favourite overhead techniques

[~ufo~]

I'm getting a second Groove Tubes AM62 multi pattern mic soon and I want to try the pair of them on overheads. Up until now I've used AKG C3000Bs for overheads but to little satisfaction.

So now I have two nice multipattern tube mics to try it with. My question is, what are your favorite techniques for stereo drum overheads???

just plain AB? or XY? Blumlein?

omni? cardioid? super/hyper, figure of eight ?

above, in front?

I know what I've tried, but I'm interested to find out what works well for others...

Shoot away.

[LTA]

Sounds like a fun pair of mics.

I'd probably just spend some time playing around with the patterns while using the same old positions and techniques. I personally would try hypercardioid out on everything, since i don't come across condensors in that pattern often. The hyper- pattern doesn't have as much low end as omni or cardioid, so don't be shy with the low shelf.

To me, overhead positions are dictated more by the drum setup itself. That pretty much decides what pattern is needed, which then leads to the mic choice. Sometimes, blumlein might be best, but i would have to rule it out if i didn't have figure-8s. Having every possible common combination in a pair of mics equals one less compromise.

Now, with hypercardioids, try them coincident at a 110-120 degree angle. Run it through a shuffler to get the low frequencies to line up width-wise with the highs, and you should get a good solid stereo image.

I've also heard rumors of a "stereo 180" technique, involving a near-coincident hyper- pair at 135 degrees included angle spaced 1.8 inches apart. I never think to try it out when i have the chance. Someday....

Make sure to try ORTF with hypercardioids too.

[djui5]

I'm a big spaced A/B fan.....I've never really liked xy and never use it. ORTF works too...but I tighten up the 110 degree angle to more like 100 or so...maybe closer to 90 sometimes and space them apart.
Personally I feel this widens the stereo image....something I'm a big fan of.

[ctmartin]

Try out the "Recorderman" setup.

However, I extend the length of the mics to the snare at about three drumsticks vs. what is written... that way they won't get smacked... a little more room, but not a big problem, particularly if your room sounds good.

If your room sounds good, try fig-8 with the mics, otherwise cardioid works fine (me likey).

[~ufo~]

Imma try that recorderman setup indeed.
It sounds interesting, I'v tried that kind of aproach before but didn't have a well thought out rule of thumb...

I have fairly low ceilings but the room sounds ok for drums. I'm not going for a lot of ambient though.. I usually add one mic in front of the kit around 3/4 the hight of the kickdrum, just about a feet in front of it. I Compress that quite a bit when tracking. It really brings out the character of the kick and also some top high frequencies my HH and ride mics don't seem to pick up very well.

Overheads I usually do AB cos the kit in the studio just has two crashes.... I mic them as close as I can get without getting a wobly sound due to the movenemt of the cymbals. I always close mic HH AND Ride.

[lasso]

Another vote for the recorderman setup. I used it on my last session, and I'll probably never go back to my former setup. Try it...it really rocks!

[~ufo~]

Originally posted by lasso
Another vote for the recorderman setup. I used it on my last session, and I'll probably never go back to my former setup. Try it...it really rocks!

cool!

what I didn't really get from the discription was:

what polar patterns to use and how to aim the mics.... just to the bottom? ? that goes against my intuition..... more like near coincident ?

what works for you? I'm really keen on trying it out next week wehen we start tracking drums for my band's album. I'm really happy to get my second GT AM62 , I like that mic quite bit for various things.

thanks!

[lasso]

Well, the first (left - drummers perspective) mic points directly at the snare center. The second (right . behind the drummer right shoulder) points also at the snare center as a starting point, but maybe has be pointed a litle towards the toms.

Tke key is to balance the kick and snare in the center of the stereo image, which is pretty easy with this setup.

You'll probably want to go for cardiod, but omni works as well.

Good luck with it.

As I see it, the beauty of this setup is the amount of tom sound in the overheads which as a side bonus has a much more natural sound than with a standard spaced pair overhead setup.

It just sounds damn good

[~ufo~]

that's interesting cos usually I take out all the lows of the overheads to about 600-700Hz.
all the boom come from the close mics.

it will be interesting to work with a more fullband overhead technique.

however, regarding to the "everything in phase" claim made by someone at that link....


I disagree, I usually reverse the phase of any drum that's miced on top. so snare top and tom mics all get reversed. that way the initial attack of the sounds are positive in stead of negative.
absolute phase kinda thing..

that way the snare can be out of phase w/ the overheads but I like that.... as I don't a lot of snare on my overheads.

It will be interesting to find out how well this new overhead technique combines w/ my phase reversal behaviour...

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Recorderman here!// but in general what ever works for people...

SO LONG AS IT'S IN PHASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wiggy

[LTA]

Originally posted by ctmartin
Try out the "Recorderman" setup.

Woohoo, finally a link to the horse's mouth After reading the official statement on "recorderman," it has become apparent that the actual placement of the overheads is trivial, although it is the hardest portion of the process to explain. True "recorderman" requires (as per his description) a MINIMUM of 4 mics.

In order of importance to the technique:
1. Room mic(s)
2. Overheads
3. Kick
4. Snare and toms

So, in my interpretation of true recorderman, use your most flavorful mics in the most influential location. With your room mic(s), "(c)reate a stereo (or mono, or stereo & mono...there are no rules, just choices...and you get to make them) Image, that in and of itself, could be the final drum track."

Focusing mostly on the location of the overheads in recorderman is blasphemy. May the irreverent suffer a lifelong plague of bad drum sounds. Absoloution is available to all those that repent their heresy, lest they be cast aside into the pits of sound replacer.



Ahem, sorry. UFO, concerning absolute phase. I personally start by making sure the initial hit of the kick through the kick mic results in a positive-traveling waveform. If everything is wired up right, there will be no polarity swap on this mic. Then i adjust all the other mics to be at the same relationship to the kick, which tends to result in the overheads, snare, tom, hat mics ending up with a polarity swap. Room mic polarity depends on where they get put up.

The "everything in phase" refers to the time component rather than polarity. If the time differences for the kick and snare to each mic are a touch different, the Haas effect comes into play, smearing the image. The toms (and especially the cymbals) will have a timing (phase) mismatch, but it is working with a level mismatch to create a nice stereo picture.

And, in case anybody was interested, having the 'right' overhead near a wall messes things up. At a minimum, you will want the wall at least as far away as the snare is to the right mic. 3:1 rule works for direct primary "axial" and tangential reflections too.

[~ufo~]

wel ok.

but I'm just looking to get an interesting overhead sound... basically for the cymbals.

but I'm willing to try a full band thing if it sounds nice enough.

However, I'm not much into the room and ambient mics and such, maybe because my room doesn't sound nice enough, but I've never even mixed a track recorded elswhere where I've used much of the room or ambient tracks... if at all I use the ambients...

I'm just gonna fiddle around with some positions later today... as for now I'm stuck here waiting for those damn late UPS people to deliver my Retroverb. Our national postal service beat them again with a delivery that was sent out later than the UPS one...... yugh

[~ufo~]

well I just tried the overhead part of the recorderman setup...

and indeed, it gived a nice sound for the drums...
the snare is very present and the toms sound nice and full.

BUT:

the cymbals don't sound present enough for me, not direct enough... they are there, and if I try to accent them by eq, I just get into the snare's range.

Any suggestions? or should I just go back to the way I usually like to mic my overheads?

[ctmartin]

Yvo,

I'd use a cardioid pattern in your room.

Also, I usually aim one mic at the center of the snare (the one directly above the snare), and the other mic actually facing more towards the toms/left side of the ride rather than aimed at the snare. Hard to describe, but this is the mic above the drummer's right shoulder, and I place the mic so the diaphram is facing forward and angled down somewhere just above the rim of what might be your second rack tom. This might also be around the left side of your ride. I don't find any real phase issues with the snare that way, particularly with a cardioid pattern -- just make sure the diaphram is equidistant to the snare & kick as that of the other mic. However, if I was dealing with fig-8 for the mics (such as with a pair of ribbons), I might angle this mic a little more towards the snare instead, given the width of the pattern. Of course if you were using an R-121/122 you could reverse the mic and use the back side which is brighter and would naturally accentuate the hi's.



P.S. You might experiment with adding some close mics to the cymbals, facing away from the rest of the kit, especially the snare.

[LTA]

Originally posted by ~ufo~
the cymbals don't sound present enough for me, not direct enough... they are there, and if I try to accent them by eq, I just get into the snare's range.

I don't know if i can explain why, but the first part of the above statement is kind of humorous to me.

Try good ol' parallel compression on a drum subgroup of at least the overheads, and possibly the room mic(s). 2:1 ration, maybe about 1/4 of a second on the release, attack as fast as possible, and the threshold low (like -40 dB or lower) so that it clamps down completely on the toms, snare, and anything other than the cymbal hits. Mix that back in with the uncompressed sound.

And congrats on getting overheads to sound the way they probably should. Its really wierd the first time, isn't it? When you get it into a mix, compare it to CDs with drum sounds commonly accepted as being excellent. I think there is a thread about that here on GS somewhere.

[ctmartin]

Try these...

[ctmartin]

A little more ride was needed... but watch out for phase issues with the overheads (time shift in a DAW). In the end, I think it wasn't really needed.

[~ufo~]

Thanks guys...

I'll fidle around w/ it a bit more.

the problem that I have w/ compressing the over heads like that is that it makes the level of the ride all wobly because the compressor reacts to the snare, crashes, toms and whatever.

I do like the overal sound this technique gives though.....

indeed, the toms sound nice and natural the way they should but had never really done.

thing is, I like my cymbals really bright and crispy (not middy) I might experiment with angling both mics a tad bit outwards from the snare. more towards the cymbals.
because of the cardioid pattern this really shouldn't matter on the snare, in fact it will prolly help get it rid of the overly present and brittle sound. I don't want too much snare on it, a bit is ok for ambience. as long as the phase-distance thing is well preserved....

I generally don't use a second tom, just one and a floor. either 10"+14" or 12"+14"
drummers with more than three toms, double kick pedals and chinas, I just plain refuse to record.... fuuck

sorry mate, my mics don't pick up metal, only wood and rock

[-=glEnn=-]

Originally posted by ~ufo~
the cymbals don't sound present enough for me, not direct enough... they are there, and if I try to accent them by eq, I just get into the snare's range.

i have the same problem with this setup, the cymbals kinda looses its edge. It sounds great and natural on its own but in a busy mix the cymbals doesnt sound as present as i would like.
But i love this technique anyway, great punch in snares and toms and wide stereo image....me likee

/mike

[dhughes]

I think this is why this set up works so well with mics like the Josephson c42s. They tend to be rather bright but when used in the recorderman set up it works very well with the cymbals and whole kit.

Just a thought...It might be more an issue with the OH mics you are using than the technique.

[heinz]

agreed, I just tracked 14 tunes using the RM setup & C42's. No problemo with cymbal edge or presence, great image (not too wide or too narrow) and wonderful tone.

In fact, for the last two weeks I've been auditioning studios in the Seattle area to mix this record. The one comment that I've heard consistently from the engineers is the cymbals sound GREAT. Now, the rest of the stuff....

Needless to say there's LOTS of variables here other than o/h technique, including the Drummer, how hard they play cymbals vs. the kit, what type of cymbals are being used, what is the room configuration, the preamp (I use DRS-2), the converters.... man it's endless.

[~ufo~]

I use two GrooveTubes AM62 mics which are on the bright side for tube mics. Preamps are the console ones so far, which aren't half bad. I have a soundtracs IL3632

the cymbals do sound great, but not isolated enough to really accentuate by eq.
as I said, Imma try and point the mics a bit outwards and see how that will work for me.
I have good hope it will.

cheers

[Drumsound]

I find a nice room mic is a great place to get some brightness out of a drum-set. I've found this not just on things I’ve tracked, but also on things I mix for others.

[borut]

Try MS and put the mics above the drummers head!!
Last time I did that I mixed the song practically without close miked snare and toms!! It was a rock song and the drums had to have bog drums.
Mics used were Brauner VM1 (cardioid M)
and a Beyer figure of 8 ribbon for side,
I think I plugged both mics into SLAM with
quite some opto limiting!

Just a suggestion.
Borut

[~ufo~]

Originally posted by Drumsound
I find a nice room mic is a great place to get some brightness out of a drum-set. I've found this not just on things I’ve tracked, but also on things I mix for others.

agreed, I did this w/ a AM62 as front of kit (kick) mic before I had the second one.

I'll use an C3000B or NT1 for it now I guess.
prolly the latter as it is nice and crispy.

[Ahellam]

I started tracking drums for MY band last night and I used the recorderman setup. I thought this would be my only chance to really experiment (because its not a paying gig, time is money blah blah blah)

The phase was perfect with the room mics and it gives more of a natural feel to the drums to my ears but I just dont know. I will post clips later. It allowed me to let alot more high end through on the room mics. Who knows, maybe in the final say of everything it will sound great, for now, I am just kind of weirded out, but Im glad I tried it.

[~ufo~]

thurr we go

[~ufo~]

eerrmmm

[warhead]

Sometimes I use the BLUMPKIN technique, but typically go for ROTF/LMAO nearly coincidental.

Uh...typically spaced pair for me with the snare equal distance from both. Or X/Y.

War

[~ufo~]

Ha ! Blumpkin !

ehe

ee Blumpkin !

Honestly I tried to take the recorderman approach but keep enough close mic there to not get burned in the mix. Recorderman suggests you should get a real nice room sound first.... well, the nearly coincident setup of the C3000Bs worked best in the end. But they are just such dull and boxy mics it never got close to sounding like an "actual drumtrack"... The Tubemics as overheads however do sound really nice and paint a very wide stereo picture which gets complimented by some "liveness"of the AKGs....
I used that Beyer Soundstar on snare for the first time and it kills the ß57, but it also has a little buzz in the sound so I couldn't track it compressed and stuck the ß57 in there which I did track compressed as a safety net.
The two mics combined actually give a cool fat 70s kinda sound due to the comb filtering.
For some songs w/ rimclicks I used the ß57 to pick more up from that. As this is my first go at the recorderman thing I opted for the safety net approach as don't wanna get burned at mixdown.
Though I think it's gonna turn out pretty nice!