracked with only 6 mics.

i hear a lot about the transient designer, is that the UAD plug?
appearantly it's characterisitics are QUITE noticeably unique?

[erock]

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

i hear a lot about the transient designer, is that the UAD plug?
appearantly it's characterisitics are QUITE noticeably unique?

i'm guessing they used the hardware version

Mercenary Audio - SPL Electronics Transient Designer 2

[bgroup]

Originally Posted by fuzznuts

I don't think (yes my opinion) that you can really have just one without the other. Part of what makes it interesting are the highs and the lows as far as the loud parts. It gives some variety. I usually go for the loud ones (my bias), and then here and then take a break with the quieter ones and it works out pretty nicely. That way I don't have to switch between this album and others too much when I take a listen.

Loud all the time kills. Quiet all the time puts me to sleep.

I don't know, I think you can have highs and lows without resorting to the slightly cliched modern rock chorus thing. Truth be told, in the quieter parts it sounds like a Paramore record to me. When the big modern rock thing kicks in it becomes a bit Red Jumpsuit Apparatus (with female vocals!!) for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of RJA (another amazing DB production!) but I think the statement on this record is more original and interesting in it's quieter moments...

In any case, I agree with you - dynamics are important, but I guess I'm just wishing it was done in a different way on this disc... still love it though. :)