about charging (clients)

[sadworld]

my studio is small time but i wonder this....

do you guys charge clients for only the time that they are there? what about the hours of homework that is done when they don't need to be there. edits and stuff, ya know? do you charge for time spent on homework? thanks...

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by sadworld
my studio is small time but i wonder this....

do you guys charge clients for only the time that they are there? what about the hours of homework that is done when they don't need to be there. edits and stuff, ya know? do you charge for time spent on homework? thanks...

"Homework"....I don't have any of that. If I'm working, then they are present and paying.

[StefanColson]

They're present for the entire mix?

[LTA]

Originally posted by sadworld
do you guys charge clients for only the time that they are there? what about the hours of homework that is done when they don't need to be there. edits and stuff, ya know? do you charge for time spent on homework? thanks...

Edits should probably be worked into the session, or done at a later session. If the DAW or tape is running, you should be on the clock. Of course, you can give breaks, but that should be to your discretion.

I don't really believe in "homework" though. It either gets done right then and there, or it doesn't happen. If a vocal is being comped, it should get edited at the end of the session as the vocalist will never get back to that same point, even with identical mic position. If you are critically listening during the takes, and taking copious notes, it will be quick and easy, since you know what portions of which takes were good. Just because its on a daw doesn't mean you don't need a pencil and paper

The rest of the "editing" would probably be worked into the mix session. Rough mixes are done concurrent to the tracking/overdub sessions, but the 'final' mixes should be separate AND billed.

If that isn't the right answer, please define "edit and stuff" more, as i don't know

[jtienhaara]

I think editing should become an industry unto itself. In this DIY era the chain should be:

1. Tracking
2. Editing
3. Mixing
4. Mastering

Too many bands record on their own and then send the tracks to a mixer. Also there are too many dumb recording "engineers". Mixing an un-edited song is a royal pain in the a**, especially if you've already committed to a fixed price before realizing how much time will be spent on editing "homework".

Charge 'em for it, or get them to do it themselves.

Cheers,

Johann

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by StefanColson
They're present for the entire mix?

Yes, always for me. They care very much about how it turns out, and usually it ends up being more of a waste of time for me to hand them a copy and do later tweeks, than having essential personnel there (producer and key members of the band) listening to it on multiple systems for immediate approval. I enjoy having the feedback too, regardless of how subjective it all really is.

When did artists (or at least their producer) stop attending their own mixes?

[jtienhaara]

When did artists (or at least their producer) stop attending their own mixes?

When did it become affordable for everyone and their parrot to record music?

[maz[music]]

I don't WANT anyone around for the edits and beginning of a mix... there's too many times that a client will get bored and start asking a lot of questions that slows things down. Which is cool if I'm charging hourly, but I usually charge by the job.

For example, I don't want an artist around asking why I'm making the acoustic guitar sound like that when I'm boosting 200-500hz to find the mud so I can then carve it out.

You know what I mean? It's the same thing with edits.

If I have a vocalist I make sure I've got what I need before I comp but I don't comp with him or her here. That doesn't seem to make much sense for the way I work.

So, regarding "charging for homework," again, I charge by the job, not the hour so it's built in.

[MASSIVE Master]

I hardly ever mix anymore - An album here and there. But when I do...

For editing and general cleanup, I *normally* try to give the artist a general idea of the time it'll take, and then attempt to do it alone or with one bandmember as guidance. Basically for the same reasons stated before - It's hard to concentrate on the tiny details when there's a room full of people goofing off / asking questions, etc.

So it's sort of like "homework," but the clock is running.

[toolskid]

Originally posted by jtienhaara
I think editing should become an industry unto itself. In this DIY era the chain should be:

1. Tracking
2. Editing
3. Mixing
4. Mastering

Editing already kind of is - I'll often get hired just to fly in and fix stuff up on a session - no tracking or mixing - just hack and slash!!

[PaRaNoId]

I either have the client there for all "work" including note-taking, editing and mixing...or if we are on a friendly basis, with trust fully intact, i just HONESTLY charge them for time I spent doing the homework (editing, rough mixing, even data backup). Just be honest and don't ever take advantage of your client.

[doorknocker]

Originally posted by sadworld
my studio is small time but i wonder this....
do you guys charge clients for only the time that they are there? what about the hours of homework that is done when they don't need to be there. edits and stuff, ya know? do you charge for time spent on homework? thanks...

I don't mind going the extra mile because in the long run it will pay off. My thinking is the better the work I put out the higher the change of new clients/work.
I once read a quote in a Guitar Player article where they asked a famous studio musician what the most important factor in doing sessions is and he said 'Time consideration'. What he meant was that you have to consider the time spent on setup, gear, experimentation, etc in regard to the time allowed/paid for your job. Limit the options/don't do too much experimetation on a big scale session and there might be the feeling that your rushing or don't really care. Spend a long time setting up, 'Let's try that small amp over there' on a tighter session and there might be the feeling that you're dragging everybody and not be up to the task.I think the same is true for engineering/mixing. Besides a certain 'standard' that you establish for yourself (in my case this means mixing on my own up to a certain point and a rough estimation of the setup time before recording) it's really up to you to get a feel for the client and plan accordingly.
I think that with today's technique the line between different tasks gets blurred. One example is the difference between mixing and mastering. A client might just expect a 'finished' CD without realizing the process and again it's up to you to make this clear up front. With experience you'll be able to plan better, so I wouldn't worry about 'homework' now but rather consider it for the next job.

Andi

[Paul David]

Hey Jtienhaa... Thanks for that!

Sadworld, If it's a label gig I give them realistic expectations for editing and mixing and do it alone in a quiet place (ie, no parrots). I bill honestly and sometimes even eat a couple hours if it's for a worthy cause. If it's a demo deal, it depends on the artist. Some will sit back and take mental notes, some will give constructive comments and the others will be asked to leave.


I bill for all studio hours, but I always round down.

[RichT]

I am a self confessed work-a-holic and I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.

If something needs doing and we're pushed for time and budget, even if the client says 'I can't afford it', I'll do it anyway in my own time. I'll try and make sure this effort is appreciated in other ways (bigger credits, etc).

It doesn't make much financial sense but it's the bigger picture (and some sort of further career) I'm looking at.

I'll also mix stuff in studio down time without the band present for a much cheaper rate, this buys me the luxury of spending days on the mix and getting the better product because I know damn well my clients have got no f**king money to spend the time I'd like to spend.

"Well, if they can't afford it then you shouldn't do the work..." I hear you say.

Round here I'd get no work if I churned out toss because the band could only afford 5 hours to mix it. I'd last five seconds, so far I've survived 3 years and chalked up some minor successful indie releases.

Am I rich? Pfff.

Am I making a living? Barely.

Fact of the matter is, if I could do this for free, I would.

If you want to charge for your time, do it. They'll either pay or they won't.

I wish people valued the results as much as I do, maybe I have my sights set too high?

[robdarling]

Guys, you are being too serious- if you do the work charge for it, unless you aren't good enough to do it as fast as it should be done, in which case you bill fewer hours to keep the client as someone who is basically paying you to learn.

What I can't believe is that this thread hasn't completely fallen to bits around this band with a parrot. Good ****in lord, what a fantastic world we live in.

Thanks jtienhaara

[TER]

Editing has become as much a part of arrangement as instrument choice...I always make sure the edits are as done as possible and approved by the artist before we sit down to mix. I usually prefer two or three hours at the head of a mix alone, and then once the track is up and sounding close to what it should I'm very interested in comment, criticisms, concerns from the sofa.

I believe you HAVE to charge for the time you spend on a client's work. Once you give it away, or are too nice, you create expectations that do not help you in the long run. If you spring for shipping once because it's a hassle to invoice someone to send a cd via fedex, next time around they assume the shipping is part of your hourly rate and they don't need to reimburse you. Same with cd-rs...I buy Mitsuis at about a buck a piece, and clients either assume that they're free or think that they cost a nickel each. They're always amazed when I want to charge for this stuff.

Don't let your clients become accustomed to you taking advantage of yourself! It becomes a real problem in the long run. Be fair, be honest, but charge for your services what you feel they are worth, and do the best work you can.

Ten years into this gig (full time studio) I'm still finding that some folks will try to get out out of me everything they can, with no regard or respect for my time and effort. It's frustrating, but you've got to demand the respect, and compensation for the work is one part of that.

-tom