1/2 lower - easier to sing?

[quietdrive]

Having an argument with a band at the moment. They wanna record one of their songs a half step lower cause they claim that it's easier to sing.

Any thoughts? I personally think it's BS... a half step wont make things that much easier for the singer.

[Mike Derrick]

I assume your question is serious?

yes sometimes changing the key will suit a singers voice better,....so yes dropping a song by a half step sometimes makes a big difference.

Maybe I take this for granted, I thought it was obvious. But I sing, so maybe it's more obvious to singers. Half step can be a make or break for singers.

Quietdrive do you sing?

And why does it matter to you whether they drop the key of the song or not? Is it already recorded and you need to drop the key in the DAW? I guess I'm not sure why you are arguing for them to NOT drop it,...sometimes I gotta twist singer/songwriters arms to get them to drop a key to fit their voice better.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

.. a half step wont make things that much easier for the singer.

Yes it will. As a singer, I can say that it makes a hell of a difference. A couple years ago I kept going lower and lower. My experimental rock project eventually had my guitar tuned with a low G on my baritone (It's now back up to A). Every half step I went up or down trying to find my range was a difference. You just have to find the right range for the singer.

[Kiwiburger]

Half a step is half a mile for a singer. You could even experiment with much smaller intervals.

[jsteiger]

KISS was always tuned down a half a step, in the old days anyhow. Paul was always hitting his limit at the top off his range. I always thought he sounded great. I'm no singer but I'm sure that a half step helped him tremendously.

Plus, I enjoy the way the guitars sound a little more badass tuned down. Hell, it's half way to "drop D".

[doorknocker]

If you use PT, 'Elastic Time' can work great for that. Just make the whole song run slower and lower-pitched lieke you would with a tape machine! It works great.

It really saved my ass when recording Irish Uilleann Pipes recently for a song in a key that was extremely unfriendly to Pipes.

[The dman]

another vote for 1/2 step can make a huge difference

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Having an argument with a band at the moment. They wanna record one of their songs a half step lower cause they claim that it's easier to sing.

Any thoughts? I personally think it's BS...

That's not an argument your going to win. It's very common practise. I'm a singer and a light baritone. That half step makes the high notes alot easier to get. Every band I've been in I do this for live. U2 did it for years too.

[larrykane]

I completely agree that a half step makes a difference to the singer. There are other considerations, though. The guitar chord structure may involve open string chords that would be lost in the change depending on the key. Retuning the guitar and/or using a capo should help that though, IF the change helps the lead vox really smoke. Another overlooked issue is that every key sounds emotionally different and the half step may (or may not) just sound wierd for that particular song. It may take a full step or minor third to keep the correct emothional flavor.

CONVERSELY- I believe it is true that Barry Gordy of Motown fame used to have the bands play a half step HIGHER for the sessions which produced some huge hits, which caused the singers to strain and gave the song some extra "urgency"

[strewnshank]

You think Axl could hit those notes with standard tunings? Hell no! He could hardly hit them live down a half step to begin with!!

A half step down is a great way to help male vocalists hit the high notes, but changing the key a few notes up or down can really change the performance of the singer. Since a lot of bands get in ruts using "easy" guitar keys (D, E, G, A), transposing the song can open up some new oppertunities for the singer to get some new melodic ideas in a tune. Try changing a song from E minor to C minor and see what happens. It can be pretty cool for the person singing the melody.

[larrykane]

Another thought. If the band is a group that plays out a lot, book the sessions in the evening as the singer (and the whole band) will be more inclined to groove and be loose since that's when they usually do it. (biorhythms?) (This is tip my drummer got from Carlos Santana)

[HeavyG]

...a 1/2 step will make it easier to sing. No question. I am assuming that we are talking about Male vocals...as most male singers have a natural range that is better suited to lower registers. A female vocalist (or a male with a higher range) may not see much of a difference...but most will find it much easier.

[joeq]

As a producer, as an engineer, and even just as a drummer observing a rehearsal I have seen a half step down make a big difference to the singer. It's not just hitting that one high note. A singer is not an instrument, he/she is a human animal and the ease of singing a little bit lower accumulates throughout the song not just on the one spot that's hard to get.

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Having an argument with a band at the moment.

that's your problem right there. Even if you weren't wrong, you shouldn't be arguing with the band about little stuff like that. Some would say you shouldn't be arguing with the band at all.

[Kevinlane]

As a professional sideman, you have to ALWAYS make the singer look/sound the BEST. If that means transposing, so what, Music is my bag of M&Ms. I can throw away the brown ones if I need too

Seriously, that is one important axiom that will get you hired as a pro level musician, always make the frontman look/sound good.

[duckoff]

i do it quite often - the vocal is by far the most important part of the song & ( 95% of the time ) will make or break the production, so anything you can do to optimise the performance is essential including .....

- choosing the best key 4 the singer
- good arrangement of song
- good headphone mix / monitoring
- studio atmosphere in keeping with mood of the song
- coaching / encouragement / constructive criticism
- best / most appropriate choice of gear ( mics/pres etc )
- printing out large lyrics
- being prepared so there's no technical probs

you can make an acceptable record with a crap backing track & a great vocal, but it's gonna be alot harder with a great BT & crap vocal.

[lane thaw]

Originally Posted by larrykane

Every key sounds emotionally different and the half step may (or may not) just sound wierd for that particular song. It may take a full step or minor third to keep the correct emothional flavor.

CONVERSELY- I believe it is true that Barry Gordy of Motown fame used to have the bands play a half step HIGHER for the sessions which produced some huge hits, which caused the singers to strain and gave the song some extra "urgency"

You beat me to this. I meet more and more guitar players, not just from Nashville, who tune down half step. I think Stevie Ray also did this. It makes the stuff in E flat so much easier I would guess.

It's still cool that you posted, it's just situational. I've lost some coin on players and studio time only to find, I wanted the key higher to push my voice which seemed to increase the energy of the song.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Having an argument with a band at the moment. They wanna record one of their songs a half step lower cause they claim that it's easier to sing.

Any thoughts? I personally think it's BS... a half step wont make things that much easier for the singer.

You're not a singer, are you?


I keep most of my primary guitars down a half step. Someplace in the last ten or so years I realized that all the songs I'd been singing forever just felt and sounded better on my aging voice down a half step. Since I always prided myself on my wide (if not particularly pleasant) vocal range, I thought that was kind of odd... I've got a 3 octave vocal range (none of it pretty, mind you ) ... how could 1/36th of that make any big difference?

But it sure did. As a consequence, my dread, my classical, my mandolin, my banjo, usually my electric, and the Ovation I usually use for slide in an open tuning are all tuned a half step lower than they would be.



I think Lane (above) has a good point -- sometimes you might want to push a given song up... maybe a half step or maybe more (or down by more, for that matter). I frequently recast a given song in a different key (I get bored easy and only have 150 or so songs) using a capo or just transposition to other fingerings. I like the different sonoroties you get from both vocal and guitar in other keys. It's a cheap way of exploring and potentially re-inventing.

I guess my thinking is that -- at any given point in time and space -- a given song and a given singer may have different optimal keys that bring out different things in the song, the voice, or the accompaniment.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

If you use PT, 'Elastic Time' can work great for that. Just make the whole song run slower and lower-pitched lieke you would with a tape machine! It works great.

It really saved my ass when recording Irish Uilleann Pipes recently for a song in a key that was extremely unfriendly to Pipes.

Did you pitch everything back up afterwards?

[popmann]

If the song is written...and it's pushing too much, a half step makes a HUGE diff. If the singer sounds boring, a half step HIGHER may be the push they need to connect.

FWIW, you know the difference in baritone and tenor range (as broad generalization) is 3 half steps, right? And you obviously should know the difference in those two voices, right? So...yes, a half step makes a big diff. Sometimes it allows the person to pull chest to a given note, where they'd have to blend a half step higher...or pull the lie of the melody away from their passagio...it's NOT just about the extremes of "can they hit that note".

[Ruudman]

+ 1/2 to a lot of posts in this thread

Vocals is king, a 1/2 note step can be quite a distance when it comes to singing, as it can be to other instruments as well.

[popmann]

SRV did it for a different reason, I think...his was about lessening the string tension on his 13s.

And BTW--digital downpitching isn't worth it. Sample rate conversion works, but screws with everything if you're mising ITB. I've tried tons of algorithms...there are certain sounds (like tremolo or a leslie) that it just won't work right on...and the others that it makes a touch squirrelly sounding.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by ryst

Did you pitch everything back up afterwards?

Yes, and it worked pretty well. But it's no big deal, just digital finally catching up to what was common with tape.

[corruptmary]

Why don't you just save a copy of your session and try pitching it down? Chances are it WILL make a difference. But if it doesn't you'll have the original session in the original key.

[Never1]

Personally, I tune everything down 1/2 step for two reasons. One is to make the high notes easier on the voice and another reason is that I enjoy the slight swagger and chunkiness that the slightly lesser tension imparts on my guitar's feel and tone. It sounds bigger and heavier but not in the death metal 7 string dropped A kinda way. Just a bit thicker. When I tune to standard, now, it sounds weird haha.

[ryst]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Yes, and it worked pretty well. But it's no big deal, just digital finally catching up to what was common with tape.

Cool. thumbsup

[davet]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

Having an argument with a band at the moment. They wanna record one of their songs a half step lower cause they claim that it's easier to sing.

Any thoughts? I personally think it's BS... a half step wont make things that much easier for the singer.

A full step is often what I do. I've always thought that many bands/singers record songs in a lower key, then speed them up for mastering. Higher pitched vocals cut through loud guitars and car stereo road noise better. Didn't EVH tune down his guitars a 1/2 step?

DaveT

[rockstar_josh]

I have a friend who is a vocalist in a metal band here. He's not just s screamer, he actually can sing like a normal human being. His band plays in drop C, typical metal stuff.... so he comes to me to record his solo stuff, and the best tuning for the guitar he brought was B, not quite down to C. It was an acoustic with old strings, and we kind of had to get it where it would stay in tune, right? Anyhow, he couldn't do it - he's always sang at C or C# and he was straining to sing even a half step higher, he just couldn't pull it off. So, I would say that a half step makes a huge difference.

[davet]

Originally Posted by rockstar_josh

I have a friend who is a vocalist in a metal band here. He's not just s screamer, he actually can sing like a normal human being. His band plays in drop C, typical metal stuff.... so he comes to me to record his solo stuff, and the best tuning for the guitar he brought was B, not quite down to C. It was an acoustic with old strings, and we kind of had to get it where it would stay in tune, right? Anyhow, he couldn't do it - he's always sang at C or C# and he was straining to sing even a half step higher, he just couldn't pull it off. So, I would say that a half step makes a huge difference.

Holy Cow, drop C!! What do they string their guitars with, bridge cables?
DaveT

[vincentvangogo]

I think Serge Gainsbourg sometimes raised the key when working with female singers, so they would be just at the edge of their range.

[Karloff70]

Can't understand this thread at all! The man is asking about recording. For live, yes, make it easy for the singer if you will, but for recording, surely there is a key where the song 'speaks' the best(by agreement even..)??? Unless the singer actually CAN'T reach this (the implication 'easier' says to me he/she could...) THAT's the key you want to record. Am I alone in thinking it normally quite easy to settle on 'the ideal key' for a particular singer/song combo? If the singer has to struggle a bit, but the result is IT, then let's get to work.....