Summing Sound With Just Plugin's?

[rackdude]

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by rackdude

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

How can I lose 20 lbs without going to the gym..... And not going on a diet?

[rackdude]

Haha,

But seriously, someone has to have a trick...

[larrykane]

Rackdude
I'm in the same boat, and unfortunately, as you saw in the previous possibly well meaning but not encouraging reply, some just can't think outside of the box about working inside the box.

Gearslutz is the best forum, but the cakewalk forum is mostly guys who work ITB. I cloned your question into a new thread there at the link below. Maybe you want to see if you get some good replies. Like here you'll have to register to get emails telling you there are posts to your thread but its as easy as it is here. Not trying to dis anyone, especially Gearslutz or it's members. This is the best forum, but I want answers too. Maybe we can get some answers and bring them back here.
LK

Summing Sound With Just Plugin's?

[larrykane]

I rest my case-before I even finished writing this post someone offered a constructive suggestion there.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by rackdude

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

There is no definitive "summed sound", so it's very difficult to answer... You may want to check out the URS Channel Strip Pro for a color the 2 buss type of sound (using the 1967, 1970 and 1980 console input stages).

[rackdude]

I know theres no definitive "summed sound", thats why it's in quotations.

It's that, full, analogous sound. Could be from any console, all have different colored, but that, sound that it's like, not sterile.

You know what I am asking for. I am just asking for how some people who are really good in the box can make recordings that fool people to think it's analog. What are your tips? Plugs? How do you get that summed sound?

This is based on the assumption that it's possible to get that good of a sound ITB...

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by rackdude

I know theres no definitive "summed sound", thats why it's in quotations.

It's that, full, analogous sound. Could be from any console, all have different colored, but that, sound that it's like, not sterile.

You know what I am asking for. I am just asking for how some people who are really good in the box can make recordings that fool people to think it's analog. What are your tips? Plugs? How do you get that summed sound?

This is based on the assumption that it's possible to get that good of a sound ITB...

I know exactly what you are asking for.... it's what everyone thinks summing sounds like. A lot of people don't realize there's a strong possibility that an ITB mix could sound better than an OTB mix and vice versa. The problem I see is people believe that there is something within summing that is better, and they don't realize it's just different... and sometimes it sounds worse than just mixing ITB. Analog summing can make mixes sound bigger or smaller sounding.... wider or narrower sounding and all points in between. Not all summing is better, and a lot of summing is actually much worse than just ITB.

Like I said... try out the URS Channel Strip Pro with some of those modules in the input stage. Combine that with the new URS plugin "Saturation". That's as close as you will likely get to what you are looking for. I just want to make the point that what people might think something is, in reality can really end up being a totally different beast.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

How can I lose 20 lbs without going to the gym..... And not going on a diet?

You could not say it better!

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by rackdude

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

Buy a really colored transformer based microphone preamp, which is a fraction of the cost of a real transformer based analog console, and pass it through a converter with high quality professional analog circuitry, and do nothing but record everything with ONE preamp.

I would suggest that you record the sound your looking for.

You might look at a digital recorder as a plain white canvas, and then you might ask yourself, how you want to paint on that canvas.

There is much effort put forth to try and emulate analog in digital. I think that its about finding what you're after and expressing your aesthetic through the recording with choosing the right [gear] microphones; preamps to compliment those microphone's; which will compliment your sources; which will be digitally stored as numerical estimations that can never be improved upon [technically].

Remember, you only get once chance to encode. Encode correctly, and you'll never need one plug in to get what your after. To me; you'll need righteous analog equipment and better than average converters to achieve the goal you have set for yourself.

[A440]

Originally Posted by rackdude

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

It's a tall order simulating a 'summed' sound, and mixing ITB is never going to sound like mixing on a Neve console IMHO. However:

A plugin that is worth trying and is free : Massey Tape Head (medium) AU. I'm assuming that you're running Native on a Mac.

Nice accross vox, bass and drums in particular...and other things too (your ears being the guide)..it adds a touch of analogue tape 'warmth'. May get you part way to your goal .

smassey.com

Other plugins that can help with 'warmth' and 'colour' are PSP Vintage Warmer and Tritone Colortone & Valvetone.

Good luck .

[Bob Olhsson]

The trouble with plug-ins is that all channels are bit for bit identical while every channel on a console is subtly different and unique.

[rkwyent]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

You could not say it better!

Funny Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book says the analog summing boxes are the biggest snake oil at the moment.

What do you guys think of that?

[duckoff]

I am just asking for how some people who are really good in the box can make recordings that fool people to think it's analog.

Thats what the thread should have been titled - the summing method is irrelevant to what you're looking for ( hence the mixed replies )

for analogish sounds ( ie saturation / coloration )

psp vintage warmer
massey tapehead
tritone digital colortone
virsyn tape-thingy ( tried the demo )
anything with a non linear transfer curve ( ie distortion / saturation )
analog gear IRs

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by rackdude

It's that, full, analogous sound. Could be from any console, all have different colored, but that, sound that it's like, not sterile.

You know what I am asking for. I am just asking for how some people who are really good in the box can make recordings that fool people to think it's analog. What are your tips? Plugs? How do you get that summed sound?

This is based on the assumption that it's possible to get that good of a sound ITB...

that "full analogous sound" you refer to is what's known as "a good mix".

ITB, OTB, hybrid, from analogue, to analogue, whatever.

Doesn't really matter. What you're really asking here is "how do I learn to mix ITB" and the answer to that is "practice".

Oh, and duckoff's suggestions for saturation and sim plugins could go a long way to helping with that, and maybe an analogue mix buss chain as well.

[Tube World]

Originally Posted by rkwyent

Funny Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book says the analog summing boxes are the biggest snake oil at the moment.

What do you guys think of that?

I agree with Bob 100%.

People notice when they sum out of the box they get a wider, clearer, more 3 dim sound. This can be true, but its not because of the summing. It has to do with sending your signal through great analog gear that color's it and adds it character to the sound. I love the SPL Mix Dream and wish they had a 2 channel version so I can get that nice sound it gives without spending the money for their bigger version. DAW's can handle 0's and 1's very effectivly as Bob points out in his book. Summing is not the issue.

I also read two summing reviews from Sound on Sound and they said that putting a 2 bus mix through the summing boxes sounded very close to the sound they got summing out of the box with all the channels.

While summing out of the box is a routing headache, I do agree from what I heard out of the summing box shoot outs on gearslutz that they all do something to the mix. Depending on what character you want, will justifiy which one is best for you. Whether it is the Neve, API, SPL or other unit. But again it's not becaused you summed out of the box, it because you ran your signal through the gear. But many don't really want to hear it. That's ok with me. But I guess at the end of the day, are you happy with your mixes. If you are, thats the only thing that matters.

[Texum]

Not wanting to go into a debate of ITB vs OTB summing vs console and so on, I've certainly been able to add somewhat of an analogue-ish "vibe"/"color" in PT with plug-ins like McDsp Analogue Channel, Massey Tape-Head, not to mention the great Chandler EMI Tg limiter. Certainly some nice flavors to have if the case is that you want to add color to your ITB mixes.

.

[juicylime]

Originally Posted by rackdude

What plugs would you guys recommend to get that sound you would get from running the sound through a console or a summing box... but without the analog gear. I know some people are gonna start crying and say I need the gear and all the transformers, and yes, I wish I did... but I need an alternative solution... so, how could you get that sound of being "summed" ITB? Any recommended plugs to make the sound bigger? Somewhat colored?

Get someone to make an impulse response of an expensive summing box then load it up in Audacity.

I will gladly accept paypal donations in return for this information.

[OldTimey]

to simulate a summing box with plugins, just find a color plug that you like, Massey tapehead, or some of the UAD-1 stuff, or the URS thing...and place one of each on on every insert for every track, and then bypass the faders on your DAW, and use the plugin's gain control to mix. (Try to keep the effect subtle though) This will virtually simulate a summing box by imparting very similar distortion to every track.

while a digital plugin is yes, bit for bit identical, as in if you run two of the same exact tracks through it, it will likely output the exact same thing, the deal is that you will be running different tracks/instruments, so whatever shouldn't be a big deal. Every track will be processed differently because every track contains different harmonic content.

anyway, i don't use a summing box, nor do i use this technique either. ive never tried it, i imagine it's a big waste of time, and probably won't make your sound all that much better. but it is, in a digitally simulated way, half of what a summing box does. (there is no way to simulate analog SUMMING digitally obviously)

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by rackdude

I know theres no definitive "summed sound", thats why it's in quotations. It's that, full, analogous sound. Could be from any console, all have different colored, but that, sound that it's like, not sterile.

You know what I am asking for. I am just asking for how some people who are really good in the box can make recordings that fool people to think it's analog. What are your tips? Plugs? How do you get that summed sound?

We have some really good tricks for this "not sterile" sound you seek.

First, we record everything really well, with good mic technique and a high-quality signal chain, mics to converters and everything in the way.

Then, we have it mixed by a really good engineer, using a few carefully selected, high-quality plug-ins.

And that's it. You said it yourself, there is no one "definitive" sound, there's only good sound.

JSL

[A LaMere]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Buy a really colored transformer based microphone preamp, which is a fraction of the cost of a real transformer based analog console, and pass it through a converter with high quality professional analog circuitry, and do nothing but record everything with ONE preamp.

I would suggest that you record the sound your looking for.

You might look at a digital recorder as a plain white canvas, and then you might ask yourself, how you want to paint on that canvas.

There is much effort put forth to try and emulate analog in digital. I think that its about finding what you're after and expressing your aesthetic through the recording with choosing the right [gear] microphones; preamps to compliment those microphone's; which will compliment your sources; which will be digitally stored as numerical estimations that can never be improved upon [technically].

Remember, you only get once chance to encode. Encode correctly, and you'll never need one plug in to get what your after. To me; you'll need righteous analog equipment and better than average converters to achieve the goal you have set for yourself.

This is a solid answer...

This thread is essentially a combination of how I work... Using good pre's on the front end and then using colored plugs like McDsp's Analog channel, the Massey plugs, the EMI filters etc...

Bob also made a great point... I try to use as many different plugs as possible when mixing itb these days.. when I do use the same plugins I try not to replicate the settings on them exactly when using it on similiar tracks.... Might sound odd, but I believe that it makes a difference in the space of a recording/mix.

The chain in the analog world would essentially never be the same on a single channel... I try, somewhat... to replicate that idea in the digital world.

Yes... it's made for purchasing a lot of different eq and comp plugins..

[dbbubba]

This is possibly the most ridiculous thread posted in quite a while.

Summing and adding "analog color" are two completely different things.
Analog/OTB summing and any sound derived from analog tape are completely different things.

I notice that no-one here can describe the "sound" of analog summing or OTB mixing summing without using vague words like "color."
After reading this post I pretty well have the impression that only a few people really know what "sound" they are going after.
Quite a few folks seem to be probing in the dark for some elusive "thing" that "sounds" a particular way.

For one thing, almost no one (including Bob Katz) can accurately describe HOW digital or ITB summing works. I don't mean in loose terms, either.
Anyone with much experience in circuit design CAN describe how analog summing works.
They can also describe WHY it works.

I don't know why someone like Bob Katz (who appears to have a degree of experience) can say that analog summing boxes are "snake oil."
I don't know that I would say that summing boxes do the same job as a good console, but there is no doubt that when they are properly set up they provide a "better" mix.

Bob Katz and anyone who wants to say a summing box is useless or "snake oil" needs to describe why it is so in scientific, technical terms. Don't use words like "analog color" and talk about using tape emulation plugs. That is rediculous!

Personally, I don't use a summing box... I use an actual console. I was required by my job to use ITB mixing foir ten years and I stayed with it after I set up my home studio.
After ten years of mixing ITB I can tell you that it doesn't sound as good, but if you have invested your hard earned money in a rig you won't listen.
You might have happy clients and there is no need to rock the boat.

It won't be until you use a real console in a proper mix environment that you'll experience it.
It also will not happen in one "eureka" moment during a mix session.
You might also not ever get to the point where your "art" requires it.

If your clients stay happy and you are making money, fine.
Just hope that they don't have their stuff mixed by anyone with a better rig.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by rkwyent

Funny Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book says the analog summing boxes are the biggest snake oil at the moment.

What do you guys think of that?

I read Bob Katz stuff and is great!

I think he states that basicly is the sound of the transformers at the 2bus is what makes "that sound"

I am sure of that 100%....now is the "Summing" doing his part?
I am not sure..maybe.....
I tried many summing boxes at the end I got and now and I own an Equinox for color.
If I want something transparent and with great headroom and clarity ...so then I go with a Dangerous 2Bus.

Do I care about that?" the summing" contribution to the sound or not?....I care about sound...when I got the Equinox I did not care what was doing "that sound"...just sounded great to me...same with the Dangerous Music stuff! so I do like a 'good" summing box! prefer it over an ITB mix.

But a Plug in is hard to do what a great analog stuff can do

[dbbubba]

Analog summing doesn't require any transformers.

In fact, I don't know of a summing circuit that requires a transformer to do the actual summing.
Certain older Neves do have a lot of transformers in the output of each section, but that doesn't mean that the transformers are required to sum the channels.

There are the summing boxes that don't have an actual amplifier and allow you to pick your op-amp, but a transformered amplifier is not required.
In other words, you can can choose an amplifier (usually they let you use a mic pre) that has a transformer, but the transformer is not part of the summing per se.

Classic design consoles (MCI, UA, SSL, Sphere, Quad 8, ADM, Neotek, Midas, on and on) DO NOT have a transformer in their summing amp circuit.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Analog summing doesn't require any transformers.

In fact, I don't know of a summing circuit that requires a transformer to do the actual summing.
Certain older Neves do have a lot of transformers in the output of each section, but that doesn't mean that the transformers are required to sum the channels.

There are the summing boxes that don't have an actual amplifier and allow you to pick your op-amp, but a transformered amplifier is not required.
In other words, you can can choose an amplifier (usually they let you use a mic pre) that has a transformer, but the transformer is not part of the summing per se.

Classic design consoles (MCI, UA, SSL, Sphere, Quad 8, ADM, Neotek, Midas, on and on) DO NOT have a transformer in their summing amp circuit.

Exactly...this is why Bob states that the summing boxes are not doing the sound!

he is focus about the transformer part of the equation.
an example could be the Folcrom....requieres an stereo preamp....

[dbbubba]

Well, if that is Bob's arguement, then he is describing apples as oranges.

I might agree if we were strictly talking about passive summing boxes.

Again, we have analog summing and transformers being used to describe the same process.

If I take individual outputs from almost any DAW and run them into a GOOD console with the faders set at unity gain, only use panning and don't use any EQ the same "mix" on an ITB mixer will not sound as good. Period.

You can make acceptable mixes ITB, but a mixer with skill can generally make a better sounding mix on a console.
In all truthfullness... the sound of a "good" mix on an analog console is becoming a rare thing because the easy and cheap route of ITB mixing is being accepted on mega-selling records. The fact that they sell a lot of units and are in wide circulation don't mean that they sound better.

There are a lot of fantastic sounding records that never see mass circulation, but they sound far better than the average, big selling offering.

Not many people ever heard the Sheffiled Labs/Lincoln Mayorga's direct to disc records done in the early to mid '70s (that's direct to LP and not CD.)
Through a great monitoring rig those LPs are a religious experience!

[CorkyTart]

It doesnt matter if it sounds summed, console or itb just make it sound good.

[dbbubba]

Origina