Andy Wallace's Huge but TIGHT Bass Mixing

Bang · 1st August 2004, 09:14 PM

Listening to some Andy mixes (Headstrong by Trapt is a GREAT one) and I'm just so amazed at how tight but huge his bass is.

I'm thinking that he does the old trick where he rolls off the low end to about 250hz with the SSL Eq and then puts back a bell at 130Hz and then compresses the hell out of it with the SSL channel comp till that tight 130Hz starts to sing a bit. Anyone know any more details? I'm pretty sure the Alge bros mix bass this way. I also heard a rumor that Andy used a dbx subharmonic on his bass, but that could be BS.
Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

jasonlivermore · 2nd August 2004, 01:27 AM

I got to watch Andy mix the Descendents album, "Everything Sux" in 96. He ran both bass signals from tape to a neve 10?? eq at 40 hz boosted all the way. Then this went into the board, pre compression and eq. He seemed to focus his eq on the bass around 200 to 300. The biggest thing that he did with the bass was to automate every note, so the bass was always there. Sometimes leaning on the di, or sometimes the amp whatever would make the bass react and sit the way he wanted. The faders were moving like mad! It was quite a pleasure watching him. He was a super nice guy too!

Jason Livermore
The Blasting Room
Ft Collins, CO

thethrillfactor · 2nd August 2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jasonlivermore
The faders were moving like mad! It was quite a pleasure watching him. He was a super nice guy too!

Jason Livermore
The Blasting Room
Ft Collins, CO

I think you made a great point.

One thing i've always felt that seperates the mixes of Andy Wallace and Tom Lord Alge from everyone else is how well they ride the faders through out.

I think its something that gets overlooked by the "me too" gear mooks.

You can build a song greatly by the use of the faders.

And i dare say also with the master fader.

I can imagine a lot of people that love to slap on the 2 buss comp never even bother to ride the master anymore.

Extreme Mixing · 2nd August 2004, 06:28 AM

The truth is always the same. In mixing the faders. and who's moving them, are the most important element.

Steve

lasso · 2nd August 2004, 09:15 AM

"I got to watch Andy mix the Descendents album, "Everything Sux" in 96"...

Some guys have all the fun....come on, you can't stop there...more more more...tell us how he did everything ;)

jumpnyc · 2nd August 2004, 12:50 PM

Seriously - any tips from watching Andy would be GREATLY appreciated. He's the tops

jasonlivermore · 2nd August 2004, 04:16 PM

These were the things that I took away from watching Mr. Wallace for a week:

He used little to no outboard gear.

Monitors at whisper like volumes.

Used ambient samples of the kick and snare to achieve size and stabilty from the drums. No reverb on the real kick and snare, but plenty of tiled room and large chamber on the samples.

But as stated above, he would automate every fader. If the cymbals were not being played, they were turned down a little. When hit, he would ride them up. He was conducting the mix, bringing out every last drop of anything to make the songs come alive! The chorus would get a master fader ride to give it more impact. Everything was always heard, and that is not the easiest thing to do. Much attention to detail to make sure if something cool was happening it was heard.

Again it was a pleasure watching him.

Jason Livermore

jumpnyc · 2nd August 2004, 04:42 PM

This is awesome. Great tips. So he would have samples of the kick and snare with verb mixed in. Compressed?

thethrillfactor · 2nd August 2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jasonlivermore
He was conducting the mix, bringing out every last drop of anything to make the songs come alive! The chorus would get a master fader ride to give it more impact.
Jason Livermore

Bang · 2nd August 2004, 05:04 PM

I found it so cool that he put the bass into the Neve and boosted 40Hz!! Cool stuff!! I thought he never used any eq besides the SSL eq. Jason, do you remember how he mixed bass when you saw him? There is NO MUD on his bass and its tight but it does this thing where it hums under the kick.... also like its been said, you hear every note of that bass. I'd love to hear more about Andy's mixing techniques.
Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

Fidelis · 2nd August 2004, 05:05 PM

How much ride do you guys do in the master fader? For me, when the band is good and performed with good dynamics, and proper arrangment, I don't have to ride it (or lust little like 0.5db) But there are times that i ride it almost 3dbs...
But i really don't see people doig it that much.

thethrillfactor · 2nd August 2004, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fidelis
How much ride do you guys do in the master fader? For me, when the band is good and performed with good dynamics, and proper arrangment, I don't have to ride it (or lust little like 0.5db) But there are times that i ride it almost 3dbs...
But i really don't see people doig it that much.

I do it all the time to create dynamic buildup and tension through out the song.

Especially from verse to chorus up to the climax.

I hear it all the time in TLA and Andy Wallace's mixes.

Its a subtle thing, but if its something you are familiar with you learn to appreciate it.

thethrillfactor · 2nd August 2004, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bang
I found it so cool that he put the bass into the Neve and boosted 40Hz!! Cool stuff!! I thought he never used any eq besides the SSL eq. Jason, do you remember how he mixed bass when you saw him? There is NO MUD on his bass and its tight but it does this thing where it hums under the kick.... also like its been said, you hear every note of that bass. I'd love to hear more about Andy's mixing techniques.
Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

Bang · 2nd August 2004, 08:23 PM

Using some of the techniques I just read about in this thread, I did two quick in the box mixes with a new song from the band Torn who is in my studio now. The first uses some of these techniques and the second does not. Tell me if the first mp3 sounds better.

www.blacklinerock.com/music/TheGame.mp3
www.blacklinerock.com/music/TheGame1.mp3

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

enharmonic · 2nd August 2004, 08:52 PM

Andy Wallace is a beast! I really like his mixes. He makes "music" that would otherwise be unlistenable, listenable.

Guys like him are the reason that I don't like to mix. No matter how good I might get, I'll never be Andy Wallace good :).

LTA · 2nd August 2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
I hear it all the time in TLA <snip>

Hmm, TLA. LTA. I should call him up sometime and act like i'm related (although LTA isn't an acroymn for my name).

After reading this thread, i pulled out an old session and rode the faders on the bass tracks. Took some time, but it was amazing how you could push and pull notes with just a few tenths of a dB alteration. I found you could even add a slight sub-pulse to the line that wasn't even present in the original track. I went back and started tweaking the drum tracks, but 6 hours had already gone by and I was almost late for work :( I can only imagine doing that on every track, but i can understand the huge impact it would make.

JKL · 2nd August 2004, 11:45 PM

Steve,
I take it you did the bass trick on the first sample. There's a low frequency growl in the bass (very cool) that's not there in the second sample. Just listening on headphones... but the drums seem to punch better on the first take also (could be my imagination, or might have something to do with how the bass is eq'd). Very good sounding tracks either way, but I prefer #1.

Jon

Shaman · 2nd August 2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by enharmonic
Guys like him are the reason that I don't like to mix. No matter how good I might get, I'll never be Andy Wallace good :).

Funny. I´m the opposite.
Guys like him make me believe, that it´s worth to keep on keeping on

Every time I listen again to his mixes on Jeff Buckleys GRACE I know it

Wiggy Neve Slut · 3rd August 2004, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaman
Every time I listen again to his mixes on Jeff Buckleys GRACE I know it

Its funny about grace how it was produced,engineered a dn mixed by andy yet it does not have that distinct 'Andy stamp' on its sonic signature. I think he went without the samples on the drums as most of the time the drummer is being what 99% of what drummers do and that is hit the drums inconsisently. I think that great decision on his part to impart a sense ordegree of organic tone/warmth to the production. And its those telling decisons that made that album such a feakin killer production and him such a monster in the greater scheme of mixing..

I'd give a testicle to hang out during a mix on day!... Jules how about a guest mod spot?

Wiggy

Bang · 3rd August 2004, 01:35 AM

I would offer 100 bucks for Andy Wallace to guest mod for a month. If you think that maybe 500 members offer the same, that makes 50,000 and then maybe it would be worth his while. Maybe it could be a password protected forum so that only paying members could ask him questions. Just a thought. I started mixing because of Nirvana Nevermind and I strive to get better because of albums like the new Trapt.

any more opinions on my two MP3s? The first one I added the 40Hz bell before processing the bass and I also rid most of the faders a lot more. Thanks Jon for your comments btw.
Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

lasso · 3rd August 2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaman
Funny. I´m the opposite.
Guys like him make me believe, that it´s worth to keep on keeping on

Every time I listen again to his mixes on Jeff Buckleys GRACE I know it

The most annoying thing is, that the guy I'm currently working with hangs out with Mick Grondahl from time to time, but I've never had the chance myself. Good for him probably..."How did Andy do this...how did Andy do that..."

But still...

Cheers, Lasso.

lowswing · 3rd August 2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaman

Every time I listen again to his mixes on Jeff Buckleys GRACE I know it

though i love andy's sound and love the songwriting and performance of jeff buckley i think the combination (probably an idea of a greedy A&R) is a bit overkill to buckley gentle music..

doorknocker · 3rd August 2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lowswing
though i love andy's sound and love the songwriting and performance of jeff buckley i think the combination (probably an idea of a greedy A&R) is a bit overkill to buckley gentle music..

Come on....what I find so absolutely stunning about 'Grace' is how uninhibited emotion meets precision and imagination. I wouldn't call Jeff's music gentle either (ever heard his live take on the MC5s 'Kick out the Jams'?) I would call it very dynamic and let's face it, he had the musical chops and pipes to make it work. I sincerely believe that Jeff Buckley was too talented for his own good, there were so many directions he was going in at the same time. IMO, it was a major achievement on his and Andy Wallace's part to bring it all together with 'Grace'.

An album for eternety!

Andi

lasso · 3rd August 2004, 12:07 PM

Andy Wallace as guest mod
Andy Wallace as guest mod
Andy Wallace as guest mod
Andy Wallace as guest mod

Come on everybody...shout...it suspect he might be lurking around here, so if we shout loud enough

LumenStudio · 3rd August 2004, 12:39 PM

I'll shout it too for the hell of it.

Shaman · 3rd August 2004, 01:45 PM

Please uncle Jules, pleeeeeeeease call Andy Wallace

gko · 3rd August 2004, 01:51 PM

Ditto(head)

Gertjan Koning

Drumsound · 3rd August 2004, 06:23 PM

It would be pretty great to have Mr. Wallace here!

Hey Bang,

I like the one labled "The Game 1" better. I think it's got a lot more life. The other one just seems to sit there. I'm pretty sure the one that sits there is the one where more faders are moving...

There are some cleaner mute things on the first one, but I really like the second.

My $.02

Caldo71 · 3rd August 2004, 07:26 PM

Epic thread.

Caldo71 · 3rd August 2004, 07:32 PM

Epic thread.

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2nd August 2004, 06:28 AM	#4
Extreme Mixing Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 130	The truth is always the same. In mixing the faders. and who's moving them, are the most important element. Steve __________________ Steve

2nd August 2004, 09:15 AM	#5
lasso Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 343	Re: Andy Wallace's Huge but TIGHT Bass Mixing "I got to watch Andy mix the Descendents album, "Everything Sux" in 96"... Some guys have all the fun....come on, you can't stop there...more more more...tell us how he did everything ;)

3rd August 2004, 06:23 PM	#28
Drumsound Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bloomington Il Posts: 3,600	It would be pretty great to have Mr. Wallace here! Hey Bang, I like the one labled "The Game 1" better. I think it's got a lot more life. The other one just seems to sit there. I'm pretty sure the one that sits there is the one where more faders are moving... There are some cleaner mute things on the first one, but I really like the second. My $.02 __________________ Tony Oxide Lounge Recording See the Oxide Lounge! WWJMD? Come see me on the Tape Op boards! "If I have to flip flop more than three times in an A/B test to figure out what the difference is, I lose interest in that difference.'--Tchad Blake

3rd August 2004, 07:26 PM	#29
Caldo71 Gear maniac Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mëtaluma Posts: 177	Epic thread. __________________ www.greatmagnetrecording.com "All Things Flow According to the Whims of the Great Magnet" —Raoul Duke

1st August 2004, 09:14 PM	#1
Bang Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,292	Andy Wallace's Huge but TIGHT Bass Mixing Listening to some Andy mixes (Headstrong by Trapt is a GREAT one) and I'm just so amazed at how tight but huge his bass is. I'm thinking that he does the old trick where he rolls off the low end to about 250hz with the SSL Eq and then puts back a bell at 130Hz and then compresses the hell out of it with the SSL channel comp till that tight 130Hz starts to sing a bit. Anyone know any more details? I'm pretty sure the Alge bros mix bass this way. I also heard a rumor that Andy used a dbx subharmonic on his bass, but that could be BS. Steve www.bangrecording.com www.blacklinerock.com

2nd August 2004, 01:27 AM	#2
jasonlivermore Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ft collins co Posts: 172	I got to watch Andy mix the Descendents album, "Everything Sux" in 96. He ran both bass signals from tape to a neve 10?? eq at 40 hz boosted all the way. Then this went into the board, pre compression and eq. He seemed to focus his eq on the bass around 200 to 300. The biggest thing that he did with the bass was to automate every note, so the bass was always there. Sometimes leaning on the di, or sometimes the amp whatever would make the bass react and sit the way he wanted. The faders were moving like mad! It was quite a pleasure watching him. He was a super nice guy too! Jason Livermore The Blasting Room Ft Collins, CO

2nd August 2004, 12:50 PM	#6
jumpnyc Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 695	Seriously - any tips from watching Andy would be GREATLY appreciated. He's the tops

2nd August 2004, 04:16 PM	#7
jasonlivermore Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ft collins co Posts: 172	These were the things that I took away from watching Mr. Wallace for a week: He used little to no outboard gear. Monitors at whisper like volumes. Used ambient samples of the kick and snare to achieve size and stabilty from the drums. No reverb on the real kick and snare, but plenty of tiled room and large chamber on the samples. But as stated above, he would automate every fader. If the cymbals were not being played, they were turned down a little. When hit, he would ride them up. He was conducting the mix, bringing out every last drop of anything to make the songs come alive! The chorus would get a master fader ride to give it more impact. Everything was always heard, and that is not the easiest thing to do. Much attention to detail to make sure if something cool was happening it was heard. Again it was a pleasure watching him. Jason Livermore

2nd August 2004, 04:42 PM	#8
jumpnyc Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 695	This is awesome. Great tips. So he would have samples of the kick and snare with verb mixed in. Compressed?

2nd August 2004, 05:04 PM	#10
Bang Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,292	I found it so cool that he put the bass into the Neve and boosted 40Hz!! Cool stuff!! I thought he never used any eq besides the SSL eq. Jason, do you remember how he mixed bass when you saw him? There is NO MUD on his bass and its tight but it does this thing where it hums under the kick.... also like its been said, you hear every note of that bass. I'd love to hear more about Andy's mixing techniques. Steve www.bangrecording.com www.blacklinerock.com

2nd August 2004, 05:05 PM	#11
Fidelis Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil Posts: 173	How much ride do you guys do in the master fader? For me, when the band is good and performed with good dynamics, and proper arrangment, I don't have to ride it (or lust little like 0.5db) But there are times that i ride it almost 3dbs... But i really don't see people doig it that much.

2nd August 2004, 08:23 PM	#14
Bang Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,292	Using some of the techniques I just read about in this thread, I did two quick in the box mixes with a new song from the band Torn who is in my studio now. The first uses some of these techniques and the second does not. Tell me if the first mp3 sounds better. www.blacklinerock.com/music/TheGame.mp3 www.blacklinerock.com/music/TheGame1.mp3 Steve www.bangrecording.com www.blacklinerock.com

2nd August 2004, 08:52 PM	#15
enharmonic Lives for gear Join Date: May 2004 Location: 410 Posts: 569	Andy Wallace is a beast! I really like his mixes. He makes "music" that would otherwise be unlistenable, listenable. Guys like him are the reason that I don't like to mix. No matter how good I might get, I'll never be Andy Wallace good :).

2nd August 2004, 11:45 PM	#17
JKL Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Mexico Posts: 198	Steve, I take it you did the bass trick on the first sample. There's a low frequency growl in the bass (very cool) that's not there in the second sample. Just listening on headphones... but the drums seem to punch better on the first take also (could be my imagination, or might have something to do with how the bass is eq'd). Very good sounding tracks either way, but I prefer #1. Jon

3rd August 2004, 01:35 AM	#20
Bang Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 2,292	I would offer 100 bucks for Andy Wallace to guest mod for a month. If you think that maybe 500 members offer the same, that makes 50,000 and then maybe it would be worth his while. Maybe it could be a password protected forum so that only paying members could ask him questions. Just a thought. I started mixing because of Nirvana Nevermind and I strive to get better because of albums like the new Trapt. any more opinions on my two MP3s? The first one I added the 40Hz bell before processing the bass and I also rid most of the faders a lot more. Thanks Jon for your comments btw. Steve www.bangrecording.com www.blacklinerock.com

3rd August 2004, 12:07 PM	#24
lasso Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 343	Andy Wallace as guest mod Andy Wallace as guest mod Andy Wallace as guest mod Andy Wallace as guest mod Come on everybody...shout...it suspect he might be lurking around here, so if we shout loud enough

3rd August 2004, 12:39 PM	#25
LumenStudio Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Jersey Posts: 322	I'll shout it too for the hell of it.

3rd August 2004, 01:45 PM	#26
Shaman Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Munich - Germany Posts: 1,789	Please uncle Jules, pleeeeeeeease call Andy Wallace

3rd August 2004, 01:51 PM	#27
gko Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Leiden Posts: 47	Ditto(head) Gertjan Koning

3rd August 2004, 07:32 PM	#30
Caldo71 Gear maniac Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Mëtaluma Posts: 177	Epic thread. __________________ www.greatmagnetrecording.com "All Things Flow According to the Whims of the Great Magnet" —Raoul Duke