Record deal dilemma--advice?

aquamixgrout · 29th March 2008, 01:38 PM

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I've got a situation, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. For the sake of discretion at this point I won't reveal names or actual numbers. I produced an album for an artist, who was signed to a large contract with a label that is using the album I produced. I had a spec contract with the artist that I would get paid producer royalites on sales if they got a deal. I took no money upfront for making the album, the artist just paid any actual expenses involved in making it (studio, musician costs, etc.).

As I've come to find out, the artist's managers (one of whom I've known personally for a long time and told me he would look out for my interests in this deal) told the label that the album cost a lot of money to make (when in reality it didn't), which included a large sum of money that was paid to me as producer's advances (which I wasn't). Apparently the goal of this lie was to get the label to pay out a large upfront advance, so they could all put some money in their pockets. None of this money was paid to me.

The deal has long been signed, and I have yet to receive any paperwork pertaining to me or my royalties. Now after numerous phone calls and emails to the manager, I have been told that the way things currently stand, the label expects to "recoup" all the producer "advances" from my royalties, even though in reality I haven't been paid a penny. So in other words, I'm in line to get screwed because of a lie someone else told to the label so they could get paid.

At this point the manager who was supposed to be "looking out for me" has told me to sit tight, and he is "figuring out" how to make sure I get paid my royalties from the first album, obviously without having to tell the label that it was lied to. But at this point I don't have much faith that anyone is actually looking out for me.

So here's my dilemma. It seems I have three choices. One is to sit tight and see what the manager comes up with to rectify the situation.

Two would be to force the issue and tell the managers they and/or the artist are responsible for paying me directly the royalties or advances the label thinks it is recouping.

Three would the "nuclear" option, which would be to hire my own attorney and air the dirty laundry, letting the label know that I was paid nothing up front and that they had been lied to by the managers. This is the last resort, as it would probably blow up the deal and hurt the artist, who to my knowledge was not aware of what was being done behind the scenes.

I take responsibility for being too trusting and not having my own attorney involved in this deal from the start, that's my mistake. But given the current situation, before I consult with an attorney what would you Gearslutters recommend I do?

redddog · 29th March 2008, 01:57 PM

You sound young. LOL.

I'm only half kidding.

Seriously. Getting screwed like this is a very common tale. Why? Because people in general, are greedy scum. Not everyone of course, but people in management need a specific set of skills. Being a greedy prick is one of them.

My suggestion. Go nuclear. If you treat his a-hole like a gentleman, you're giving him too much credit. He has shown you who he is thus playing his only card. The greedy prick card. You know what you're dealing with now. Expecting him to all of a sudden do the right thing would be tragically naive at this point. And his plan to "try and work it out" is nothig but a stall to put it off and to distance you from the table.

Don't worry about the artist. If he is compelling enough for a major to commit any substantial capital to, they will not pull the plug on him because of some stupid, common contractual BS between some 2 bit manager and the band's producer. And if this scum sucking pig goes unchecked on this one, the band will stand to loose way more than this from this guy. He'll screw them for way more when real money is involved. You'd be doing them a favor.

Get yourself a lawyer. Today. Fast.

John Willett · 29th March 2008, 01:58 PM

Not a nice situation to be in.

I think, in the first instance, I would write to the manager and artist putting the situation in writing.

As the advance was paid to the management after them saying they had already paid you - then they should pay you immediately.

Was anything put in writing at the start?

If not, be careful, as you could really get screwed.

I would go in politely, but firmly and not stir things too much at the moment.

I hope this helps.

I will watch this thread closely as I could very well be in a similar situation in the future and want to see how this pans out.

psycho_monkey · 29th March 2008, 02:03 PM

I'd give your attorney a call before you do anything.

The manager who isn't at all looking out for you is obviously a con artist.

The only way for them to resolve them without harming their artist is for them to pay you the advance you're supposed to have been paid, that they've told the label you have been paid. Effectively, they've stolen that money from you - and if they rectify things by paying you that money, then all's clear.

Any less, and they're stealing your money (since even if you accept a settlement, part of your royalties will effectively be going to them).

I'd tell them that directly. Through a lawyer would probably be best, since this manager has already proven he's a greedy sod who can't be trusted as far as he can be driven with a 4 iron.

And if they refuse to move...well it's up to you, but I'd tell the artist you're not happy about being stiffed. Is (s)he aware what the manager has done? I can't imagine they'd be very happy about it either...they may even fire the management, in which case you could persue them legally for the cash without harming the artist.

And never, ever deal with this manager again.

FireMoon · 29th March 2008, 02:14 PM

Sadly, you are not the first and you certainly won;t be the alst person to find themselves in this situation. The chances are you make it public the album will be taken elsewhere, a couple of tracks will be tinkered with, and another persons name will appear on the credits for producing/engineering. You, will be left out in cold. I've see this happen time and time again where a Producer/Engineer does all the donkey work that facilitates a band scoring a contract for them to be totally left out of the equation when the deal is done...

The lesson being simple..Get it in writing BEFORE you embark on any projects. The truth is, if you make waves and you are not already a name, you will just get a reputation as a *troublemaker* and could , seriously, adversely affect you future career.

Probably, the best way to minimise any damage is to quietly let it be known just how much of the work is down to you with the bands label and make it clear you don't wish to make waves. If your work is genuinely well above par the label will most likely stick your name on the list of people they send bands to for their first serious project.

moracspace · 29th March 2008, 02:19 PM

Pay me b4 I set up anything

psycho_monkey · 29th March 2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireMoon

Sadly, you are not the first and you certainly won;t be the alst person to find themselves in this situation. The chances are you make it public the album will be taken elsewhere, a couple of tracks will be tinkered with, and another persons name will appear on the credits for producing/engineering. You, will be left out in cold. I've see this happen time and time again where a Producer/Engineer does all the donkey work that facilitates a band scoring a contract for them to be totally left out of the equation when the deal is done...

The lesson being simple..Get it in writing BEFORE you embark on any projects. The truth is, if you make waves and you are not already a name, you will just get a reputation as a *troublemaker* and could , seriously, adversely affect you future career.

Probably, the best way to minimise any damage is to quietly let it be known just how much of the work is down to you with the bands label and make it clear you don't wish to make waves. If your work is genuinely well above par the label will most likely stick your name on the list of people they send bands to for their first serious project.

I think the point is it IS in writing, and it's not that the label doesn't want to pay for the producer, it's that the management has stolen the money.

I think it's more likely the management will get blacklisted than the producer - after all, he's technically been paid - someone's just stolen the money from him.

I think the artist, if he has any integrity - should lean on his management to do the right thing.

redddog · 29th March 2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I think the artist, if he has any integrity - should lean on his management to do the right thing.

Then there's that. He will have to have to have a sense of integrity to begin with. A well placed bug in the bands ear, from said manager, could scare them just enough to turn their backs on our friend here.

aquamixgrout · 29th March 2008, 02:55 PM

Thanks for the responses, guys.

To clarify further, the album in question is going to be released in a few weeks, so it's already a done deal in terms of the label putting it out with me as the producer on it regardless of what happens, and the label has already committed a lot of money into promoting it.

As far as being a "difficult" guy to work with, up until now I've been bending over backwards to not make waves and do whatever has been asked of me, above and beyond the production of the album. So hopefully if I had to go public it wouldn't be me looking like the bad guy for simply pointing out fraud that someone else has committed.

Supposedly the managers' attorney is currently drafting a letter of direction with the label that will outline what I am to be paid, but as of now it appears that it still includes the recoupment of the phantom advances.

The problem is I've been left completely in the dark as to the details of what's really going on, I only get little nuggets here or there, and it's only when I force the issue.

The other issue is that since promotion is just beginning to ramp up for the artist, if I go nuclear and cause a massive shakeup now it could stop any momentum dead in its tracks for the album, if the managers are getting fired or discredited in the midst of all of this.

I think I'm going to call the manager tonight and have a "heart to heart", and basically tell him that if he doesn't get this resolved for me privately, I'll have no choice but to go public. Obviously he would want to avoid this more than I would, since it would reveal to the label (and the industry) that he and the other manager had lied to them and ruin his reputation, so he would have a high incentive to find a settlement.

I haven't spoken with the artist about any of this yet, so obviously that's another option to explore as a way to get a quicker resolution.

But regardless, I think I will also call an attorney on Monday and at least get a consultation to see what my options are if I have to go public.

aquamixgrout · 29th March 2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redddog

Then there's that. He will have to have to have a sense of integrity to begin with. A well placed bug in the bands ear, from said manager, could scare them just enough to turn their backs on our friend here.

The good news for me is that the artist trusts me implicitly. I've been there for them long before anyone else believed in them and done everything for them (including introducing them to this manager who helped get them the record deal), and never tried to take advantage or treat unfairly in any way, and they know that. So at least I've got that going for me.

Dyer Maker · 30th March 2008, 03:59 AM

Welcome to the music business

Things like this happen all the time. My advice would be to lawyer up as quick as possible. I am not sure if you had your deal in writing with the band, but even then you are in a tough position.

If the manger guy is getting you set up to be paid on the back end after recoupment, I would bet very very very good money that you will never see a penny.

Are you sure you are credited as the producer on the album? Unless you have seen the graphics, the manager may have himself credited as the producer. It would not be the first time.

I would try to find a way to audit the contract the band signed with the label and see if a producer fee has been itemized. If it has been its your money and you need to get it. You could have a criminal complaint against the manager.

edcampos · 30th March 2008, 07:37 AM

Go see a lawyer. One who works in the music business. Explain to him everything that happened and he will help you take care of it. Good luck,

Ed

allmedia · 23rd April 2008, 02:46 AM

Your ace in the hole is that, as a producer of the record, you are one of the "authors" of the sound recording, and as such, are one of the (equal) copyright owners of the recording, assuming that you haven't signed a producer agreement (which almost always contain a work for hire clause).

Good luck.

inthere · 23rd April 2008, 03:48 AM

The deal has been signed and the record is about to go out. Now the thing is, if you wouldn't have gone spec in the beginning and said "pay me 1st", they would have gotten someone else.

I say let the album go out and sit tight. There are a few things that can happen and the possibilities are endless if the album is a success.

1. You name gets out there as a producer. You can go anywhere you want afterwards.
2. If you co wrote the album you stand to make a crapload in songwiting/publishing money.
3. If the album is a success, no major is going to want news of an unpaid producer to get out, and also, because you produced a hit album, they'll want to stay on your good side for future work.
4. Any decent music attorney would love to charge in with barrels blazing at a major that hasn't paid the producer on a project.

If you pitch a bitch now,

1. Label loses trust and confidence in the management and the project. Maybe it doesn't even get released. Majors avoid crooked management like the plague, and not only that, but they also avoid everyone involved with them-and that includes you.
2. You track record ends before it begins, and not only that, the label thinks you're a troublemaker, even though it was you that got screwed. They'd prefer to just sweep everything under the rug and move on.

Digibear · 23rd April 2008, 03:50 AM

From experience:

1) Quickly bring the artist up to speed on the shenanegans. Make sure they are on your side. Keep them close to your vest. They are, in the end, the only one who matters - to you, to the label, to the management.

2) Consult your lawyer immediately.

3) Speak to the label directly. They ought to have gotten a copy of your contract with the artist as part of their due diligence when signing the artist. They should know from you what you have been paid and what you are owed. Your lawyer should have executed a letter of direction so that the label would pay you directly, or the artist's lawyer should have done so if that was in your contract with the artist. Further, most producer deals have their points recoupable to the artist (they are paying you, afterall) not to the producer.

I don't see that you need to go nuclear. You don't want to hurt your artist. However, this is only about you getting paid (and the scum bucket manager). None of this should hurt the artist. If you're lucky you can get the manager fired and retain artist as a client.

Good luck with the situation and with the release.

Sigma · 23rd April 2008, 03:51 AM

put an injuction in and hold up release of record

you'll get paid really quickly

la grange · 23rd April 2008, 04:37 AM

I think geting lawyers involved, at this point in time might actualy slow the paying process down a bit. You are bringing water to there mill and the label will have a stronger back than yours.
Obviously the manager is the part you have to by pass from now on. He might have connection but is a gangrene that we come accross to often in the industry. Get him out of your picture, he has nothing to do with this situation anymore. You gave him anough time and occasion to show his good faith.
About the recoup, you should get paid fully the moment the CD is released. A recoup is towards production, publication, promotion fees. It cannot be a recoup if it hasn't been paid. Royalties come on top, your either 3 or 5 %.
As for the down payement, ask to see the invoice or receipt that you might have provided.

The same situation has hapened to me but wecame to an agreement that I would get 50% of the sales from day 1 until all my bills got paid which they have by now. The label got the other 50% to recoup there promotion expenses. In some ways I got lucky that the label wanted to work with e for the follow up of this artist. But I strongly feel that if I had gotten the law firms involved, I would still be waiting for my money...

They too know that minds and parachute are alike, only work when it's open. lawyers tend to free fall. Generaly speaking of course...

best of luck

Oli

slaves666 · 23rd April 2008, 04:42 AM

I feel for you.....

Since the music biz. in the US is so small and there is less and less money to go around, I suggest you be discreet in dealing with the "problem".

I'd suggest that you try and settle "out of court". Decide on a bottom line, and stick with it. At this point, maybe try to get more points on the record, say 4%-4.5%, since you already did the record for free. If the record is a hit, you'll make more than 10-20k or whatever you expect in cash for your work.

turnstile · 23rd April 2008, 05:06 AM

As they say no favor goes unpunished.

I had a close friend that was producing a marqee artist about 2 years ago. A close friend of the manager was a producer as well and had quite a bit of success in the hip hop world and was dying to get into the pop world. Anyhow, he went to my friend and said that he'd do anything to work on the record. Considering the guy had been doing quite a bit of pre-production with said artist and my friend is just so nice, he offer him a spot to co-produce.

What happened...they did the record and on the credits it read..."Produced by: Jerk, co-produced by: my friend." On top of that the label/management owed him quite a bit of money that was unpaid and the record was weeks away from release.

He spoke to the artist who in turned spoke directly with the management and payment was recieved within the week.

The only difference here is that the artist your dealing with is a debut artist and this artist was well onto his/her 4th record. So... I'd speak with the artist, as they know how much work you've put in. I'd just hope the band has some scruples.

paultools · 23rd April 2008, 05:28 AM

It's not so easy to get an injunction... there are bonds and other complications that have to be dealt with....BUT the is one thing that will get the label's attention QUICKLY: Copyright infringement. It could be argued that you are a joint owner of the sound recording, and have never released your permission to use you work. A letter from your attorney to the label legal affairs dept might go a long way.
This strategy has worked for me as an engineer. YMMV!
Make 'em pay! Best of luck!

chrisso · 23rd April 2008, 06:35 AM

I agree with the two most popular suggestions so far.
1) seek legal advice from a lawyer expert in this area.
2) bring the artist up to speed, in writing if necessary.

In the end, you have to look after number one.

redvelvetstudios · 23rd April 2008, 06:52 AM

Call Evan Cohen at Cohen & Cohen in Los Angeles. He is specialist in these types of cases, Entertainment & Copyrights.

He'll usually do a free consultation. He is a litigator, so he's the guy they'll see in court - he's not a paper pushing, paper tiger. Reasonable rates.

Usually a couple letters from him and you'll see movement and/or money. He's done great work for me over the last 15yrs - both protecting my rights, and protecting me from dumb asses.

Los Angeles
Evan S. Cohen - a Los Angeles, California (CA) Entertainment Lawyer
(323) 938-5000

Get Paid. Move on. Good Luck.

-rvs

Steffmo · 23rd April 2008, 08:08 AM

Anyone who is any good ends up here at least once......congratulations.

The only real juice you have here is the ability to queer the deal. Use it wisely.

You should have had an attorny on this yesterday. I would be rather quiet until the record is out, because in todays climate they will pull it if they feel this kind of stuff going on. The best thing for you is for the label to feel like they are making headway.

Last time this happened to me......the artists attorney CHALLENGED me to come up with a sgned contract with the band.

When I faxed it to him they paid me 40K. Then the label head...who really wanted to do the record, redid every thing...........and they dropped the band.

I always felt bad because it was a great band...we did great stuff and if the idiot had stayed out of it it would have flown.

But the fact that I was THE ONLY person who got paid was excellent payback.

By the way...make a BIG NOTE.

Its ALWAYS the manager. Say that 100 times.........

A4722 · 23rd April 2008, 08:33 AM

Are you starving while this plot is unfolding ?

If so, tactfully mention it to the artist/friend. It might get some wheels turning in his head as to why.

inthere · 23rd April 2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffmo

Anyone who is any good ends up here at least once......congratulations.

The only real juice you have here is the ability to queer the deal. Use it wisely.

You should have had an attorny on this yesterday. I would be rather quiet until the record is out, because in todays climate they will pull it if they feel this kind of stuff going on. The best thing for you is for the label to feel like they are making headway.

Last time this happened to me......the artists attorney CHALLENGED me to come up with a sgned contract with the band.

When I faxed it to him they paid me 40K. Then the label head...who really wanted to do the record, redid every thing...........and they dropped the band.

I always felt bad because it was a great band...we did great stuff and if the idiot had stayed out of it it would have flown.

But the fact that I was THE ONLY person who got paid was excellent payback.

By the way...make a BIG NOTE.

Its ALWAYS the manager. Say that 100 times.........

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself if you want the record to come out or do you want money now? If you let the record out you can still get paid and you'll also have the benefit of exposure. If you want to get paid now you can do that, but you run the risk of just getting a one time fee and nobody knows you after they pull the record.

aquamixgrout · 23rd April 2008, 02:18 PM

Thanks for all the good advice, everyone. Regardless of what happens, it's at least comforting to know that I'm not the only one this kind of thing has happened to. That said...

So here's the latest. The album is out. It's in stores, promotions are being ramped up (radio, TV, press, touring). Initial reviews and press in general have been good, and my name has been included in most of the press mentioning me as the producer. So that's good.

I spoke with the managers, and they asked me to be patient, as they said they are "working out" a back door deal to get me my royalties paid from them directly, since they were the ones who got most of the upfront money that should have been paid to me to begin with. But obviously my patience with them to make things right has pretty much run out.

And if that wasn't enough, there appears to be another wrinkle. The label and management had decided that they wanted the album to be remixed by a top level mixer instead of using my mixes. That was fine by me, since I figured that extra cost was going to be borne by the artist, the label or some combination thereof. Well, in the latest conversation with management as far as I was able to determine, somehow the cost of the mixer has been put onto my tab! So as of now between the phantom advances the label thinks I was paid and the cost of the remixing, apparently I owe the label over $200k out of my royalties, despite never having been paid a penny.

As of now I haven't spoken with the artist yet, but that would probably be the next step. I'm also going to consult with an attorney this week, and see what needs to happen. The silver lining (if there is one) is that since the album is out, my name is getting out there as well as the artist's, and if the album doesn't do well it's not going to matter how much I owe the label anyway. And if the album does do well, then obviously I won't have any trouble finding an attorney to take the case and do what needs to be done.

Thanks again for all the good insights. I'll keep you guys posted as the saga continues...

ALL*MYTEE · 23rd April 2008, 04:37 PM

You are being strung along. And they'll do it as long as they can.

Game respects game--that's it.

I'd have my lawyer write a short, curt letter to the managers telling them that you know the details of the label deal and have no problem approaching the label with this information. Make sure you tell them that under no conditions will you allow the remixing to cut into your royalties. Give them a short deadline to get something in writing--with your lawyer, not you. This is called Hollywood accounting and it's screwed many an unwitting screenwriter and musician.

I wouldn't mess with the artist, they hired the managers to act on their behalf--so deal with them. The more people are involved, the easier it is for management to shift blame or say they didn't know. Whoever cuts the checks is who you want to talk with.

Most likely the artists will tell you whatever and not deal with it. If they wanted to deal with it, they would have taken care of you already. The album is out and possession in 9/10 of the law. It's going to be an uphill battle, but if you strike swiftly and with more resolve than you've been employing, you may get your money.

Don't play around. No one else is--is management or the label missing mortgage payments? Going without insurance? I don't think so.

ps: Make sure your lawyer is a ringer--maybe even an a##hole.

Best of luck.

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29th March 2008, 01:38 PM	#1
aquamixgrout Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10	Record deal dilemma--advice? Long time lurker, first time poster here. I've got a situation, and I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. For the sake of discretion at this point I won't reveal names or actual numbers. I produced an album for an artist, who was signed to a large contract with a label that is using the album I produced. I had a spec contract with the artist that I would get paid producer royalites on sales if they got a deal. I took no money upfront for making the album, the artist just paid any actual expenses involved in making it (studio, musician costs, etc.). As I've come to find out, the artist's managers (one of whom I've known personally for a long time and told me he would look out for my interests in this deal) told the label that the album cost a lot of money to make (when in reality it didn't), which included a large sum of money that was paid to me as producer's advances (which I wasn't). Apparently the goal of this lie was to get the label to pay out a large upfront advance, so they could all put some money in their pockets. None of this money was paid to me. The deal has long been signed, and I have yet to receive any paperwork pertaining to me or my royalties. Now after numerous phone calls and emails to the manager, I have been told that the way things currently stand, the label expects to "recoup" all the producer "advances" from my royalties, even though in reality I haven't been paid a penny. So in other words, I'm in line to get screwed because of a lie someone else told to the label so they could get paid. At this point the manager who was supposed to be "looking out for me" has told me to sit tight, and he is "figuring out" how to make sure I get paid my royalties from the first album, obviously without having to tell the label that it was lied to. But at this point I don't have much faith that anyone is actually looking out for me. So here's my dilemma. It seems I have three choices. One is to sit tight and see what the manager comes up with to rectify the situation. Two would be to force the issue and tell the managers they and/or the artist are responsible for paying me directly the royalties or advances the label thinks it is recouping. Three would the "nuclear" option, which would be to hire my own attorney and air the dirty laundry, letting the label know that I was paid nothing up front and that they had been lied to by the managers. This is the last resort, as it would probably blow up the deal and hurt the artist, who to my knowledge was not aware of what was being done behind the scenes. I take responsibility for being too trusting and not having my own attorney involved in this deal from the start, that's my mistake. But given the current situation, before I consult with an attorney what would you Gearslutters recommend I do?

29th March 2008, 01:58 PM	#3
John Willett Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Oxfordshire, UK Posts: 1,052	Not a nice situation to be in. I think, in the first instance, I would write to the manager and artist putting the situation in writing. As the advance was paid to the management after them saying they had already paid you - then they should pay you immediately. Was anything put in writing at the start? If not, be careful, as you could really get screwed. I would go in politely, but firmly and not stir things too much at the moment. I hope this helps. I will watch this thread closely as I could very well be in a similar situation in the future and want to see how this pans out. __________________ John President - Fédération Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons (and lots more - please look at my Profile)

29th March 2008, 02:14 PM	#5
FireMoon Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Coventry Posts: 221	Sadly, you are not the first and you certainly won;t be the alst person to find themselves in this situation. The chances are you make it public the album will be taken elsewhere, a couple of tracks will be tinkered with, and another persons name will appear on the credits for producing/engineering. You, will be left out in cold. I've see this happen time and time again where a Producer/Engineer does all the donkey work that facilitates a band scoring a contract for them to be totally left out of the equation when the deal is done... The lesson being simple..Get it in writing BEFORE you embark on any projects. The truth is, if you make waves and you are not already a name, you will just get a reputation as a troublemaker and could , seriously, adversely affect you future career. Probably, the best way to minimise any damage is to quietly let it be known just how much of the work is down to you with the bands label and make it clear you don't wish to make waves. If your work is genuinely well above par the label will most likely stick your name on the list of people they send bands to for their first serious project. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/tubilahdog

29th March 2008, 02:19 PM	#6
moracspace Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: On the 2 buss Posts: 1,575	Pay me b4 I set up anything __________________ SHAKE AND BAKE That bassist couldnt be in the pocket if he was lint. (Jan 2007) Ray Gagliardino In daBag http://www.myspace.com/3sixteenband http://www.myspace.com/pick13music http://www.myspace.com/lesin http://www.myspace.com/withoutlogicband

29th March 2008, 01:57 PM	#2
redddog Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,378	You sound young. LOL. I'm only half kidding. Seriously. Getting screwed like this is a very common tale. Why? Because people in general, are greedy scum. Not everyone of course, but people in management need a specific set of skills. Being a greedy prick is one of them. My suggestion. Go nuclear. If you treat his a-hole like a gentleman, you're giving him too much credit. He has shown you who he is thus playing his only card. The greedy prick card. You know what you're dealing with now. Expecting him to all of a sudden do the right thing would be tragically naive at this point. And his plan to "try and work it out" is nothig but a stall to put it off and to distance you from the table. Don't worry about the artist. If he is compelling enough for a major to commit any substantial capital to, they will not pull the plug on him because of some stupid, common contractual BS between some 2 bit manager and the band's producer. And if this scum sucking pig goes unchecked on this one, the band will stand to loose way more than this from this guy. He'll screw them for way more when real money is involved. You'd be doing them a favor. Get yourself a lawyer. Today. Fast.

29th March 2008, 02:03 PM	#4
psycho_monkey Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: London Posts: 2,692	I'd give your attorney a call before you do anything. The manager who isn't at all looking out for you is obviously a con artist. The only way for them to resolve them without harming their artist is for them to pay you the advance you're supposed to have been paid, that they've told the label you have been paid. Effectively, they've stolen that money from you - and if they rectify things by paying you that money, then all's clear. Any less, and they're stealing your money (since even if you accept a settlement, part of your royalties will effectively be going to them). I'd tell them that directly. Through a lawyer would probably be best, since this manager has already proven he's a greedy sod who can't be trusted as far as he can be driven with a 4 iron. And if they refuse to move...well it's up to you, but I'd tell the artist you're not happy about being stiffed. Is (s)he aware what the manager has done? I can't imagine they'd be very happy about it either...they may even fire the management, in which case you could persue them legally for the cash without harming the artist. And never, ever deal with this manager again.

29th March 2008, 02:55 PM	#9
aquamixgrout Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10	Thanks for the responses, guys. To clarify further, the album in question is going to be released in a few weeks, so it's already a done deal in terms of the label putting it out with me as the producer on it regardless of what happens, and the label has already committed a lot of money into promoting it. As far as being a "difficult" guy to work with, up until now I've been bending over backwards to not make waves and do whatever has been asked of me, above and beyond the production of the album. So hopefully if I had to go public it wouldn't be me looking like the bad guy for simply pointing out fraud that someone else has committed. Supposedly the managers' attorney is currently drafting a letter of direction with the label that will outline what I am to be paid, but as of now it appears that it still includes the recoupment of the phantom advances. The problem is I've been left completely in the dark as to the details of what's really going on, I only get little nuggets here or there, and it's only when I force the issue. The other issue is that since promotion is just beginning to ramp up for the artist, if I go nuclear and cause a massive shakeup now it could stop any momentum dead in its tracks for the album, if the managers are getting fired or discredited in the midst of all of this. I think I'm going to call the manager tonight and have a "heart to heart", and basically tell him that if he doesn't get this resolved for me privately, I'll have no choice but to go public. Obviously he would want to avoid this more than I would, since it would reveal to the label (and the industry) that he and the other manager had lied to them and ruin his reputation, so he would have a high incentive to find a settlement. I haven't spoken with the artist about any of this yet, so obviously that's another option to explore as a way to get a quicker resolution. But regardless, I think I will also call an attorney on Monday and at least get a consultation to see what my options are if I have to go public.

30th March 2008, 03:59 AM	#11
Dyer Maker Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Malibu, CA Posts: 79	Welcome to the music business Things like this happen all the time. My advice would be to lawyer up as quick as possible. I am not sure if you had your deal in writing with the band, but even then you are in a tough position. If the manger guy is getting you set up to be paid on the back end after recoupment, I would bet very very very good money that you will never see a penny. Are you sure you are credited as the producer on the album? Unless you have seen the graphics, the manager may have himself credited as the producer. It would not be the first time. I would try to find a way to audit the contract the band signed with the label and see if a producer fee has been itemized. If it has been its your money and you need to get it. You could have a criminal complaint against the manager.

30th March 2008, 07:37 AM	#12
edcampos Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Miami, FL/Boston, MA Posts: 590	Go see a lawyer. One who works in the music business. Explain to him everything that happened and he will help you take care of it. Good luck, Ed

23rd April 2008, 02:46 AM	#13
allmedia Gear interested Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1	Record deal dilemma--advice? Your ace in the hole is that, as a producer of the record, you are one of the "authors" of the sound recording, and as such, are one of the (equal) copyright owners of the recording, assuming that you haven't signed a producer agreement (which almost always contain a work for hire clause). Good luck.

23rd April 2008, 03:48 AM	#14
inthere Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Manchester, England Posts: 250	The deal has been signed and the record is about to go out. Now the thing is, if you wouldn't have gone spec in the beginning and said "pay me 1st", they would have gotten someone else. I say let the album go out and sit tight. There are a few things that can happen and the possibilities are endless if the album is a success. 1. You name gets out there as a producer. You can go anywhere you want afterwards. 2. If you co wrote the album you stand to make a crapload in songwiting/publishing money. 3. If the album is a success, no major is going to want news of an unpaid producer to get out, and also, because you produced a hit album, they'll want to stay on your good side for future work. 4. Any decent music attorney would love to charge in with barrels blazing at a major that hasn't paid the producer on a project. If you pitch a bitch now, 1. Label loses trust and confidence in the management and the project. Maybe it doesn't even get released. Majors avoid crooked management like the plague, and not only that, but they also avoid everyone involved with them-and that includes you. 2. You track record ends before it begins, and not only that, the label thinks you're a troublemaker, even though it was you that got screwed. They'd prefer to just sweep everything under the rug and move on. __________________ Generations Of House Sample DVD-1100 samples with Live strings, Live Horns, drums, vocals, synths http://www.loopmasters.com/samplesho...uctCode=LMAS04

23rd April 2008, 03:50 AM	#15
Digibear Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Boston MA Posts: 118	From experience: 1) Quickly bring the artist up to speed on the shenanegans. Make sure they are on your side. Keep them close to your vest. They are, in the end, the only one who matters - to you, to the label, to the management. 2) Consult your lawyer immediately. 3) Speak to the label directly. They ought to have gotten a copy of your contract with the artist as part of their due diligence when signing the artist. They should know from you what you have been paid and what you are owed. Your lawyer should have executed a letter of direction so that the label would pay you directly, or the artist's lawyer should have done so if that was in your contract with the artist. Further, most producer deals have their points recoupable to the artist (they are paying you, afterall) not to the producer. I don't see that you need to go nuclear. You don't want to hurt your artist. However, this is only about you getting paid (and the scum bucket manager). None of this should hurt the artist. If you're lucky you can get the manager fired and retain artist as a client. Good luck with the situation and with the release. __________________ Best, --- Jordan Tishler Digital Bear Entertainment Music Producer/Engineer (617) 522 4550 Artist Development, Music Production and Publishing -------------------------------------------------------------- http://digitalbear.com/ Music Production site http://dbemusic.com/ Music Publishing info for songwriters http://songsforsync.com/ Music Resources for Supervisors

23rd April 2008, 03:51 AM	#16
Sigma Lives for gear Join Date: May 2006 Location: phallicdelphia Posts: 2,586	put an injuction in and hold up release of record you'll get paid really quickly __________________ I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem - the most important of all human problems"....alberta weintsein "The notes I handle no better than many pianists. But the pauses between the notes, ah, that is where the art resides." Artur Schnabel http://www.myspace.com/miketarsia http://miketarsia.com

23rd April 2008, 04:37 AM	#17
la grange Gear Head Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: canada Posts: 43	I think geting lawyers involved, at this point in time might actualy slow the paying process down a bit. You are bringing water to there mill and the label will have a stronger back than yours. Obviously the manager is the part you have to by pass from now on. He might have connection but is a gangrene that we come accross to often in the industry. Get him out of your picture, he has nothing to do with this situation anymore. You gave him anough time and occasion to show his good faith. About the recoup, you should get paid fully the moment the CD is released. A recoup is towards production, publication, promotion fees. It cannot be a recoup if it hasn't been paid. Royalties come on top, your either 3 or 5 %. As for the down payement, ask to see the invoice or receipt that you might have provided. The same situation has hapened to me but wecame to an agreement that I would get 50% of the sales from day 1 until all my bills got paid which they have by now. The label got the other 50% to recoup there promotion expenses. In some ways I got lucky that the label wanted to work with e for the follow up of this artist. But I strongly feel that if I had gotten the law firms involved, I would still be waiting for my money... They too know that minds and parachute are alike, only work when it's open. lawyers tend to free fall. Generaly speaking of course... best of luck Oli

23rd April 2008, 04:42 AM	#18
slaves666 Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,445	I feel for you..... Since the music biz. in the US is so small and there is less and less money to go around, I suggest you be discreet in dealing with the "problem". I'd suggest that you try and settle "out of court". Decide on a bottom line, and stick with it. At this point, maybe try to get more points on the record, say 4%-4.5%, since you already did the record for free. If the record is a hit, you'll make more than 10-20k or whatever you expect in cash for your work. __________________ www.upliftproductions.com www.myspace.com/themonarchymusic

23rd April 2008, 05:06 AM	#19
turnstile Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Laurel Canyon Posts: 262	As they say no favor goes unpunished. I had a close friend that was producing a marqee artist about 2 years ago. A close friend of the manager was a producer as well and had quite a bit of success in the hip hop world and was dying to get into the pop world. Anyhow, he went to my friend and said that he'd do anything to work on the record. Considering the guy had been doing quite a bit of pre-production with said artist and my friend is just so nice, he offer him a spot to co-produce. What happened...they did the record and on the credits it read..."Produced by: Jerk, co-produced by: my friend." On top of that the label/management owed him quite a bit of money that was unpaid and the record was weeks away from release. He spoke to the artist who in turned spoke directly with the management and payment was recieved within the week. The only difference here is that the artist your dealing with is a debut artist and this artist was well onto his/her 4th record. So... I'd speak with the artist, as they know how much work you've put in. I'd just hope the band has some scruples.

23rd April 2008, 05:28 AM	#20
paultools Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 1,600	It's not so easy to get an injunction... there are bonds and other complications that have to be dealt with....BUT the is one thing that will get the label's attention QUICKLY: Copyright infringement. It could be argued that you are a joint owner of the sound recording, and have never released your permission to use you work. A letter from your attorney to the label legal affairs dept might go a long way. This strategy has worked for me as an engineer. YMMV! Make 'em pay! Best of luck! __________________ We are creating enemies faster than we can kill them.

23rd April 2008, 06:35 AM	#21
chrisso Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oz Posts: 3,168	I agree with the two most popular suggestions so far. 1) seek legal advice from a lawyer expert in this area. 2) bring the artist up to speed, in writing if necessary. In the end, you have to look after number one. __________________ Chris Whitten

23rd April 2008, 06:52 AM	#22
redvelvetstudios Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: silverlake, ca Posts: 110	Call Evan Cohen at Cohen & Cohen in Los Angeles. He is specialist in these types of cases, Entertainment & Copyrights. He'll usually do a free consultation. He is a litigator, so he's the guy they'll see in court - he's not a paper pushing, paper tiger. Reasonable rates. Usually a couple letters from him and you'll see movement and/or money. He's done great work for me over the last 15yrs - both protecting my rights, and protecting me from dumb asses. Los Angeles Evan S. Cohen - a Los Angeles, California (CA) Entertainment Lawyer (323) 938-5000 Get Paid. Move on. Good Luck. -rvs __________________ music i like: http://www.myspace.com/jameswilsey http://www.myspace.com/altctrlsleep be well, play nice, rock on...

23rd April 2008, 08:08 AM	#23
Steffmo Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: West Haven, CT Posts: 1,163	Anyone who is any good ends up here at least once......congratulations. The only real juice you have here is the ability to queer the deal. Use it wisely. You should have had an attorny on this yesterday. I would be rather quiet until the record is out, because in todays climate they will pull it if they feel this kind of stuff going on. The best thing for you is for the label to feel like they are making headway. Last time this happened to me......the artists attorney CHALLENGED me to come up with a sgned contract with the band. When I faxed it to him they paid me 40K. Then the label head...who really wanted to do the record, redid every thing...........and they dropped the band. I always felt bad because it was a great band...we did great stuff and if the idiot had stayed out of it it would have flown. But the fact that I was THE ONLY person who got paid was excellent payback. By the way...make a BIG NOTE. Its ALWAYS the manager. Say that 100 times.........

23rd April 2008, 08:33 AM	#24
A4722 Gear Head Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Buena Park, CA Posts: 72	Survival Are you starving while this plot is unfolding ? If so, tactfully mention it to the artist/friend. It might get some wheels turning in his head as to why. __________________ A4722

23rd April 2008, 02:18 PM	#26
aquamixgrout Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10	Thanks for all the good advice, everyone. Regardless of what happens, it's at least comforting to know that I'm not the only one this kind of thing has happened to. That said... So here's the latest. The album is out. It's in stores, promotions are being ramped up (radio, TV, press, touring). Initial reviews and press in general have been good, and my name has been included in most of the press mentioning me as the producer. So that's good. I spoke with the managers, and they asked me to be patient, as they said they are "working out" a back door deal to get me my royalties paid from them directly, since they were the ones who got most of the upfront money that should have been paid to me to begin with. But obviously my patience with them to make things right has pretty much run out. And if that wasn't enough, there appears to be another wrinkle. The label and management had decided that they wanted the album to be remixed by a top level mixer instead of using my mixes. That was fine by me, since I figured that extra cost was going to be borne by the artist, the label or some combination thereof. Well, in the latest conversation with management as far as I was able to determine, somehow the cost of the mixer has been put onto my tab! So as of now between the phantom advances the label thinks I was paid and the cost of the remixing, apparently I owe the label over $200k out of my royalties, despite never having been paid a penny. As of now I haven't spoken with the artist yet, but that would probably be the next step. I'm also going to consult with an attorney this week, and see what needs to happen. The silver lining (if there is one) is that since the album is out, my name is getting out there as well as the artist's, and if the album doesn't do well it's not going to matter how much I owe the label anyway. And if the album does do well, then obviously I won't have any trouble finding an attorney to take the case and do what needs to be done. Thanks again for all the good insights. I'll keep you guys posted as the saga continues...