Balancing The Drumkit?

[DarkEcho]

Do you generally mix the drumkit between its parts to get it balanced in and of itself and then adjust it in relation to the rest of the mix via a group fader- or do you adjust the individual parts to where the fit best (not necessarily realistic)?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Do you generally mix the drumkit between its parts to get it balanced in and of itself and then adjust it in relation to the rest of the mix via a group fader- or do you adjust the individual parts to where the fit best (not necessarily realistic)?

I modify constantly as the mix progresses. Often, I'll subgroup the drums to a pair of faders for convenience, but continue to adjust the individual elements. I've also recently been bussing certain drum channels (usually close mics, plus overheads) to a parallel group and compress.

[dbbubba]

Over the years I have tended to NOT use sub-mixes of drums.
This is because I learned to mix on consoles that didn't have sub-grouping.
Even when I do use sub-grouping I still have to keep going back to the drum tracks and individually moving levels once I bring the mix further along.

I guess this answers what you are asking.

I pretty well know what a drum kit should sound like for a mix, but even when I have to track a stereo mix of drums (as in working with a limited track format) I have to be VERY aware and conscious of how the drum parts will sound when everything else is included in the mix.

One of things that you really can't judge without the mix pretty well along complete is what type and how much drum ambience will be required.
It is as bit easier with current mix styles, but heavily processed and FX laded '80s drum sounds were almost impossible to gauge until everything was up and blowing (with effects on that stuff, too!)

Keep in mind that I have mixed professionally for well over thirty years, so it isn't always a slam dunk!
In the end, I would say that the faders might not being moved more than a few dBs, but the kick and snare will probably need tweaking.

[Tapeworm]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Do you generally mix the drumkit between its parts to get it balanced in and of itself and then adjust it in relation to the rest of the mix via a group fader- or do you adjust the individual parts to where the fit best (not necessarily realistic)?

I try to balance the kit with itself first. Then I add bass and try to balance that against the kick. I'll gradually add the rest. Sometimes I'll have to make adjustments in drum eq and level on a track once everything is in place. I find that I often need to take a ten minute break after everything is in place and check it again with "fresh ears".

[DarkEcho]

Not always the case, but it seems like more often you will come to the fork in the road: Realistic balance between elements (more of a live sound) or what works best for fit. If you need to bring that tambourine up to where it would be unnaturally loud in a real setting so that you can hear it-maybe thats what you need to do..

I guess it really depends on the goal of the sound. Do you want to adhere to a realistic image, or just an image that compromises so that you can simply hear everything clearly?

[Mike Caffrey]

Mixing can kind of be a guessing game bacuse you don't know what will sound best until you actually tye it and hear it.

So, if you're question comes from feeling uncertain and try to figure out how you should do it, just trust you instincts and do what ever you feel comfortable with.

Try reality is that re constant adjustments that need to be made and the more elemtns in the mix that more chances there are that you'll need to re-adjust something else that's getting masked.

Maybe the answer is neither of the two options you proposed, but EQ instead.

For me now, in almost all mixes the balance within the drum mcs is chainging through out the mix as well as the overall drum fader level.

[dbbubba]

Realistic can be a hard thing to shoot for.

How many records have an acoustic guitar intro and then the band kicks in and it is the same level?
Realistic? No.
Maybe the acoustic plays along with the rhythm track and the ACSTC is just as loud as the electric guitars with fuzz tone...
Realistic? No.

With really good arranging and with certain styles you CAN use a drum kit mix that sounds close to the balance of the actual kit.
A pop mix generally requires the drums to be exaggerated in one way or another.

Me?
I shoot for a mix that "sounds realistic" but if you really consider it...
It is pretty far from realistic.

[Musiclab]

I always start with the overheads and then bring up the rest of the kit. I don't use a subgroup although with my automation system I will group certain things in the kit together. I get a starting proportion and then get the track up, I'm always making adjustments as the mix progresses and often when I'm doing my final rides I will ride certain elements of the kit to create more excitement, so it's pretty rare that there would be one static level that I'd set

[dbbubba]

You know... it's funny that you talk about riding gain on drum parts.

I never do it!
I have been asked to do it.
If anything over the years... I get the most compliments on my drum sound, too!
I'm doing something right!

I just mixed a project for a friend and he asked that I gain ride the drums "like they did on old Queen records."
He also wanted to go for the QOTSA sound where Dave Grohl played the cymbals on a separate pass.
I don't here gain riding on the QOTSA stuff, so I did like I always do.
It rocks.

Well... I did gain ride one fill coming out of a break going back into a chorus.
I did it with an edit instead of in the mix path.

[DarkEcho]

Hmm. I guess it's definitely the application then.

I mean, if you were mixing for a movie, you would want the drum kit and other sound sources to sound like they look as far as physical placement in the video.
but in music, we can exaggerate things out of realism for the sake of clarity and point of focus. Which is probably more important than making it sound just like you are in that venue staring down the center of the stage.

[XJR]

I generally start with the overheads and try to get a good basic sound from those and a bit of width by panning. The close mics can come up then until it sounds like a well balanced kit. From there though it tends to need automating. Sometimes it's to compensate a drummer who isn't adjusting his playing volume to suit quieter parts of the song and sometimes it's to compensate for guys who appreciate some parts need to be quieter, but over exaggerate the contrast and you have to bring them up!

I'm not shooting for realism on the kit as I tend to copy what I hear on records, and thats kits which are panned much wider than drums heard in real life and a kick that cuts through more than any real acoustic drum kick would.

[MarkRB]

Balancing a kit and making it sound good in a mix are two different things IMO.

Your kit may sound great on it's own but once you have all the other elements in your Kik and Snr may be 4 or 5 dB louder than they were when you started.

All entirely dependent on the song. A rock track will have very loud Kik and Snr, a jazz track will have very loud overheads (possibly... ?). I still say push all your faders up and start where you need too, not at channel 1 "Kick".