Paramore-Riot

[Kadden Heart]

i love the older emo-type bands, and i get REALLY fed up with all the "scene kids" out there today,..it's true,..cookie cutter, scene kids have ruined music for people like me.

but paramore, reminds me of an older catch ypop band, plenty of emotion, and catchy, the music is well written in my opinion, hayley can fu** sing,..her voice gives me tingles sometimes (plus being a young guy myself it doesn't hurt that she's prett cute) but the arrangment just FITS.

and the drums SLAM on this record, ben did a beautiful job.

their last album ws great in myopinion also. just plain poppy,..but not,..like all the brit rock weird stuff that graces mtv nowadays.
(think "vampire weekend")


i wish i could have sat with DB for the mixing of one of these songs, great job

[@Matt]

Oh right, Cool!

Did he do Jimmy Eat Worlds latest album?

I love that album too!

Matt

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by Kadden Heart

not,..like all the brit rock weird stuff that graces mtv nowadays. (think "vampire weekend")b

HOLY CRAP! Don't get me started on Vampire Weekend. Saw them on SNL last week. What a steaming turd!!! How does that even get signed???

Originally Posted by mikymike

You like this sh!!t !!! Id do her-IF SHE'D SHUT THE F!!K UP!!!

Very classy.

Originally Posted by rodreb

Remember......Talent alone is never enough.

I have no idea to what you are refering? Haley? The production? Or perhaps it was just "Random Proverb Thursday"?

Originally Posted by @Matt

The kick and the snare are triggered right? they always sound perfect. i went to one of there shows last month, They blew me away.

I know David says it wasn't triggered, but it really sounds triggered. That being said, if you check out some live footage of the band, the drummer still sounds that way (live triggers maybe).

[fooman]

Yea that's what I was thinking about the drums too, they sound triggered even though the guy says they weren't (mostly).

I'm not an industry pro, so I'm not sure what constitutes 'mostly' triggered tho. ;)

[kadeemusic]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

HOLY CRAP! Don't get me started on Vampire Weekend. Saw them on SNL last week. What a steaming turd!!! How does that even get signed???

Saw that SNL performance too. I actually dug them. They're upbeat, danceable and quite unique. They kinda had a rockabilly, reggae thing going for them. And a string section! Definitely not cookie-cutter, in my view.

Can't really say the same about Paramore. The only time I ever recall hearing a few of their songs was on YouTube. I checked them out out of curiosity, because I've definitely heard the name a lot, even if I never really heard their music anywhere. To me, pop is all about the hooks, and in the case of these guys, I couldn't hear any memorable hooks. I don't even remember the songs at all, other than they had the "emo" pop-punkish vibe.

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by kadeemusic

Saw that SNL performance too. I actually dug them. They're upbeat, danceable and quite unique. They kinda had a rockabilly, reggae thing going for them. And a string section! Definitely not cookie-cutter, in my view.

Can't really say the same about Paramore. The only time I ever recall hearing a few of their songs was on YouTube. I checked them out out of curiosity, because I've definitely heard the name a lot, even if I never really heard their music anywhere. To me, pop is all about the hooks, and in the case of these guys, I couldn't hear any memorable hooks. I don't even remember the songs at all, other than they had the "emo" pop-punkish vibe.

I guess this means that we're not gonna get together anytime soon and listen to music.

[stereomixer]

Some of you like it, some of you hate it, I get it. I am not offended in any way. I can tell you that I worked very hard on that record. So did my crew of Dan Korneff, John Bender and Kato Khandwala.
The mixing was very detailed. I put this record up against many others for comparison. Please do the same. You might be surprised if you understand full dynamic range.

It is not smashed and Ted Jensen added very little eq.

The record will go platinum next month in the USA, Its Gold in the UK and Gold In Canada.
I am ok with this. Paramore are going to be ok.

If anyone wants to have an intelligent conversation about it I am open. Can we please lose the "I wanna bang Hayley" stuff first? I thought his was a forum for engineers and mixers, not pedophiles.

The band worked very hard on this, the drummer Zac was 15 when he played on this, and everyone else was 17, they also wrote the whole record. Some of you guys need to chill out.

If I can help with any intelligent conversation please do not hesitate to ask me, I welcome all ideas and respect everyone's opinion always.
DB

[audioawake]

Appreciate your appearance here. Firstly I wanted to say I love every single sound of this album. Especially snare and powerful bass. The snare is punchy, loud, yet open, with lots of top-end. I know, it would be foolish to ask how you did it, but maybe you could give us some guidelines how to achieve that

Thanks in advance :)

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Some of you like it, some of you hate it, I get it. I am not offended in any way. I can tell you that I worked very hard on that record. So did my crew of Dan Korneff, John Bender and Kato Khandwala.
The mixing was very detailed. I put this record up against many others for comparison. Please do the same. You might be surprised if you understand full dynamic range.

It is not smashed and Ted Jensen added very little eq.

The record will go platinum next month in the USA, Its Gold in the UK and Gold In Canada.
I am ok with this. Paramore are going to be ok.

If anyone wants to have an intelligent conversation about it I am open. Can we please lose the "I wanna bang Hayley" stuff first? I thought his was a forum for engineers and mixers, not pedophiles.

The band worked very hard on this, the drummer Zac was 15 when he played on this, and everyone else was 17, they also wrote the whole record. Some of you guys need to chill out.

If I can help with any intelligent conversation please do not hesitate to ask me, I welcome all ideas and respect everyone's opinion always.
DB

Thanks for posting and we'd love to get some insight on this album.

I know that when I heard the single on MTV about 6 months back, the first thing I thought was "the production on this album is awesome". One of those things you can even pick out on the TV speakers. Love the drums personally... the snare is intense.

I haven't heard the whole album but the single "Misery Business" is great and one of the few modern pop tunes that caught my attention recently.

Couple questions:

1. How much drum editing did you have to do. Quantized? Sample replaced?
2. Was the album tracked to digital or tape?

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by audioawake

Especially snare and powerful bass. The snare is punchy, loud, yet open, with lots of top-end. I know, it would be foolish to ask how you did it, but maybe you could give us some guidelines how to achieve that

totally.. read my mind. If I were going to guess it sounds like a close mic big brass snare sample with a plate reverb. We'll have to see what stereomixer says.

[seawell]

Guys I've been fortunate enough to have the chance to discuss this album with DB by email and he has been extremely gracious with sharing detailed info. If you guys that don't like the album would just please refrain from posting in this thread and move on to the many other threads on Gearslutz then that would be great. This could be a great learning experience for many of us on this board.

[rodreb]

When I said "Remember..... Talent alone is never enough" I was referring to the fact that some people seem to think that if an artist looks good, or unique, or extreme that it somehow makes them not as good of an artist or a "sell-out".

In this visual/video driven world in which we now live a "Look" is quite an advantage and should not be viewed as selling out.

As far as Paramor goes, I heard the CD, I've seen the video, I think they are a very promising band and certainly a lot better than a lot of the people out there.

The CD sounds really good. Production, recording, engineering, all very well done.

ROD
Imaginary Friend Recording

[Kadden Heart]

Originally Posted by seawell

Guys I've been fortunate enough to have the chance to discuss this album with DB by email and he has been extremely gracious with sharing detailed info. If you guys that don't like the album would just please refrain from posting in this thread and move on to the many other threads on Gearslutz then that would be great. This could be a great learning experience for many of us on this board.

well, spill the beans on those damn drums,...
DB any input on mic technique? mix techique?
i can't get over the kick and snare,...
the vocals seem to have a move perfectly within their range,..did you ride the fader a lot or just perfect compression?,..mic and outboard on vocals?

,...any input on the general mics used? (drums, gtr, bass, vox)
maybe what outboard at all?

i know this is a lot to ask,.just any insight owuld be AMAZING
:)

[audiomichael]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Some of you like it, some of you hate it, I get it. I am not offended in any way. I can tell you that I worked very hard on that record. So did my crew of Dan Korneff, John Bender and Kato Khandwala.
The mixing was very detailed. I put this record up against many others for comparison. Please do the same. You might be surprised if you understand full dynamic range.
...
It is not smashed and Ted Jensen added very little eq...

...If I can help with any intelligent conversation please do not hesitate to ask me, I welcome all ideas and respect everyone's opinion always.
DB

David you say it's not slammed (compressed/limited), but I think we can all agree that it's at least a loud sounding record. I've heard Chris L-A say in the past that he doesn't crush the dynamics out of things, but his mixes sound incredibly loud as well. I feel like if I try to achieve that kind of loudness by crushing the 2-bus, I lose definition and dynamics. Lately I've found that I achieve better results by using less bus compression, and more heavy-handed leveling on a per track basis. Also instead of compressing more, if I use EQ make elements sound bigger (I'm kinda simplifying here), this gets louder with a more natural sounding final mix. Instead of using 2 compressors, an Inflator and L2 smashing the mix. Would you be so kind as to comment on your approach to achieving that kind of power and loudness?

Thanks

[biggator6]

Thanks for joining the discussion.. I do love the songs on this album, and really like the recorded sounds (the drums rock hard enough that I assumed they were samples - if they're not.. hats off to you).

Lets talk about the mastering though (which may or may not be your department at all).. you mention that you don't feel like the album is smashed, so I just did a brief sanity check - see the image below, it's a WAV capture of 'Misery Business'. It certainly isn't the worst offender by today's standards, but it's certainly 'loud' to say the least.

Thanks
"-)

[79_Limited]

Finally a band from this generation can actually play and sing. It is hard to tell now days with Pro Tools and the slick video's.

YouTube - misery business (acoustic) - paramore

Riot is a nice slamming record. I am with biggator on the mastering though. My ears were tired a few sons into it. Maybe it is because I am an old fart.

[stereomixer]

OH NO!! THE DREADED PHOTO SNAPSHOT OF THE MASTERING LEVEL...
Something we all love to see right?

Ted Jensen masters a lot of the bigger rock records today. I think we all know that, he also masters for most of the bigger mixers as well. I have known Ted for many years, he mastered one of my own records, that was on vinyl 25 years ago.

The state of mastering today could take up pages here, I am sure it has. Since this is all subjective and there have been numerous articles on this including one I wrote for Rolling Stone last year I think I am going to lay out on this one. We all know what happened, the brick wall is still alive and well for rock music.

The real issue is full dynamic range, can the record be played loud with frequencies hitting your ear at the same time without ripping your head off.?
For me Riot can, It is loud, but even. This is hard to maintain for any mixer today. I do not think this subject can be discussed in a few sentences, it is a battle that has been going for 10 years. When I hear other mixers like Brendan O'Brian and Andy Wallace I know they understand the battle and do a hell of a job combating the state of the audio industry.

As far as the mixing and recording of Riot that is not that easy to explain either.
I really appreciate the drum comments that is always great to hear. Zac is a great drummer and I pushed him pretty hard. There is an article in the new Drum magazine that explains most of it in detail in a 5 page article.

As far as samples go, they were used on every track in different velocities and different rooms throughout the record. Each song has a different set of circumstances. I used 5 snare drums on the record and different Kick configurations as well. The outboard that remained constant was an ADR stereo compressor, a transient designer, an AMS reverb, an SSL 4000 ultimation console and Nuendo platform. I also was not joking when I said I had an SPX90 on a rail and rode it in there at times for that cheap trashy sound on the snare. There were numerous sets of samples used in varying degrees some sent direct and some not.

The snares used were DW, Porkpie, a Tama and a Vinnie Paul. All with mic top and bottom. The kick was extended in a usual dual configuration with a blanket and the mics were strategically placed. The room mics were also placed to enhance the excitement and a mono mic was spanked hard down the center.

The real challenge on this record was to get the band slamming hard and still fit Hayley's voice in there. She is a truly wonderful singer and she really likes to rock hard. It was sometimes not easy fitting all the vocals in with everything pumping so hard.

Mixing is an evolution, there is no magic formula. Most of it has to do with the band and the dynamics they play with. When I mix, I usually work section by section. I would guess there would be hundreds of micro moves at the end, sometimes more.

Songs like Hallelujah took two days, Miz biz was a one day mix.

I hope this helps. Thanks so much for listening to the record and for paying attention to the detail. After all we are all still students of this craft and the good news is if we work hard we will get better everyday.
Recording and Mixing are an evolution of knowledge, a progression of taste, and certainly an understanding of ensemble dynamics. I have been doing this for years and truly believe that I am only scratching the surface one day at a time.
There are no short cuts here.
thanks,
DB

[Kelly644]

You just answered my question before I even asked it. :)

Thanks for the detailed post.

[boingo81]

I'm not a fan of Paramore by any stretch but i do think they are easier to listen to than the vast majority of radio rock/metal/whatever thats around today. For my tastes the record is way too loud and tiring, but at the same time i do think it's kept a lot more clarity than most of the super loud records.

Maybe i am completely out of touch, in fact i know i am, but for me even this Paramore record sounds terrible compared to something like Pixies 'Doolittle'. I could listen to that record all day and come out feeling fresh the other side.

I really don't mean any offense to the guys behind the record, it's just the way i feel about a lot of modern music.

[biggator6]

Thank you so much for that explanation - and I didn't mean to be a smartass with the picture.. it really was for my own sanity.

The recording/mix on that record really is solid and impressive - it's unfair for me to single it out for brick-wall limiting at mastering.

So how about a little explanation on Hayley's vocals? So often here at GS, people say 'start with a great singer'.. you got one, so what'd you do with her? She's got a hell of a set of pipes.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Some of you like it, some of you hate it, I get it. I am not offended in any way. I can tell you that I worked very hard on that record.

Professionalism, thanks.

Originally Posted by stereomixer

The band worked very hard on this, the drummer Zac was 15 when he played on this, and everyone else was 17, they also wrote the whole record. Some of you guys need to chill out.

Ah, that explains my confusion. Truly a teen band playing to teens. Nice job with the mixing.
Did you tweak the drums and the vocal?

[stereomixer]

If you like the pixies and think that is the mixing epicentre, you need to hear Dark side of the moon and Sgt. Peppers. They sound pretty good too.
No offense taken.

I feel the same way you do about a lot of modern music, having said that you are either a part of the solution or part of the problem.




Maybe i am completely out of touch, in fact i know i am, but for me even this Paramore record sounds terrible compared to something like Pixies 'Doolittle'. I could listen to that record all day and come out feeling fresh the other side.

I really don't mean any offense to the guys behind the record, it's just the way i feel about a lot of modern music.[/quote]

[boingo81]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

If you like the pixies and think that is the mixing epicentre, you need to hear Dark side of the moon and Sgt. Peppers. They sound pretty good too.
No offense taken.

I feel the same way you do about a lot of modern music, having said that you are either a part of the solution or part of the problem.

No i didn't mean to say that Doolittle is the pinnacle of mixing, far from it! Just that it is substantially nicer to listen to than most rock records i have heard in recent years, warts and all. I like a wide range of music, Doolittle is just the first record that came to mind when i was trying to come up with something remotely in the same genre as Paramore for comparison (perhaps it's a poor comparison, and i accept that).

Not really sure what i would point to as my favourite mixing jobs, Joe's Garage and Regatta De Blanc would be a couple that come to mind. Maybe they are not regarded as masterpieces in the professional community, but i am just speaking for my own preference. Most of my favourite records are either from before i was born or at least very young, so i'm not coming from a rose tinted nostalgic point of view i just really like the sound of those records. I also like the fact that with older records i can listen to several full length albums in a row if i want to, and still not end up feeling worn out. That's what i was trying to get at with the Pixies comparison, they were a very dynamic band with some rocking songs and the records managed to get all that across to the listener without the pure volume.

Anyway like i said in my first post i do like the mixing job on the Paramore record, particularly in comparison to other recent rock/pop records, it's just the overall volume that kills me. Even if the album were exactly my kind of music i would still find it tough to sit through because of that. Sorry if my first post seemed like i was criticizing your mixing, i guess in general i am just ranting at the results of the volume war.

[Dubnick]

I picked up the album on the basis of that single and maybe I need to give it more of a chance, but I didn't get that into the rest of it songwise, however, I totally concur on the quality of that track song, production and mixwise, aside from those couple spots where the triggering is a bit obvious.

[mikymike]

Originally Posted by stereomixer

Some of you like it, some of you hate it, I get it. I am not offended in any way. I can tell you that I worked very hard on that record. So did my crew of Dan Korneff, John Bender and Kato Khandwala.
The mixing was very detailed. I put this record up against many others for comparison. Please do the same. You might be surprised if you understand full dynamic range.

It is not smashed and Ted Jensen added very little eq.

The record will go platinum next month in the USA, Its Gold in the UK and Gold In Canada.
I am ok with this. Paramore are going to be ok.

If anyone wants to have an intelligent conversation about it I am open. Can we please lose the "I wanna bang Hayley" stuff first? I thought his was a forum for engineers and mixers, not pedophiles.

The band worked very hard on this, the drummer Zac was 15 when he played on this, and everyone else was 17, they also wrote the whole record. Some of you guys need to chill out.

If I can help with any intelligent conversation please do not hesitate to ask me, I welcome all ideas and respect everyone's opinion always.
DB

Doesnt change the fact that they suck!!!

[stereomixer]

I really wanted to say that some people make records and other people just make the furniture, but I am not going to.

Originally Posted by mikymike

Doesnt change the fact that they suck!!!

[Kelly644]

Edit: Question already answered above

[audiomichael]

Hey David, would you mind identifying this mic?

[stereomixer]

Is a Rode Classic 2

Originally Posted by audiomichael

Hey David, would you mind identifying this mic?