Depth, Width, Separation and Clarity ITB ?!?!

Teacher · 12th August 2004, 02:39 AM

Dave how do you do it? Deep Wide but still in your face and clear? Especially in the box which is prone to being 2D, less in your face and shrill highs?

I know this is a loaded question but inquiring minds would appreciate at least insight

thanks

TLS · 12th August 2004, 05:49 AM

Looking forward to a reply on this one...

jazzius II · 12th August 2004, 06:50 AM

I'm lost...........i thought Dave P mixes on a fat-assed 9k.....or maybe that was then and this is now.......Dave, do you still hit the GP9 or are you using a plugin?

Teacher · 12th August 2004, 02:52 PM

Let me explain myself a tad more:

I'm not looking for exact plug-in settings, but what plugs-ins you use would be nice and the theory behind using them

also

is there bunch of multing and submixing going on with drums as well as melodies? bunch of aux sends???

ahhhhhhhhhh

NeoVXR · 12th August 2004, 05:44 PM

I'd like to propose an experiment:

find 20 or more commercial albums with nice music but typical in-the-box sound. must be not too bad, not too good. you need to know some details about the production.

now sort them:
a) the engineer is quite young started 100% within the digital domain.
b) the engineer is somewhat older and was a guru with analog gear.

will these groups of specimen sound different - can we find a common structure in the sound within a group?
if yes, then it has much to do with the perception and foresight for which you develop an instinct. IMO to feel how the tracks would sum up, even before they are done, is very different between analog and digital buss.
therefore I am optimistic that after a few years all these mixes will sound much better, not only because of better technology, but much more, because there will be longer, genuine experience with these software tools.

Dave Pensado · 13th August 2004, 05:38 AM

I am working on an answer in Word, and will paste it here. Long answer...about 20 years long....

JB3 · 13th August 2004, 07:10 AM

That, will be worth waiting for...

...JB

Elsteve9 · 13th August 2004, 10:56 PM

Very much looking forward to it...

-Stephen

Teacher · 14th August 2004, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Pensado
I am working on an answer in Word, and will paste it here. Long answer...about 20 years long....

thank you sir you are a gentlemen and a scholar

RaGe · 15th August 2004, 02:36 AM

Teacher · 19th August 2004, 02:46 PM

your not getting off that easy dave

C.Lambrechts · 19th August 2004, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Pensado
I am working on an answer in Word, and will paste it here. Long answer...about 20 years long....

can't wait ....

Renie · 19th August 2004, 04:59 PM

an additional Excel spreadsheet to illustrate your points please.

amnesiacjimmy · 28th August 2004, 12:07 AM

Dave

if you got carpal tunnel syndrome, maybe be easier if you could record your thoughts and put em up as an mp3? Just a suggestion.... ;)

AJ

jlotto · 29th August 2004, 08:55 PM

Will wait as long as possible becuase the answer should be worthwhile and very helpful.

For the first time since I've been at this forum there is an actual well known/well respected (even by the rock dudes) mix engineer who doesn't shun daw's/plug-ins and whose stuff I hear everyday and see on credits in a genre I can releate to.

Teacher · 30th August 2004, 03:47 PM

I think this question pretty much sums up all the mixing questions in the forum....so dave don't worry about replying to the others as long as you do this one!

Teacher · 11th September 2004, 04:26 PM

you can't hide from it dave....

NeoVXR · 11th September 2004, 04:36 PM

and the answer is - 42 !!!

Dave Pensado · 13th September 2004, 07:09 AM

OK, another problem is too much in the middle. Most, if not all synths are NOT stereo. So don't run them hard left and hard right. Run them mono. Pads, strings, etc leave stereo but delay one side 7-14ms. In PT you can shift one side early and the other late by the same amount.
Don't run all your reverbs stereo. Try using the the same setting on two different units. Pan unit one all left, and unit two all right. Use slightly different settings on the two units and you will have stereo verb with a nice hole in the middle instead of mud.

Teacher · 13th September 2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Pensado
OK, another problem is too much in the middle. Most, if not all synths are NOT stereo. So don't run them hard left and hard right. Run them mono. Pads, strings, etc leave stereo but delay one side 7-14ms. In PT you can shift one side early and the other late by the same amount.
Don't run all your reverbs stereo. Try using the the same setting on two different units. Pan unit one all left, and unit two all right. Use slightly different settings on the two units and you will have stereo verb with a nice hole in the middle instead of mud.

HEEYYYY what happened to the essay?!?

thanks for the tip

kenn.michael · 16th October 2004, 09:05 PM

was there ever a continuation of this topic? curious to know where the rest of that essay went as well!!!

jho · 16th October 2004, 11:17 PM

Yes Dave - the Q was Depth, Width, Separation and Clarity ITB... post that word doc baby

TLS · 16th October 2004, 11:34 PM

I'd love to have a read as well :)

//Jonathan

jonnyclueless · 17th October 2004, 06:21 AM

Use the force.

s0nguy · 19th October 2004, 03:41 PM

Maybe a PowerPoint as well!

j/k

-S0nguy

Lectra · 19th October 2004, 06:28 PM

I really hope we still can expect Dave's answer on this one.

We just finished 12 mixes of our new songs.
Everything's recorded on a Neve 8028
8 tracks were mixed on an SSl 4k
4 were mixed itb
Both with lots of the best outboard you can imagine.

2 me the itb mixes sound very different:

* Less P.U.N.C.H.
* Lifeless
* All tracks don't seem 'to fit' with each other, strange kind of seperation (that reads in a bad way)
* indeed more 2D
* Top end more harsh than rich & creamy

Yes, I could say even more demo'ish...
I'm not saying they sound bad just very different.
Maybe i'm exaggerating things a little bit but that's what my ears are tellin' me.
I guess some people have more luck with their itb mixes.
After all it's just a matter of taste, right ?

Now i know what i prefer and that probably means remixing those 4 songs.

Best regards

jlotto · 20th October 2004, 04:01 AM

Took our completed ITB mixes (using all plugins) and brought out 24 stems into ssl 9000 (all faders at "0") and used a tad bit of ssl mix buss compression to 1/2". Used the ssl like a big summing box.

Mixes were on point. We ran off about 10 mixes in just a few hours. Def best of both worlds.

GPl · 21st October 2004, 04:36 AM

I think Dave has left the building

Alécio Costa · 23rd October 2004, 05:29 PM

same here. My mixes using an 02R v2 and some nice outboard sound better than what I tried in the box with Lexiverb, etc.
PT Mix Plus + DSp FArm V5.1.3 2 adat bridges OS 9.2
PSP, TC Works, Serato, Waves, MC DSP, Line6

SnakeCained · 26th October 2004, 01:19 PM

ITB sounds a lot better when you come out into a decent analog stereo device. Suddenly a SSL 384 over the Master outs glues it all together , opens it out , and improves Stereo spread. Now I need a GML 8200 to join it! I have done teh 0db fader thing as well and that works well but takes a while to set up.

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12th August 2004, 02:39 AM	#1
Teacher Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NY Posts: 1,769	Depth, Width, Separation and Clarity ITB ?!?! Dave how do you do it? Deep Wide but still in your face and clear? Especially in the box which is prone to being 2D, less in your face and shrill highs? I know this is a loaded question but inquiring minds would appreciate at least insight thanks __________________ "I hate it when they tell us how far we came to be, as if our people's history started with slavery...." Immortal Technique www.sicbeats.com

12th August 2004, 02:52 PM	#4
Teacher Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NY Posts: 1,769	Let me explain myself a tad more: I'm not looking for exact plug-in settings, but what plugs-ins you use would be nice and the theory behind using them also is there bunch of multing and submixing going on with drums as well as melodies? bunch of aux sends??? ahhhhhhhhhh __________________ "I hate it when they tell us how far we came to be, as if our people's history started with slavery...." Immortal Technique www.sicbeats.com

12th August 2004, 05:44 PM	#5
NeoVXR Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,175	I'd like to propose an experiment: find 20 or more commercial albums with nice music but typical in-the-box sound. must be not too bad, not too good. you need to know some details about the production. now sort them: a) the engineer is quite young started 100% within the digital domain. b) the engineer is somewhat older and was a guru with analog gear. will these groups of specimen sound different - can we find a common structure in the sound within a group? if yes, then it has much to do with the perception and foresight for which you develop an instinct. IMO to feel how the tracks would sum up, even before they are done, is very different between analog and digital buss. therefore I am optimistic that after a few years all these mixes will sound much better, not only because of better technology, but much more, because there will be longer, genuine experience with these software tools. __________________ sorry 4 poor english

13th August 2004, 05:38 AM	#6
Dave Pensado Guest Moderator - September 08 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: los angeles Posts: 125	carpal tunnel syndrome (sic) I am working on an answer in Word, and will paste it here. Long answer...about 20 years long....

12th August 2004, 05:49 AM	#2
TLS Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 45	Looking forward to a reply on this one...

12th August 2004, 06:50 AM	#3
jazzius II Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,005	I'm lost...........i thought Dave P mixes on a fat-assed 9k.....or maybe that was then and this is now.......Dave, do you still hit the GP9 or are you using a plugin?

13th August 2004, 07:10 AM	#7
JB3 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SoCali, USA Posts: 288	That, will be worth waiting for... ...JB

13th August 2004, 10:56 PM	#8
Elsteve9 Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: LA County, CA Posts: 231	Very much looking forward to it... -Stephen

15th August 2004, 02:36 AM	#10
RaGe Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 181

19th August 2004, 02:46 PM	#11
Teacher Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NY Posts: 1,769	your not getting off that easy dave __________________ "I hate it when they tell us how far we came to be, as if our people's history started with slavery...." Immortal Technique www.sicbeats.com

19th August 2004, 04:59 PM	#13
Renie Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 1,785	an additional Excel spreadsheet to illustrate your points please. __________________ www.christisloving.com

28th August 2004, 12:07 AM	#14
amnesiacjimmy Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Leeds UK Posts: 25	Dave if you got carpal tunnel syndrome, maybe be easier if you could record your thoughts and put em up as an mp3? Just a suggestion.... ;) AJ __________________ Who the hell are the Amnesiacs??

29th August 2004, 08:55 PM	#15
jlotto Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gotham City Posts: 640	Will wait as long as possible becuase the answer should be worthwhile and very helpful. For the first time since I've been at this forum there is an actual well known/well respected (even by the rock dudes) mix engineer who doesn't shun daw's/plug-ins and whose stuff I hear everyday and see on credits in a genre I can releate to.

30th August 2004, 03:47 PM	#16
Teacher Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NY Posts: 1,769	I think this question pretty much sums up all the mixing questions in the forum....so dave don't worry about replying to the others as long as you do this one! __________________ "I hate it when they tell us how far we came to be, as if our people's history started with slavery...." Immortal Technique www.sicbeats.com

11th September 2004, 04:26 PM	#17
Teacher Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NY Posts: 1,769	you can't hide from it dave.... __________________ "I hate it when they tell us how far we came to be, as if our people's history started with slavery...." Immortal Technique www.sicbeats.com

11th September 2004, 04:36 PM	#18
NeoVXR Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,175	and the answer is - 42 !!! __________________ sorry 4 poor english

13th September 2004, 07:09 AM	#19
Dave Pensado Guest Moderator - September 08 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: los angeles Posts: 125	more.... OK, another problem is too much in the middle. Most, if not all synths are NOT stereo. So don't run them hard left and hard right. Run them mono. Pads, strings, etc leave stereo but delay one side 7-14ms. In PT you can shift one side early and the other late by the same amount. Don't run all your reverbs stereo. Try using the the same setting on two different units. Pan unit one all left, and unit two all right. Use slightly different settings on the two units and you will have stereo verb with a nice hole in the middle instead of mud.

16th October 2004, 09:05 PM	#21
kenn.michael Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 265	was there ever a continuation of this topic? curious to know where the rest of that essay went as well!!!

16th October 2004, 11:17 PM	#22
jho Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Lowcountry Posts: 1,540	Yes Dave - the Q was Depth, Width, Separation and Clarity ITB... post that word doc baby __________________

16th October 2004, 11:34 PM	#23
TLS Gear Head Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 45	I'd love to have a read as well :) //Jonathan

17th October 2004, 06:21 AM	#24
jonnyclueless Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 800	Use the force.

19th October 2004, 03:41 PM	#25
s0nguy Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 717	Maybe a PowerPoint as well! j/k -S0nguy

19th October 2004, 06:28 PM	#26
Lectra Gear maniac Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SunCity Posts: 199	I really hope we still can expect Dave's answer on this one. We just finished 12 mixes of our new songs. Everything's recorded on a Neve 8028 8 tracks were mixed on an SSl 4k 4 were mixed itb Both with lots of the best outboard you can imagine. 2 me the itb mixes sound very different: * Less P.U.N.C.H. * Lifeless * All tracks don't seem 'to fit' with each other, strange kind of seperation (that reads in a bad way) * indeed more 2D * Top end more harsh than rich & creamy Yes, I could say even more demo'ish... I'm not saying they sound bad just very different. Maybe i'm exaggerating things a little bit but that's what my ears are tellin' me. I guess some people have more luck with their itb mixes. After all it's just a matter of taste, right ? Now i know what i prefer and that probably means remixing those 4 songs. Best regards

20th October 2004, 04:01 AM	#27
jlotto Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gotham City Posts: 640	Took our completed ITB mixes (using all plugins) and brought out 24 stems into ssl 9000 (all faders at "0") and used a tad bit of ssl mix buss compression to 1/2". Used the ssl like a big summing box. Mixes were on point. We ran off about 10 mixes in just a few hours. Def best of both worlds.

21st October 2004, 04:36 AM	#28
GPl Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,294	I think Dave has left the building __________________ Michael Scott --------------------------------------------- "Two degrees in bebop, a PHD in swing, he's the master of rhythm, he's a rock and roll king" -Lowell George-

23rd October 2004, 05:29 PM	#29
Alécio Costa Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Brazil, Florianópolis/SC Posts: 1,264	hi same here. My mixes using an 02R v2 and some nice outboard sound better than what I tried in the box with Lexiverb, etc. PT Mix Plus + DSp FArm V5.1.3 2 adat bridges OS 9.2 PSP, TC Works, Serato, Waves, MC DSP, Line6 __________________ Alécio Costa Studio Music Production/Mastering http://www.aleciocosta.com Listen to my album at: http://www.audiostreet.net/artist.aspx?artistid=38915

26th October 2004, 01:19 PM	#30
SnakeCained Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: LONDON Posts: 642	ITB sounds a lot better when you come out into a decent analog stereo device. Suddenly a SSL 384 over the Master outs glues it all together , opens it out , and improves Stereo spread. Now I need a GML 8200 to join it! I have done teh 0db fader thing as well and that works well but takes a while to set up.

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