Summing Sound With Just Plugin's?

[GYang]

Originally Posted by rkwyent

Funny Bob Katz's Mastering Audio book says the analog summing boxes are the biggest snake oil at the moment.

What do you guys think of that?

Nothing.
Is he Jesus Christ

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Tube World

I agree with Bob 100%.

People notice when they sum out of the box they get a wider, clearer, more 3 dim sound. This can be true, but its not because of the summing. It has to do with sending your signal through great analog gear that color's it and adds it character to the sound. I love the SPL Mix Dream and wish they had a 2 channel version so I can get that nice sound it gives without spending the money for their bigger version. DAW's can handle 0's and 1's very effectivly as Bob points out in his book. Summing is not the issue.

I also read two summing reviews from Sound on Sound and they said that putting a 2 bus mix through the summing boxes sounded very close to the sound they got summing out of the box with all the channels.

While summing out of the box is a routing headache, I do agree from what I heard out of the summing box shoot outs on gearslutz that they all do something to the mix. Depending on what character you want, will justifiy which one is best for you. Whether it is the Neve, API, SPL or other unit. But again it's not becaused you summed out of the box, it because you ran your signal through the gear. But many don't really want to hear it. That's ok with me. But I guess at the end of the day, are you happy with your mixes. If you are, thats the only thing that matters.

Could not agree more! I have an outboard Joemeek SC 2.2 across the mix buss and mix ITB. Just putting the unit in line clearly widens the mix in a very pleasing way. I can't believe some people won't just use some imagination and help out Rackdude with some plugin advice. I find the sound of Hydratone's eq output emulations very cool, and the "fire knob" dialed to taste, a great way to add harmonic color. The Colortone unit is hands down the best way to achieve just about any flavor you could want. All these Tritone Digital plugins do this by convolution, a great way to really model an analog tone. This can sound very un-ITB. Please check out my ITB VS OTB thread about the subject!

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Well, if that is Bob's arguement, then he is describing apples as oranges.

I might agree if we were strictly talking about passive summing boxes.

Again, we have analog summing and transformers being used to describe the same process.

If I take individual outputs from almost any DAW and run them into a GOOD console with the faders set at unity gain, only use panning and don't use any EQ the same "mix" on an ITB mixer will not sound as good. Period.

You can make acceptable mixes ITB, but a mixer with skill can generally make a better sounding mix on a console.
In all truthfullness... the sound of a "good" mix on an analog console is becoming a rare thing because the easy and cheap route of ITB mixing is being accepted on mega-selling records. The fact that they sell a lot of units and are in wide circulation don't mean that they sound better.

There are a lot of fantastic sounding records that never see mass circulation, but they sound far better than the average, big selling offering.

Not many people ever heard the Sheffiled Labs/Lincoln Mayorga's direct to disc records done in the early to mid '70s (that's direct to LP and not CD.)
Through a great monitoring rig those LPs are a religious experience!

Hi Danny, check out my ITB VS OTB thread about this. It's right up your alley!

[Never1]

Every mix I've done recently has Massey Taped Head, Cranesong Phoenix and PSP Vintage warmer used throughout the session. I have one instance of any one of those 3 on every track/channel within protools and it really made a significant difference in the depth and punch of my mixes, but also seemed to glue the sound together in a pleasant way.

I have all the plugs instantiated on the same row of my PT mixer (usually the very first slot before any other processing) and when I option click and bypass them all at the same time, it's quite a significant downgrade in sonic quality. Things get kinda cold and flat.

The trick is to find what does what, best, and apply the right plug per instrument.

[World Studios]

Well said! I use AC a bit, but Phoenix is a must have - plus the Sonnox Inflator is just perfect for adding overtones in a very nice way to sounds that are a bit dull. Waves Neve, API and SSL plugins are subtle in this field, but they do add some grit. LoFi is not bad either for some stuff... Heck, many plugins can be overdriven a bit for a slight analog vibe, all McDsp ones for sure...

[narcoman]

headroom headroom headroom headroom headroom


oh - and headroom.

8or ten or so stems running into a summing box is easier to mix than doing entirely ITB - because of headroom.

Simple pimple.

I dont buy into the sonic mish mash approach of the summing unit -...

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by narcoman

headroom headroom headroom headroom headroom


oh - and headroom.

8or ten or so stems running into a summing box is easier to mix than doing entirely ITB - because of headroom.

Simple pimple.

I dont buy into the sonic mish mash approach of the summing unit -...

There is increased headroom for dynamic range and frequency response,
when you let storage [track] positions take up their own space and time through singular channel [signal] positions.

Does this not follow the same reasoning for recording with a multitude of microphone's rather than one or two? The reason....separation, and depth of acoustic energy transformed into electrical voltage.

I have noticed that my converters "breath" much better once I have separated the storage positions of my multi-track. I-M-E, FOR MY MUSIC things are much deeper sounding, and there less of a struggle to mix the tones I am after in the analog domain, as things seem to fall into place A LOT better when your computer isn't forced to squeeze out the density and complexity of the frequency response and dynamic range with your digitized audio signals [voltage and time representations gathered with numerical value] through a mathematically "summed" stereo output.

[tomdarude]

Originally Posted by narcoman

headroom headroom headroom headroom headroom


oh - and headroom.

8or ten or so stems running into a summing box is easier to mix than doing entirely ITB - because of headroom.

Simple pimple.

I dont buy into the sonic mish mash approach of the summing unit -...

Amen to that

People just don´t get what analog summing is about i.m.h.o. !

I don´t care for the "sound of analog summing"....also for me ANY type of summing should be clean and transparent (that´s why I use the Dangerous), coloring the signal is the task of outboard ....comps/eqs/tape etc....in my opinion!

Analog Summing changes my WORKFLOW, the way I mix...it makes it actually easier, faster, my gain-staging is less complicated, there´s less A/D-D/A go-rounds for outboard and THEREFORE my mixes sound better in the end, not because of the sound of the box. (and it´s more fun)

there is NO way how you can test or judge this by any a/b comparisons with mp3s over the internet!! it´s ALL about workflow and headroom!

my 2 cts., tom

[rackdude]

Thanks for the replys, I'm gonna check out the Tritone Digital Stuff for sure. I'm using native pc so I can't demo the massy... or the phoenix... or even the McDSP

Thanks for all those who replied!