vintage mci multi-track, and vintage ('70s) console with api pres

[vitreouswindows]

I'm pondering doing the tape thing. I'm not terribly mechanical and computers, well, bother me - I don't enjoy using them. Any liabilities going to the pro analog '70s thing? What would a good rig cost - 16 or 24 track, MCI multi-track and similar quality board (like an Auditronics with API pres). Any experience with going this route? The system would be for recording voice(s), acoustic guitar, acoustic piano, acoustic drums, electric guitar, electric bass, sundry percussion, perhaps the odd keyboard. Thanks in advance

[allencollins]

I have an analog machine. I love it but I never really use it. No clients want to pay for tape. I have 2 'community' reels but they still don't want to use it

But now is the time to buy I think the prices are right. Just look hard for clean & low hrs. JH24 or MTR90 seems to be the best bang for the buck these days but if you score an A80 or 827 youd be very happy. Super clean JH24 or MTR 90' go for around 4k. Minty Studers about double that from a reputable dealer (If there is such a thing). When I was looking it seemed the studers I looked at were better maintained. But you get what you pay for$$$

[getreel]

Owning an old tape machine, especially an MCI, will require maintenance and repairs. If you know a good tech, you might be alright if you don't mind paying for service from time to time. Modern digital has spoiled us all and we have home studios because it's more cost effective than ever, but back when these old analog beasts were seeing more commercial use, studios employed or hired out techs to keep them up. They weren't designed to be set it and forget it. You have to clean, demag, align the transport tensions and audio. There are at least 6 adjustments per track when calibrating the audio electronics alone. I owned an MCI JH16 for several years and it was fantastic sounding but I had to do a lot of tweaking myself to keep it going. I had a phone support subscription with Steve Sadler(excellent resource if you get an MCI) and he helped me do most of the work myself over the phone. I still had to send a few things to him, but I saved money learning a lot of it myself. If you have the time and don't mind learning, it can be a lot of fun to own one.

[vernier]

That hasn't been the case with me. My 60's multi-track hasn't needed a thing since I got it 10 or 12 years ago ...zero down time. No digital rig can do that.

[RedWallStudio]

Originally Posted by vernier

That hasn't been the case with me. My 60's multi-track hasn't needed a thing since I got it 10 or 12 years ago ...zero down time. No digital rig can do that.

I think you are really lucky with that batting average. In most cases, a tape machine is going to require maintenance... so its best to have that plan in place.

Yeah, bands I record just are not good enough for tape, so I generally record them on PT. But I record all my band's songs on tape.... the sonic difference is staggering, especially when you listen to tape after working in PT for a week.

If it is your first machine, I would recommend an MCI over an Otari or Studer. The MCI's where built in the U.S. with nearly all off-the-shelf type parts that are still available. They are also great workhorses, simple to operate, sound great, and most techs worth their salt have usually worked on them. The Remotes can be a little finicky, but other than that.. they are good solid machines.

[vernier]

There's another factor to this though ..I'm just a musician with a recorder, but the recorder I'm using was built to run full time around the clock at the most popular studio at a time when studios turned away business ..so, in the case of some solo artist wanting a recorder, I say "go for it". But if its a commercial studio, there are other considerations.

[ripper]

I think what "red said" is pretty on it. If you can find a MCI JH 16/24 in good cond., you'll be laughing. they've got more trannies than the JH24 and IMHO are a better, punchier sounding machine.

I had my tech go through mine when i bought it over 5 years ago and have had ZERO downtime on that machine. I've done a few minor transport tweaks... nothing a tech or phone support at Blevins in nashville couldn't walk you through.

one caveat: i track "basics" to tape then dump to Pro Tools for overdubs, editing and mixing so i'm not running the machine 24/7. also, i'm not having to buy lots of tape as this machine has fantastic erasure and i can use a real of tape quite a few times.thumbsup

tape is a beautiful thing!

i also mix to an ampex atr 102 (best tape machine ever!) and dump from there back into tools thru a cranesong hedd.

believe it or not, if i had to do without one of the tape processing stages, i'd probably forego the 24 track before i'd give up the half inch. the 24 track does take more time in a session (alignment, though it's amazingly stable, patching everything, and not being able to dump into tools in real time as i have the atr and tools in series and there's a time differential between record and reproduce heads).

but the half inch is fast to align and the dump into tools is realtime. and even listen back to the digital dump, what the machine imparts in way of glue, smoothness and de-essing is wonderful!

or hey, you can always just buy an emulation plug in instead!dfegad



good luck... btw/ my kids insisted on putting all the smilies on. it's fun to be four!

[daniel c]

Originally Posted by vernier

the recorder I'm using was built to run full time around the clock at the most popular studio at a time when studios turned away business

Sorry to drift off topic, but can you tell us a bit more about your tape machine?

[dbbubba]

I have been screwing around with this stuff since 1975, so I have used analog of all types and have been in the DAW world since 1992.

The maintenance on analog is really not that different than with digital except the reasons for maintenance are different.
Analog equipment is mechanical by nature and obviously computers are digital devices.
Each require attention in their own way.

I can't say that a digital studio is any easier to keep in top operational condition than an analog studio.

The earlier poster who said that full-time studios kept a tech employed and on-call full time is not correct really.
I owned or was associated many analog rooms that did a tremendous amount of work and only required a tech when something major broke down.
This was a rarity that a tech was needed and most people knew how to do their own calibration and day to day maintenance. It came with the territory.
Studios that had several rooms running and did huge, high profile record label work in NYC or Hollywood/LA might have had a full time tech.
The bulk of the studios in the analog days did their own maintenance.
I did!

These machines were professional devices designed to run 24/7 if required.
Computers and a lot of the current equipment is closer to consumer level equipment.
For one thing... analog gear didn't become obsolete as quickly as computer equipment!

Analog consoles and tape machines are mechanical devices and just like your spinning hard drive... they wear out in time.

For me the biggest advantage to digital is the elimination of switches since all of the functions of an analog device are software in a DAW.

So... analog is possible these days and you can find a lot of gear that is serviceable.
Some holds up better over time and some was used less and is in better condition.
Some analog gear has been used less and might have been in storage or left un-powered. That alone can cause problems. A computer rig would be no different.

Cost?

My 1988 SONY/MCI JH24 which is pristine cost me $2K.
My 1978 MCI JH-538C console cost me $2K, but it has required a lot of work.
My JH-110s were close to free and I have had to go over them... no big thing.
My Ampex AG-440C-4 runs like new.
I recently sold a Studer A-810 that I re-built and it ran 100%.

This is all relatively easy stuff to do (for me) and I'm not a real tech.
It is time consuming.

I am involved with lot's of audio, so I accumulate lots of cabling and other stuff.
The cabling and interface equipment might have cost more than the gear if bought new.

I just know how to find gear and how to get it cheap.
An art in itself!thumbsup

[vernier]

Sorry to drift off topic, but can you tell us a bit more about your tape machine?

Stephens 811-C eight track with 3M transport, circa 1968.

Some highlights are ..extremely quiet and low distortion electronics, compact, and rugged.

[Mr. Tom]

Hey!


Do Get It....!!

Sounds will be amazing outta that combo...
Iam loving my MCI JH24...
But I would recommend getting a 16 track headstack ASAP!
And do not forget to run it at 15 IPS... then you get about 30 minutes per tape...
I can not believe that clients would bitch about that tape cost...not if they are serious!
Producers & engineers need to start pushing that format back on people!

Best regards,

Tom H.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by vernier

Stephens 811-C eight track with 3M transport, circa 1968.

Some highlights are ..extremely quiet and low distortion electronics, compact, and rugged.

i love the way those old pre-70's decks flop out the very bottom of the kick. there's too much damn low end whoomp on digital rigs, even after things pass thru 4 or 5 trafo's. old tape clears that stuff up so nicely.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[getreel]

The earlier poster who said that full-time studios kept a tech employed and on-call full time is not correct really.

That's true. I should have said that back then, the engineers knew how to align and calibrate these machines and if you get one, you will need to learn that stuff. There are fewer and fewer people who know how to manage these things. That's really the gist of what I was getting at.

[RedWallStudio]

+1 on 15 ips and +1 on an MCI JH 16/24, which is what I have. It looks and runs a bit like an old washing machine (which I love) but they really do sounds great... I'm told they get their sound from all the trannies... who knows... but I love mine.

Btw, if you get an MCI "anything" hook yourself up with Steve Sadler at Blevins. He is lurking here sometimes and may chime in on MCI posts from time to time. Anyhow, he has a tech support service where you pay him by the year for phone and/or e-mail support. With his service I was able to fix about 90% of the issues I had with my MCI console and tape machine without having a tech touch either of them. And if I couldn't fix it myself, Steve was always able to talk me through removing the faulty part and then he would repair it at a fair rate. He has been working on MCI's since MCI was still in business... he is pretty much the go-to guy.

[mcijh]

Thanks for your support, those of you who mentioned me. What's the matter, Danny......Cat got you're tongue?

MCI is the most user friendly and user serviceable Console or Tape Machine you'll ever find.

Get a Studer; and try to find someone who'll look for the bad transistor. Then try to find the bad transistor. And then, try to buy the bad transistor. And then, don't complain about how much it costs, and how long it takes to get it.

Get an Oatarie, and wonder why your recordings sound so Semi-Pro.

SS

[vernier]

i love the way those old pre-70's decks flop out the very bottom of the kick. there's too much damn low end whoomp on digital rigs, even after things pass thru 4 or 5 trafo's. old tape clears that stuff up so nicely.

Don't like bass recorded digitally ..there's missing frequencies -gaps ..to my ears anyway.

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by vernier

Stephens 811-C eight track with 3M transport, circa 1968.
.

SWEET

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by mcijh

Thanks for your support, those of you who mentioned me. What's the matter, Danny......Cat got you're tongue?

MCI is the most user friendly and user serviceable Console or Tape Machine you'll ever find.

Get a Studer; and try to find someone who'll look for the bad transistor. Then try to find the bad transistor. And then, try to buy the bad transistor. And then, don't complain about how much it costs, and how long it takes to get it.

Get an Oatarie, and wonder why your recordings sound so Semi-Pro.

SS

Yes, yes.... I apologize Steve.
Steve IS the MCI man... period.

Take Steve's Studer advice as the truth.
When I re-built my Studer A-810 (a VERY common deck) I couldn't find ANYONE that could offer ANY help in diagnosing a few problems.
I am no dumbass and I looked all over the net.
I made A LOT of phone calls.
I figger'ed it out by myself (a burnt out drive transistor on the capstan motor's drive amp, bad caps on the repro pre-amps hidden behind the headstack, etc...)

Steve said it...
Otaris do sound weenie compared to Ampexes and MCIs.
Back in 1981 we had to have our JH-24 sent off for cleaning thanks to the fag bar next to our studio burning down. Smoke damage.
We were busy as all hell doing radio spots and stuff, so we rented a brand new MTR 90II.
Clients bitched and bitched.
The difference in sound was day and night!
It wasn't an issue interfacing it because hooking it to our Sphere was as straight forward as it gets.
Ever wonder why no-one uses MTR-10s?

Steve,
plasma cards
plasma cards
plasma cards
plasma cards

[vernier]

vintage mci multi-track, and vintage ('70s) console with api pres

MCI & API = probably quite awesome.

[mcijh]

Plasma Cards, I know, I havn't forgotten you, waiting on parts, etc.

SS

[vitreouswindows]

What would you pay for a 24-trk MCI (with 50% head life), and an Audiotronics console with 8 API (chip) pres? Thanks.

[vitreouswindows]

Anyone?

[mcijh]

Well, I've got a pig in a Poke.....how much will you give me for it?

SS

[mcijh]

Anyone? How 'bout a pig and dog.....in a poke?

SS

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by mcijh

Anyone? How 'bout a pig and dog.....in a poke?

SS

I'll swap you 2 birds in a bush.
I'm having the bird in hand for dinner.

[clusterchord]

Originally Posted by ripper

i also mix to an ampex atr 102 (best tape machine ever!) and dump from there back into tools thru a cranesong hedd.

whats the ballpark price for atr102 in reasonably good shape/sml hours ?


any other viable options in the half inch world, for mixdown?


im over the pond here, so Studer parts n service are easier to come by. dunno how risky is to get an ampex for me, as i dunno anyone hwo can fix it over here..


irght now, im using a friends A800 (not sure bout the model name) quarter inch for mixdown when i do some guitar/drums intense tracks, and it sounds great. but im not happy w electornics and/or orch scores doing this. so am looking for better sounding options myself.

[sleestack]

What is an Audiotronics api? I would like a deck with api pres. A small console. Also, how do the sound of these mci decks compare in sound to an old ampex 440

[vitreouswindows]

The console is Audiotronics and the pres (it was explained to me) have an API "chip" that gives them their character.

[sleestack]

I can't find it. Do you have a link?

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Yes, yes.... I apologize Steve.
Steve IS the MCI man... period.

Take Steve's Studer advice as the truth.
When I re-built my Studer A-810 (a VERY common deck) I couldn't find ANYONE that could offer ANY help in diagnosing a few problems.
I am no dumbass and I looked all over the net.
I made A LOT of phone calls.
I figger'ed it out by myself (a burnt out drive transistor on the capstan motor's drive amp, bad caps on the repro pre-amps hidden behind the headstack, etc...)

Steve said it...
Otaris do sound weenie compared to Ampexes and MCIs.
Back in 1981 we had to have our JH-24 sent off for cleaning thanks to the fag bar next to our studio burning down. Smoke damage.
We were busy as all hell doing radio spots and stuff, so we rented a brand new MTR 90II.
Clients bitched and bitched.
The difference in sound was day and night!
It wasn't an issue interfacing it because hooking it to our Sphere was as straight forward as it gets.
Ever wonder why no-one uses MTR-10s?

Steve,
plasma cards
plasma cards
plasma cards
plasma cards

Funny Danny,
I owned an MCI 1" 8 track and a 2" Ampex MM1200 16 track. Most engineers coming in always liked the Ampex sound to do rock and roll records but personally I always like the MCI sound a bit better. Just a tad smoother without that little Ampex bite.

It's wasn't Mac's vs. PC's in the old days... it MCI vs. Ampex vs. Studer vs. Otari.