Studio Window/Glass

[Jacob H]

Please if this has already been talked about to an extreme point just point me in the right direction...

So Im trying to figure out what I need as far as a studio window that is sound proof. Currently I have a huge (practically 4'x8x) window. Its two 1/4" pains separated by about an inch in between. This is the typical window you see coming up the side of some industrial or office building.

Im about to rebuild my studio and have been using this window in a room that has not been completely isolated, when I do re-do the studio however, the control room will have to be 100% isolated from the floor and am wondering about this window/glass, and if anyone has experience with windows and can point me to a better way to go if this is likely not suitable. Or a way to test a window outside of installing it into an isolated room.

[lasso]

The rules are:

Use two panes of glass of different thickness, each glass having a density equal to or larger than the wall it sits in.

In my situation (double wall w two layers of 13mm drywall on each side) it's one piece 8mm and one piece 10 mm. Glass is roughly three times the density of drywall - hence about 1/3 of the width of the wall in glass. Glass should be spaced minimum 100 mm and so should the walls.

The formula for seperation is is MASS - AIR - MASS.

Good luck.

And do check John Sayers Productions - everything you need to know and a lot more

[nosebleedaudio]

1/2" and 3/8" works good, the bigger the air space the better, 6 to 8 inches is good.
DO Not use 3 layers of glass.

[lordmiguel]

sounds like a nice window.

first, i might agree that an inch might not do it for you. really depends how much isolation you need.

i'd watch your angles and the amount of surface area of glass relative to the room, just to make sure you don't get too many of the wrong reflections.

so if i was going to try to save it, i'd use the window as one "side" of the glass (you said you have a double wall - like this Double Wall Construction at Olympus Mons ) and order a 1/4 inch 4x8 (whatever it calculates out to be) laminated glass angled correctly for the CR side.

if that makes sense.

[Kronos147]

http://www.kronosrecording.com/pictu...r/Lounge82.jpg

http://www.kronosrecording.com/pictu...r/Window72.jpg

http://www.kronosrecording.com/pictu...r/Window71.jpg

I just put a window in my room. Initially, I wanted to save money so I went and ordered two double pain windows, one for each side. While installing, I could tell I made a bad call (Home Depot too, go figure!). I put one window in and returned the other. With only one of those double paned things in it was if there was nothing there.

Then I ordered a piece of glass that was 3/4" thick. It was pricey, about $300-400 for a piece about 4' x 6'.

I built the frame myself, and in the middle of the glass I placed HotWheel and Matchbox Mustangs and Cobras.

The frame is channeled on the bottom, so the glass sits in the channel with a bunch of caulk. The frame is made of 2" x 12" all around, and 2" x 2's" are used to hold the actual glass in place. Again, I used a bunch of caulk while installing.

When the 3/4" glass when in the door right next to it became the weak link. Then I hung a second door. All is good now.

One more thing I had wish I had done when I could get in the wall: I should have poured sand in the wall. Oh well, live and learn.

[DSD_Mastering]

I have 1" laminate, beveled at 30degrees on one side and 3/4" laminate, angled from top to bottom on the other side. space between ranges from 12" to 7". Works like a dream!

Regards,
Bruce

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by Kronos147

I built the frame myself, and in the middle of the glass I placed HotWheel and Matchbox Mustangs and Cobras.

sweet. i would have gone all the way with the Evel Knievel Super Stunt Cycle. how do you get it out though if the chicks don't dig it?

[mikymike]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

DO Not use 3 layers of glass.

Ive heard this before, but, I build rooms for a living and I can gaurantee, in real world aplications, that this works great, better than 2, IMHO.

[mikymike]

Originally Posted by Kronos147

One more thing I had wish I had done when I could get in the wall: I should have poured sand in the wall. Oh well, live and learn.

DO NOT EVER DO THIS W/ A SHEETROCK WALL!!!!!!!!!
Had to go behind another "contractors" handywork at a clients house. Wall blew out, sand everywhere. Not to mention it was a load bearing wall in the basement of a 2 story house.!!!

[Jacob H]

Sounds good guys, I think what Ill try doing is keep the window I have and buy another solid piece of glass to match and space that about 6" away and hope it should do it, if it backfires, I can always just go out and buy another piece of glass to take the spot of the window I have already... slightly cheaper.

[lasso]

Originally Posted by mikymike

Ive heard this before, but, I build rooms for a living and I can gaurantee, in real world aplications, that this works great, better than 2, IMHO.

Not at bass frequencies. It might perform better at the higher freqs, not in the bottom where it's most important. The middle pane acts like a spring a pushes the freq forward to the next pane instead of stopping them.

At least, that's the common knowledge over here: John Sayers Productions - check it out. Still you might disagree.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Kronos147

I built the frame myself, and in the middle of the glass I placed HotWheel and Matchbox Mustangs and Cobras.

In all seriousness, between the panes of glass I put a tubular cloth sack filled with calcium carbonate as a dessicant. Not as nice looking as some model cars, but I was worried about condensation on the interior surfaces of the glass.

If you have a double wall construction, it is best to build two frames, one for each piece of glass and separated by a rubber gasket.

One more thing I had wish I had done when I could get in the wall: I should have poured sand in the wall. Oh well, live and learn.

I had a cinderblock wall in a studio I built. As each course of brick dried, we filled it up with sand, it took a LOT of sand. If we had waited until the wall was finished and poured the sand into the top, it would probably not have settled down properly.

While it worked well soundwise, it constantly sprung leaks and little piles of sand would accumulate in both the control room and the live room. I can't imagine trying it with a sheet rock wall.

[Kronos147]

Originally Posted by mikymike

DO NOT EVER DO THIS W/ A SHEETROCK WALL!!!!!!!!!
Had to go behind another "contractors" handywork at a clients house. Wall blew out, sand everywhere. Not to mention it was a load bearing wall in the basement of a 2 story house.!!!

Originally Posted by joeq

...it constantly sprung leaks and little piles of sand would accumulate in both the control room and the live room. I can't imagine trying it with a sheet rock wall.

On each side of that wall is about 1 1/2" of sheetrock. The sheetrock was not only screwed to the studs but glued too, to avoid any vibration. I was planning to fill the wall just below the windows (about a foot or two of sand I guess). I think the seals would have held, but I will never know now.

[Me_Likey]

I'm sure there's all kinds of things wrong with this, but I ended up finding an old commercial glass door from a store. Thick leaded safety glass in a metal frame. I had to remove the handles and hinges. Built a hole in the wall and floated it on some insulation. It's probably 4' X 6' and actually works pretty well. I also angled it forward slightly to try and beat some standing waves. Nobody knows it's a door until I tell them.

[Sigma]

float the glass..diff thickness and offset plane and all will be well

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

1/2" and 3/8" works good, the bigger the air space the better, 6 to 8 inches is good.
DO Not use 3 layers of glass.

er, why not, I have 4, all different angles and thicknesses and works great. Big too, 6M x 3M. The wall has an air gap b/n inner and outer. The window's are also divided in two sections of 2 panes each to be consistent with the wall's inner gap. Remember that angles help avoid resonances between the sections of glass....

[lasso]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

er, why not,

Because two panes will perform better. It's the air space between the mass that's stopping the sound, more than the mass itself. Using 4 panes you're cutting this important air space down to 1/4 of it's potential. Bad - especially at the hard to stop lower frequencies.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by lasso

Because two panes will perform better. It's the air space between the mass that's stopping the sound, more than the mass itself. Using 4 panes you're cutting this important air space down to 1/4 of it's potential. Bad - especially at the hard to stop lower frequencies.

Hmm, dunno bout that. When I built my pro facility one designer talked me into trying some of my walls (double system) with only one coverage per system instead of 2, claiming that the air gap was more important than the extra mass. He showed me a lot of supporting "theories" and I was sold. Big mistake, those walls have a greatly inferior attenuation when compared to the walls with 4 layers (2 systems each with inner and outer cover).

Be careful when giving advice, some poor schmuck might think we actually know what we're talking about.......

[Ozzy]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Be careful when giving advice, some poor schmuck might think we actually know what we're talking about.......

While im not going to enter the 2 leaf debate, M-A-M system is a widely used and excepted concept, with scientific tests showing an improvement over inner and outer.

These tests show greater attenuation in frequencies lower than 100Htz.

If you test the same systems with STC measuring scale, multiple leafs may show better attenuation than 2 leaf as STC is centred around 500-1000htz (cant remember exactly). However, the 2 leaf will attenuate the lower frequencies better, due to the increased spring (air gap), and the wavelength of lower freqs.

So with all due respect, he has a valid point.

Oz

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Big mistake, those walls have a greatly inferior attenuation when compared to the walls with 4 layers (2 systems each with inner and outer cover).

Originally Posted by Ozzy

While im not going to enter the 2 leaf debate, M-A-M system is a widely used and excepted concept, with scientific tests showing an improvement over inner and outer.

These tests show greater attenuation in frequencies lower than 100Htz.

If you test the same systems with STC measuring scale, multiple leafs may show better attenuation than 2 leaf as STC is centred around 500-1000htz (cant remember exactly). However, the 2 leaf will attenuate the lower frequencies better, due to the increased spring (air gap), and the wavelength of lower freqs.

So with all due respect, he has a valid point.

Oz

Agreed that lasso has a valid point but when it comes to walls (not really sure about windows) princeplanet experience mirrors mine. When it comes to theory vs real experience I'll take real experience as my guide.
Now, back to glass.

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience has been that two panes, 1/2 and 3/4 with 12" of air space generally exceeds the walls around them.

[mikymike]

Originally Posted by lasso

Because two panes will perform better. It's the air space between the mass that's stopping the sound, more than the mass itself. Using 4 panes you're cutting this important air space down to 1/4 of it's potential. Bad - especially at the hard to stop lower frequencies.

I'll say it again. "Ive heard this before, but, I build rooms for a living and I can guarantee, in real world applications, that this works great, better than 2, IMHO."
I've built about 20 rooms in and around Atlanta and when the budget allows I ALWAYS use 3 panes, non-parallel. 3 works better than 2 every time!!!

[lasso]

Originally Posted by mikymike

I'll say it again. "Ive heard this before, but, I build rooms for a living and I can guarantee, in real world applications, that this works great, better than 2, IMHO."
I've built about 20 rooms in and around Atlanta and when the budget allows I ALWAYS use 3 panes, non-parallel. 3 works better than 2 every time!!!

I respect that and I'm not trying to get into an argument. But I gotta say, that it's against what a lot of other people, also making a living of building studios, are saying.

I, myself, have only built my own place, and read a ton of books and internet forums on the subject - and again, I respect your hands on experience. But the common believe is, that a two leaf partition will outperform a three leaf partition.

Have you ever measured the difference - since you claim that a three leaf wins every time?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by lasso

Have you ever measured the difference - since you claim that a three leaf wins every time?

precisely!

Unless someone has actually built two competing windows or walls (using the same total mass, same materials, same spaces, equal seal, and wall thickness) and measured them both, what is the basis for their claims? People making such a test would have to add the mass of the "third leaf" to the two leaves in the "other version" of the wall in order to have a scientific comparison.

three panes of 1/4" glass may indeed work better than two panes of 1/4" glass.

The real question is will it work better than 2 panes of 3/8" glass?

(or a 1/4" and a 1/2"!??)

When it comes to theory vs real experience I'll take real experience as my guide.

when someone's "experience" is limited to one half of a true test, I will take industry accepted, scientifically tested theory every time.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by joeq

Unless someone has actually built two competing windows or walls (using the same total mass, same materials, equal seal, and wall thickness) and measured them both, what is the basis for their claims?

I don't believe that it was stated that we are comparing "same total mass" ideas. It seemed implied to me that those advocating multiple membrane solutions are aware of the extra mass added and actually encouraging it.

Mo Mass, Mo Places, Mo Better.

[joelpatterson]

What if you filled up the space between the glass with water? Made a big aquarium? That might be distracting for the bands... forget it.

Water does have alot of mass, tho, I think scientifically it's an excellent idea.

[big country]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

What if you filled up the space between the glass with water? Made a big aquarium? That might be distracting for the bands... forget it.

Water does have allot of mass, tho, I think scientifically it's an excellent idea.

your best bet would be under a vacuum

sound needs a elastic medium to travel
no medium no sound

different types of gases ?


a fish tank would be cool indeed
but only if I had a disco ball

[Kronos147]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

What if you filled up the space between the glass with water? Made a big aquarium?

I had the idea of trying to make a fake one of mine, fake upper water level, maybe blue tint or something, and a bunch of "swimming" (hanging) fish.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

I don't believe that it was stated that we are comparing "same total mass" ideas. It seemed implied to me that those advocating multiple membrane solutions are aware of the extra mass added and actually encouraging it.

Mo Mass, Mo Places, Mo Better.

But we are ultimately comparing "same total mass" ideas!

The window has not been built yet. If you are going to buy the extra mass, thicker glass, whatever; you could put that mass into three leaves or two.

If you put it into two leaves, you will have the same materials cost, lower construction cost, and better STC.

[Bassmankr]

Simple 1/2" or 7/16" LAMINATED glass should work fine and be the best tradeoff between the strength needed for a large pane and cost. They make laminated with 2 different sizes of the plastic sandwiched between the glass. Get the thicker plastic one, it's better for sound deading. Noise testing data backs this up as the glass industry touts laminated as the best noise solution for commercial glass installs around airports and other high noise areas. Most studio designs I've seen have two separate glass units with at least one pane angled down from a vertical install. I had some extra 1" bullit resistant glass (5 ply laminate) from a jail job that I gave to a friend for his control room and it worked great. Running joke is that he can record in safety now, although I think saying "what flavor squishy would you like" in an Apu accent (ala the Simpsons), or "I'd like a roll of quarters" (as in a banks drive thru) would be just as funny.