The "ULTIMATE" Top 10 list on - "HOW TO RUIN YOUR MUSIC BUSINESS"

[dreamsongs]

This thread might sound reversed but it got me thinking about a lot of things that I went thru over the last couple of months. There are many things we want to do or say but have to bite our tongues in order to satisfy our clients and keep people happy.

We always talk about all the things we should do to better our music business but I don't see a list on things we shouldn't be doing or saying that's hurt us in the past or may hurt us in the future.

So...I'm starting a thread on things you wanted to "do or "say" to clients and people you work with but can't because it would surely ruin your business.

The rules are:
- It has to have happened to you personally and...
- please state if it has happened to you as a mixer, producer, musician, engineer etc...

Here's mine from 10 -1 in order of importance. Disclaimer: "Subject to change at anytime".

As a Producer:

10) Don't tell a good client that she's a weak lyricist when she wants to co-write with you.

9) Don't tell a vocalist he can't sing in the english language because of his heavy foreign accent !

8) Don't turn a mom and her daughter away from your studio when the mom says she wants the daughter to be the next "Kelly Clarkson" and she can't hit 2 notes in key.

7) Find better ways to turn people away from your studio when you suspect they may steal your gear sometime during the session.

6) Don't tell the lead guitarist he needs to revise his scales.

5) Don't tell the bass player he's not finding the groove.

4) Don't tell a sensitive female vocalist that "today's not your best day" !

3) Don't turn away clients who have a lot of money to spend in your studio. Even if they suck, it could lead to other opportunities !

2) Don't act like your gear list is too good for somebody's talent level !

and the number one is.....(drumroll please...)

1) Never tell a band that has just hired you to produce their album that - almost every song they have may need to be re-written.

...

[surflounge]

Here's one for you:
Pity the poor soundman

[Me_Likey]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

3) Don't turn away clients who have a lot of money to spend in your studio. No matter how much they suck !

IMO, that's a good way to ruin your business. I've done my fair share of bad singers, songwriters, etc, and I'd rather dig ditches than sit through a CDs worth of sessions gritting my teeth. You'll burn out and get cynical. Not that I ever reached that point

I also got tired of lying - them: "whaddya think?" me: "Oh that's great!"

If you're in this business for the money, find a new business.

OTOH, I don't mind helping somebody who might not have all the skills, as long as they don't bring the attitude. But then again, I'm old and bitter.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Me_Likey

IMO, that's a good way to ruin your business. I've done my fair share of bad singers, songwriters, etc, and I'd rather dig ditches than sit through a CDs worth of sessions gritting my teeth. You'll burn out and get cynical. Not that I ever reached that point

I also got tired of lying - them: "whaddya think?" me: "Oh that's great!"

If you're in this business for the money, find a new business.

OTOH, I don't mind helping somebody who might not have all the skills, as long as they don't bring the attitude. But then again, I'm old and bitter.

What I meant by that was that the people with big bucks and big connections have sent me many other clients. Some of them actually had talent...

IOW, don't piss off people with lots of money and power. Maybe that's what I should've said...

By the way, I love what I do but the only way to make a living out of this is to make money. I have 2 kids and many bills...it is entirely possible as with any endeavor, to really love what you do and still try to make as much as you can with it. I don't feel bad about this...

We don't have to be poor to love what we do...

[Haddox]

As a songwriter/producer.

"I don't care if your cousin Tom is the #3 man at Sony Nashville, I want the lick to start on the 1."

[buckminsta]

Top ten things I haven't said as a Producer:
1. Tell self important famous guy to stop wasting your studio time.
2. Tell other self important famous guy to sound more like a twenty year old version of himself.
3. Tell lead singer to stop working on solo record on his laptop while you're working on his band's current record.
4. Tell engineer that I don't care if he doesn't like the way I arrange his Pro Tools session.
5. Tell self important famous cameo rapper guy that maybe he should have written his verse before coming to the studio and that the one he wrote on the fly wasn't "genius" (Do I sound bitter? I'm not bitter.)
6. Tell R+B Singer that he sounds too much like Michael Jackson to ever make it.
6.5 Tell R+B Singer that he needed to go out and play gigs live if I would ever do more songs for him because it was a pointless exercise without the live show.
7. Tell children's music company to take the damn deal and not worry about giving up %30 percent creative control.
8. Tell Mix Engineer not to tell record company president which song is the single.
9. Tell record company president which song should be the single.
10. Tell manager that manipulating the bands ego is my job, not hers.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by buckminsta

Top ten things I haven't said as a Producer:
1. Tell self important famous guy to stop wasting your studio time.
2. Tell other self important famous guy to sound more like a twenty year old version of himself.
3. Tell lead singer to stop working on solo record on his laptop while you're working on his band's current record.
4. Tell engineer that I don't care if he doesn't like the way I arrange his Pro Tools session.
5. Tell self important famous cameo rapper guy that maybe he should have written his verse before coming to the studio and that the one he wrote on the fly wasn't "genius" (Do I sound bitter? I'm not bitter.)
6. Tell R+B Singer that he sounds too much like Michael Jackson to ever make it.
6.5 Tell R+B Singer that he needed to go out and play gigs live if I would ever do more songs for him because it was a pointless exercise without the live show.
7. Tell children's music company to take the damn deal and not worry about giving up %30 percent creative control.
8. Tell Mix Engineer not to tell record company president which song is the single.
9. Tell record company president which song should be the single.
10. Tell manager that manipulating the bands ego is my job, not hers.

I like some of these...

Come to think of it and with a little more thought, I think we could come up with a top 50.

[Audio Hombre]

3. Tell lead singer to stop working on solo record on his laptop while you're working on his band's current record.

lol !

[bwaudio]

Originally Posted by Me_Likey

I also got tired of lying - them: "whaddya think?" me: "Oh that's great!"

You have to be as honest as possible without crushing their spirit...it's funny when they ask you, but then tell you your opinion is wrong. haha

[Sigma]

i preface my repsonse to new clients ans amatures with..i" I am brutally honest when people ask my OPINION"


err.. with them .i am honest but i tend to be obtuse..like "it needs work".."it can be better" ..".getting a deal is near impossible for anyone today so be sure the journey is as fullfilling to you as your goal" etc etc

that way i can be honest and not offensive

with people who i know and know are good if they ask me about a part i say yeah it's great ..or i think it's sucks ...and then say why as they are pro's and ask knowing that i am not going to coddle their ego

[dan p]

Say what you gotta say!Make the money if you need it!Thats the bottom line unless you are wealthy.You fake it till you make it!


Dan P

[Pasta4lnch]

Originally Posted by dan p

You fake it till you make it!

do whatcha gotta do. . . suck it up sometimes. I'd still rather be in a studio w/ a fool than just about anywhere else

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Sigma

i preface my repsonse to new clients ans amatures with..i" I am brutally honest when people ask my OPINION"


err.. with them .i am honest but i tend to be obtuse..like "it needs work".."it can be better" ..".getting a deal is near impossible for anyone today so be sure the journey is as fullfilling to you as your goal" etc etc

that way i can be honest and not offensive

with people who i know and know are good if they ask me about a part i say yeah it's great ..or i think it's sucks ...and then say why as they are pro's and ask knowing that i am not going to coddle their ego

In one!!! And if they are not of the second sort, or willing to graduate from 1 to 2 swiftly in order to achieve both constructive communication and a best possible result,then I must be too worn and tired these days, for I can not fake it no more and would also rather dig ditches.....

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Pasta4lnch

do whatcha gotta do. . . suck it up sometimes. I'd still rather be in a studio w/ a fool than just about anywhere else

Used to be my standpoint. Turns out these things wear off.....

[Sacalait]

Some of this stuff is meant to be funny but the topic is serious- if you're in the business full time.

My number one way to "ruin your music business" is to NOT use a contract.

My contracts are legal documents, yes. However, its also a model of a 'work order'. That is, the contract states what the client can expect from me and visa versa. This way when anything unforseen pops up, I can quote the contract both of us signed- and thus agreed to. I've learned to include 'limitations' (sessions by appointment only, a limitation of time in the studio, a non-exclusive clause, etc.). Whenever I encounter an 'issue' with a client, I write the solution/limitation into the contract for the next project.

It's the only way to do business professionally.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Sacalait

Some of this stuff is meant to be funny but the topic is serious- if you're in the business full time.

My number one way to "ruin your music business" is to NOT use a contract.

My contracts are legal documents, yes. However, its also a model of a 'work order'. That is, the contract states what the client can expect from me and visa versa. This way when anything unforseen pops up, I can quote the contract both of us signed- and thus agreed to. I've learned to include 'limitations' (sessions by appointment only, a limitation of time in the studio, a non-exclusive clause, etc.). Whenever I encounter an 'issue' with a client, I write the solution/limitation into the contract for the next project.

It's the only way to do business professionally.

All jokes aside, that's bang on the most valuable thing to take note of! Avoid the pain....

[big country]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

What I meant by that was that the people with big bucks and big connections have sent me many other clients. Some of them actually had talent...

IOW, don't piss off people with lots of money and power. Maybe that's what I should've said...

By the way, I love what I do but the only way to make a living out of this is to make money. I have 2 kids and many bills...it is entirely possible as with any endeavor, to really love what you do and still try to make as much as you can with it. I don't feel bad about this...

We don't have to be poor to love what we do...

the tuck your tail between your legs swallow your pride
even if the industry turns to crap syn-drom

imagine creating a program, some one buys that program ten years later becomes the richest man in the world only because he could market it

this society is a lottery backed by a legal system
fools gold
in this industry and in any easily gained monetary system of power you have those that see people go up to quickly and want it
from the beginning be it payola or what ever they do to manipulate the charts now adays , its clear that that this industry has attracted
some low life's


would you and twenty people go build a home build a car and cater them
because they had a Lucky day at chucky cheese or the stock market
working day in day out for years stressing over something that has been built forty years ago paid for fifty times over
mind you they are assholes

think about what we as a society are doing
now we have many other peoples worlds that want to win the lottery

who and why do we build some one up!


I myself don't want to play my life in a lottery
its pappier, its equaled wars that come from greed

I think people need to reason
what are the skills people have that potentially provide worth to a prosperous society



we know what society doesn't need

back on the topic

if your serious about what you do I mean serious
you don't want to play games
hopefully your challenges in life are not to get it easy at the cost of others
not around me

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by big country

if your serious about what you do I mean serious
you don't want to play games hopefully your challenges in life are not to get it easy at the cost of others not around me

Please explain what this means and what you're referring to ?

[dreamsongs]

And yes, some of this stuff is serious although it can also be funny...

#11 on my list - Don't hire a singer or any musician for an original without a "contract for hire".

This is a serious one for sure and it has bitten me in the ass in the past for being trusting.

Last thing you want from a dishonest person is them claiming copyrights over a song that's making a little money just because they were in the room when you recorded it...

This is a long topic on this one but yet another one that could ruin your day, month, year and business.

Be careful !

Anyways, I want to hear more lists. This could be educational for a lot of people...

[big country]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Please explain what this means and what you're referring to ?

do you want to live in times of happy music?
their are artist who earn their money
by giving a positive message

I don't mind a two pack cigarette addiction once in a while
I enjoy a couple beers sometimes
even enjoy a bowl of reefer from time to time

I don't want that crap all the time

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by big country

do you want to live in times of happy music?
their are artist who earn their money
by giving a positive message

I still don't get how that applies to the quote...?

[big country]

matt: if your serious about what you do I mean serious
you don't want to play games hopefully your challenges in life are not to get it easy at the cost of others

not around me

I still don't get how that applies to the quote...?dreamsongs

positive influences - positive music - music of people earning money not making money - people working together - music that doesn't promote violence - music that isn't to sexual - music that inspires- music that doesn't promote flesh peddling-

songs of positive dreams

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by big country

positive influences - positive music - music of people earning money not making money - people working together - music that doesn't promote violence - music that isn't to sexual - music that inspires- music that doesn't promote flesh peddling-

OK...

I'm with you...

[big country]

[Aarhus Lydstudie]

Originally Posted by Sacalait

Some of this stuff is meant to be funny but the topic is serious- if you're in the business full time.

My number one way to "ruin your music business" is to NOT use a contract.

My contracts are legal documents, yes. However, its also a model of a 'work order'. That is, the contract states what the client can expect from me and visa versa. This way when anything unforseen pops up, I can quote the contract both of us signed- and thus agreed to. I've learned to include 'limitations' (sessions by appointment only, a limitation of time in the studio, a non-exclusive clause, etc.). Whenever I encounter an 'issue' with a client, I write the solution/limitation into the contract for the next project.

It's the only way to do business professionally.

I've been working on a standard contract for my studio for some time, and I would love to see yours if that's possible?

[Dean7]

#11 - Being so jaded by the industry that you dislike every human being that walks through your door so much that you make smarmy top 10 lists on the internet about them because you think you're better than them and you have lost sight of why you are doing this in the first place.

(dang, that was a long sentence)

Anyway, I mean no disrespect, but this is kind of a negative thread, man! It kind of upsets me as a musician to think that somebody I go to looking for help making a great record might be snickering behind my back like this.

[Jules]

I once had a session where it became clear to the artist that my studio and engineering hourly rate didn't cover me giving a flying f*** about the music or production decisions.

We struck a deal that for an extra $20 per hour I would focus more give co-production assistance (I took a tip from the Michael Cain classic spy movie the Ipcress File and clenched my fist around a sharp rusty old nail to keep myself from falling asleep)

And we got along just fine.

An extra $200 per day can sharpen ones attention..

Pimp my music business..?

WTF is this thread about anyway?

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Dean7

#11 - Being so jaded by the industry that you dislike every human being that walks through your door so much that you make smarmy top 10 lists on the internet about them because you think you're better than them and you have lost sight of why you are doing this in the first place.

(dang, that was a long sentence)

Anyway, I mean no disrespect, but this is kind of a negative thread, man! It kind of upsets me as a musician to think that somebody I go to looking for help making a great record might be snickering behind my back like this.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you have missed the entire point of this thread.

But for the record...

If I write something humorous or provoking in this or any other thread, it doesn't mean I am disrespectful or that I don't like people or whatever else you said.

It's tough to convey voice inflections or facial expressions on the internet so there's a risk that somebody like you is going to take it in the worst possible way. Which you did...

I spent my entire life making friends, connection and establishing a business which I can now live off and have been for years. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I was any of the things you posted on your thread.

So don't be so quick to judge somebody you don't even know based on one post ! You have no idea who I am or what I do.

Sorry you took it that way...

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Jules

WTF is this thread about anyway?

At this point I don't even know anymore...

It's supposed to be about all the wrong things you might do or say if you weren't more intelligent.

I know for myself, that on a daily basis I put up with a lot of bullshit and if I wasn't a professional I probably would've lost some business along the way.

So...it's about situations that come up that we deal with as engineers, producers etc...

Basically, a list of things you shouldn't do or say. Does that make sense ?

[Dean7]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

You have no idea what you're talking about and you have missed the entire point of this thread.

But for the record...

If I write something humorous or provoking in this or any other thread, it doesn't mean I am disrespectful or that I don't like people or whatever else you said.

It's tough to convey voice inflections or facial expressions on the internet so there's a risk that somebody like you is going to take it in the worst possible way. Which you did...

I spent my entire life making friends, connection and establishing a business which I can now live off and have been for years. I wouldn't have lasted a week if I was any of the things you posted on your thread.

So don't be so quick to judge somebody you don't even know based on one post ! You have no idea who I am or what I do.

Sorry you took it that way...

Fair enough. I wasn't attacking you personally or anything (I don't know you, obviously). I was just reacting to what I thought this thread was about, because it seemed 100% negative to me. But, I guess in this case two negatives don't make a positive.