Real Rhodes / Wurlitzer OR Nord Stage for Recording Only?

[Jazzystu]

Well, I've finally got to having a blast on a Stage EX.

The pianos are good, very very very good. They cut it bigtime, I've had a load of classic pianos and in my opinion, the Nords cut it totally. I wasn't sure, but after poking around with it a bit, it's a hugely powerful tool.

As said on here, there is nothing like playing the real thing and if you want your music a bit dirty, the imperfections of the original are nice. If you were trying to set one up perfectly and you got it spot on, before anyone messed it up, or anything drifted, you'd get a Nord sound. They really are good. My gripe is with the suitcase panning being slightly wrong, but it's still good. You can tweak the sound in ways which would be more expensive with the original. I had a whole series of Rhodes, including a suitcase and the Nord Rhodes are spot on in comparison. I've busted my arse spannering my pianos and got them pretty good.

My personal gripe is that the action is totally inappropriate for the clavinet.

I'll probably buy another D6 when I get around to it, as there is nothing like them. The Nord is pretty close with the sounds and the autowah is nice, no noisy pickups or too much hum like the original. A clav is something that you can't replicate. The organ is pretty good (I had a redcap C3 and a whitecap C3) and it has a lot of the nuances down, but again, the action is all to cock, no matter what they say about "making it faster".

I'll get a cheap midi keyboard and it'll probably sort it out. As a piano, it's bloody good. Despite what people say about the acoustic pianos being out, they are pretty good from where I am. The synth is a surprising animal as well.

So, following the Nord:-

Would I buy another Rhodes? Yes, I'd have another Suitcase 88, but it would have to be a sensible price. They are well overvalued at the moment. The Nord is fine for all Rhodes jobs though.

Would I get another Clavinet? Yes. For sure 100%

Would I get another EP200A? No. The Nord cuts it totally perfectly, bit of trem, bit of drive....

Would I get another Hammond? No, I don't need one enough.

It is a bloody fine instrument which is well made. Don't believe the nay-sayers. The Nord is bloody good. Really really good. You can't be all things to all men and this is purely due to having a compromised organ/clav action. However, it is easier to plug a solution in than it is to plug a weighted action in.

It doesn't look as cool as a suitcase piano, but it's a load lighter, quicker, more reliable and just better. Sure, it doesn't "clack" like one, but it's hell of a good.

Thumbs up here

[area51recording]

A real Rhodes is great, but at this stage upkeep is probably going to be an issue, and for myself at least, I NEVER played one even back in the day where the keybed didn't feel like absolute sh*t. Maybe I was just unlucky but every one I ever played had a sluggish, spongy feel.... Sounded GREAT tho.

[Jim Williams]

They wrote a song about this years ago; "There's nothin' like the REAL THING, baby".

Simulations may be acceptible for live where the sound systems are not the best or with background audience noises, but in the studio there is no excuse for not using the real instruments unless you are about saving money.

Yes, I'm biased. I designed the Mk7 Rhodes and have maintained and heavily modified Stevie Wonder's Rhodes and clavinets with new advanced circuits.
A Rhodes piano properly set up is like nothing on earth. It will lull a baby to sleep.
No sampler or converter can reproduce the pure sine like waveforms of those metal tines. Nor can they reproduce the attack bell strike and variences of the dynamics as you play.

A Nord will respond pretty well to those dynamics if you have a great midi controller with full polyphonic aftertouch, a midi controller like a Mk7 Rhodes as an example... but then you wouldn't need that Rhodes patch as you would have the real thing, baby.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Jazzystu]

Well done with the Rhodes, it took someone to do it. It looks great, sounds great and I wish you the very best with it.

Any chance of doing a clavinet? Are they still in copyright/patent?

The Mk7 rhodes looks a bit fragile to me and it most certainly would get dragged around.

I've had a clav in bits a few times and looking at it, you could probably get the stuff made in China to a high standard for a good price.

If you do it, make the case bombproof like the original.

Stu

[Carotte]

Is it worth tuning your guitar before every song? Because it takes a lot of time, for just a little difference! Everything is about detail, especially in the studio! I own both wurli and rhodes, so I guess that puts me on the ''no'' side of this pole... But I definitely wouldn't spend money on an emulation. These units are very sturdy, and unlike string instruments don't need as much tuning and maintenance, actually, I don't even see it as a factor in this decision. I only care about two things, the sound (in which case the original is better considering an emulation is suppose to mimic it, meaning this is not about which sounds better, but which sounds more like the original) and the feel, which is just a matter of preference...

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Jazzystu

Well done with the Rhodes, it took someone to do it. It looks great, sounds great and I wish you the very best with it.

Any chance of doing a clavinet? Are they still in copyright/patent?

The Mk7 rhodes looks a bit fragile to me and it most certainly would get dragged around.

I've had a clav in bits a few times and looking at it, you could probably get the stuff made in China to a high standard for a good price.

If you do it, make the case bombproof like the original.

Stu

I've seen no interest in remaking Clavinets, plenty still out there used if you want one. We recovered Stevie's as they are the originals, first ones made. They have been restrung and refitted with new hammer tips. One had a pickup go bad so I got one third party. If I were to redesign them I would redesign the pickups into a split humbucking configuration to eliminate all 60, 120 and 250 hz noise. The circuits were also modified, I posted those mods at the clavinet web site if you want them.

The new Rhodes is fiberglass casing. If that's a problem, 4 bolts underneath removes it and then you can have a road case made for it. They are sold with custom flight cases so they don't get damaged when transporting them.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Stevil]

+1 on the hauling one around live back breaker.
otherwise i'd always prefer a real one.

[Jazzystu]

It's funny how people attribute more than just the 2 criteria of input to all sorts of keyboards. Velocity and Pressure. You whack a rhodes with these varied criteria and you get a noise which you hear, a digital recorder hears and can be reproduced. You do it with an acoustic piano and it's the same thing. It's almost like you play a keyboard, which then tells a bloke playing a proper keyboard what to play, which he does instantly and perfectly, you then hear the result in the usual way. Obviously you lose the touch.

I like a proper Rhodes, but to say that it isn't totally replicatable is foolhardy as much as another hammer action which triggers a sample is. If they worked on an action which produced a resistance/depth relationship like a Rhodes, Stevie Wonder wouldn't tell the difference.

Obviously, a Clav is different, you have the slop in the keys and the way the strings fall off the tangs, the way the pitch raises when you press harder. The clav has a bit more to the velocity/pressure equation and to replicate the response would take an action which was as complex as the instrument it was trying to emulate.....pretty much.

I think a brand new Rhodes and a Nord (which may as well be a recording of such) wouldn't be able to be told apart, unless you were playing it.

From my experience with my EP200a, that (once set up right) through headphones/external speakers was a pretty dead instrument. Sure, you play it through it's own speakers and feel the movement of the thing, the whole way it feels and it's living, breathing, but really you whack the keys and it makes the noise. Completely replicatable.

There is only one way to test which is any good, and that's to do blind testing.

I'm confident that you lot wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Mk7 and a Nord. Regardless of amp, processing or whatever. They are the same thing. Velocity/Pressure>>>>>a sound which goes into your brain. They are not exclusive things separated by some sort of cosmic magic.

Let's not let our emotions cloud our judgement here

[Jim Williams]

Sounds like you have not sat down with a Mk7. The Nord cannot reproduce the complex range of sounds the real piano can make. The equalizer allows you to obtain a hard hammer sound without hammer tip replacement.

Just pressing down one note and hearing the complex range of dynamically created harmonics is something no sampler can do.

Remember, this was a question of best sound in the STUDIO, not live. The Nord is fine for live as I said. It will fall flat against the real thing in the studio. If that were not true, no one would bother with Rhodes, would they?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Batchainpuller78]

Hey Live performances with the real instruments are a lot to prefer as well.
Seeing John Medeski live with a Grand Piano/B3 Hammond/ Wurlitzer/ Clavinet D6/ Arp String Synth/ Mellotron/ Melodica and effects like Space echo & moogerfoogers, is a treat to the ears & the eyes.

But I agree might be impractical for most.

[Knox]

Nothing like the real thing. I have a wurlitzer and a rhodes here. There is no patch on any synth that can capture the real thing.

[Batchainpuller78]

indeed have '73 Rhodes / Clavi D6 and wee Hammond here as well and yes it's just to good.
I once lost the hammond tracks of a Reggae band, they did those with something digital they brought along, we redone them with the real Hammond and the instant vibe that was added to the tracks was fenomenal, comparing to the original bounces I made, everybody was happy with the new tracks.

I'd love to have a Wurli though.

[baikonour]

Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78

indeed have '73 Rhodes / Clavi D6 and wee Hammond here as well and yes it's just too good.
I once lost the hammond tracks of a Reggae band, they did those with something digital they brought along, we redone them with the real Hammond and the instant vibe that was added to the tracks was fenomenal, comparing to the original bounces I made, everybody was happy with the new tracks.

I'd love to have a Wurli though.

We have a Rhodes '76 MK1 as well as a D6 and a Wurli, all being restored with great care, as well as a Nord Electro 2, even if the latter is good and a great tool, it has not the tone and versatitility of the real thing. it is amazing how you can tailor the sound of a Rhodes to your liking by adjusting the tines, the pickups etc.. and also the DI you are goin to use.

[sailor]

Originally Posted by Jazzystu

I'm confident that you lot wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Mk7 and a Nord. Regardless of amp, processing or whatever. They are the same thing. Velocity/Pressure>>>>>a sound which goes into your brain. They are not exclusive things separated by some sort of cosmic magic.

Let's not let our emotions cloud our judgement here

You're probably right....it's close enough, it's good enough, it pretty much sounds the same.

But the final arbiter of an instrument's value does not lie entirely in the end result of what comes out of the speaker and gets recorded. We're still talking musical instruments, and instruments are played, felt, seen, enjoyed, smelled even. Do those "emotional" attributes no longer play ANY part in how we choose to make our music? Whatever happened to vibe?

The last band I was in, our keyboardist had a Nord. We loved its Rhodes and Wurli emulations, it did a pretty decent organ and passable piano too.....and he wasn't about to drag his Wurli to shows. Totally got the job done onstage.

Later our guitar player bought a Rhodes from a friend, just to have a cool piece of kit in the inventory. We decided to take it to a gig....at a venue where they also had an upright and a B3. I can't tell you how satisfying it was for all of us -- not just the keyboardists -- to be doing an ANALOG show, with all the real deal instruments. It felt great, it sounded fantastic, it was a classy look, and I like to think it lifted our performance just a little bit by putting us in an "organic" mood, for lack of a better word.

Maybe it was all placebo effect, maybe it was all emotional romanticism. Whatever -- it was great.

Let's not kid ourselves -- samplers and capable synths can get you 98% of the way there. Often, that's 100% of what you need, measured by end product coming out of the speakers and by what matters to listeners. And practically speaking, hell yeah, I'm all for easier cartage, maintenance and set up.

But every once in a while, that last 2% makes its appearance, and the results are very gratifying, well worth whatever hassle it took to make it happen.

Doesn't "cool factor" matter at all any more? Really, convenience aside, what would you RATHER play?

[Sky]

Originally Posted by sailor

You're probably right....it's close enough, it's good enough, it pretty much sounds the same.

[...]

Later our guitar player bought a Rhodes from a friend, just to have a cool piece of kit in the inventory. We decided to take it to a gig....at a venue where they also had an upright and a B3. I can't tell you how satisfying it was for all of us -- not just the keyboardists -- to be doing an ANALOG show, with all the real deal instruments. It felt great, it sounded fantastic, it was a classy look, and I like to think it lifted our performance just a little bit by putting us in an "organic" mood, for lack of a better word.

Maybe it was all placebo effect, maybe it was all emotional romanticism. Whatever -- it was great.

[...]

Doesn't "cool factor" matter at all any more? Really, convenience aside, what would you RATHER play?

Great observations sailor.

Sky

[Jazzystu]

I'd much rather play the real deal.....

But I'd rather someone moved it, tuned it and repaired it for me.

Hearing my old suitcase piano miked up through some decent speakers was beautiful.

For pro gigs where I'm just gigging, I'd use a Nord, for a proper concert, I'd use the real deal.

I have a 1966 mini cooper which is pretty tuned and does about 15mpg. It is great fun and never let me down. However, I also have a diesel van which is quieter, a lot more economical but isn't inspiring. I'd rather drive the mini, but the van makes more sense a lot of the time. If I'm going somewhere "cool" or I fancy a change.... I'll take the mini. There was a time I used it on the road every day and doing Cornwall/Bristol twice a week was not fun. 80mph..... AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH No.

I can see the points being made here and yes, I have played all varieties of Rhodes, from felt hammers to the latest "stage". If your ear can hear it, then you can reproduce it electronically. You can and there is no magic (trust me, I'm also a physics teacher) involved.

The bottom line is that whilst you can (and you really can) reproduce the sound.... I'm sure Nord could also manage a "usual" rhodes with a couple of quiet notes and a few that go "CLACK CLACK" for measure. They probably wouldn't get the action right and it would be way off the mark to look at.

From a recording point of view, where we are solely concerned with the sound, depending on how gritty and imperfect we wanted the outcome, it would be a much of a muchness. Only a really anal expert could tell. There would be no way I'd play anything which I could distinguish from the real thing soundwise.

I'd rather personally use the real equipment for recording as there is an "inspiration factor" involved and knowing you used the real deal. Soundwise, I don't think there is a lot in it.

If you couldn't sample the result of a tine being struck (including random elements) by recording and playback, it would follow that all my herbie hancock albums would not sound authentic.

I had a chat with 2 blokes (both well recorded NY Jazz Pianists-one of whom was my teacher) about classic kit and they said "Why are you dragging that old crap around, my so and so does better" and I thought they were wrong..... They were then, but not now. Back then your Hancocks and Zawinuls were using "an electric piano" as a tool and nothing more.

This is precisely what they still are.

I could apply the motoring analogy and ask whether I'd really want to see someone put a Ford Mondeo up Prescott Hillclimb.... it would be pretty boring really..... but it would put in a good time.

I've given it some thought and have decided that I will be getting classic kit again..... in the same way that I'll still drive the mini around.....

I won't be getting another Hammond/Leslie even though they are totally awesome. I just don't play jazz organ so much anymore.

[Dr Gris]

54 professionals that care and 23 others so far.....
Don´t get me started on the Hammond simulation.
I have a Nord Electro and I LOVE it for live usage, running trough a Fender Reverb Tank
into a Fender Bassman Combo.
Wouldn´t think of going thru a linebox(exept pianosounds from Nord Stage)tutt

If you´re after a nice vintage Telecaster thru a blackface Fender Superreverb sound,
would you get that from "whatever" Line 6 "whatever"....
Not in my book!

I don´t care if a bit torrent downloading mp3:aholic younggun can´t hear a difference.
In a studio situation I take pride in getting as good sound as possible and it starts
with the source.

This rant is from the perspective that you have a choice.
I have a choice, I happen to own these vintage keybaords, lucky me
Don´t get me wrong, I think Clavia makes darn fine productsthumbsup

Please exuse my spelling/grammar, I´m from Sweden, just like Nord Electro/Stage.

/M

[trubac]

Originally Posted by Jazzystu

I'd much rather play the real deal.....

But I'd rather someone moved it, tuned it and repaired it for me.

Hearing my old suitcase piano miked up through some decent speakers was beautiful.

For pro gigs where I'm just gigging, I'd use a Nord, for a proper concert, I'd use the real deal.

I have a 1966 mini cooper which is pretty tuned and does about 15mpg. It is great fun and never let me down. However, I also have a diesel van which is quieter, a lot more economical but isn't inspiring. I'd rather drive the mini, but the van makes more sense a lot of the time. If I'm going somewhere "cool" or I fancy a change.... I'll take the mini. There was a time I used it on the road every day and doing Cornwall/Bristol twice a week was not fun. 80mph..... AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH No.

I can see the points being made here and yes, I have played all varieties of Rhodes, from felt hammers to the latest "stage". If your ear can hear it, then you can reproduce it electronically. You can and there is no magic (trust me, I'm also a physics teacher) involved.

The bottom line is that whilst you can (and you really can) reproduce the sound.... I'm sure Nord could also manage a "usual" rhodes with a couple of quiet notes and a few that go "CLACK CLACK" for measure. They probably wouldn't get the action right and it would be way off the mark to look at.

From a recording point of view, where we are solely concerned with the sound, depending on how gritty and imperfect we wanted the outcome, it would be a much of a muchness. Only a really anal expert could tell. There would be no way I'd play anything which I could distinguish from the real thing soundwise.

I'd rather personally use the real equipment for recording as there is an "inspiration factor" involved and knowing you used the real deal. Soundwise, I don't think there is a lot in it.

If you couldn't sample the result of a tine being struck (including random elements) by recording and playback, it would follow that all my herbie hancock albums would not sound authentic.

I had a chat with 2 blokes (both well recorded NY Jazz Pianists-one of whom was my teacher) about classic kit and they said "Why are you dragging that old crap around, my so and so does better" and I thought they were wrong..... They were then, but not now. Back then your Hancocks and Zawinuls were using "an electric piano" as a tool and nothing more.

This is precisely what they still are.

I could apply the motoring analogy and ask whether I'd really want to see someone put a Ford Mondeo up Prescott Hillclimb.... it would be pretty boring really..... but it would put in a good time.

I've given it some thought and have decided that I will be getting classic kit again..... in the same way that I'll still drive the mini around.....

I won't be getting another Hammond/Leslie even though they are totally awesome. I just don't play jazz organ so much anymore.

Great Post !
not because I love Cornwall, still got a 66 Triumph Herald convertible, had an Alfa Romeo 1750 Bertone coupe, and recently a VW Van 1998 ... and a Rhodes stage 88 and a Wurli 200a ...
he is totally right.
At the end of the day the Nord is great, but just boring and uninspiring.

Oh, And I'm not even a keyboard player : I'm a trumpet player that prefers to play on my Olds 1955, Martin 1938, than my sold, a long time ago, "all the time perfect" Yamaha trumpet.

[The Listener]

Real thing, no doubt, if you want that sound; if you want Nord sound, then record that. I am just now mixing a record that extensively uses Rhodes and I appreciate, appreciate... it is a really nice sound and those velvety purring low mid and bass tones... sweeet!

Ok, a sneak preview attached (for those who voted for Nord...)

[Jazzystu]

I've had a day or to with my new EX88 and it is really really good. Really hell of a good. It's a seriously excellent bit of kit.

It's like a new car versus a classic though. It is better, a lot better. When you hear their "rip off" rhodes, you can almost see the bass tines waggling. It is very good and the times I've spent with the screwdrivers getting it right.....and it's just there.

I'll buy another Suitcase 88 and D6, for sure as I like the smell, noise, roughness, what it looks like set up, I suppose there is a sense of great achievement making one sound nice on the stage.....the Nord is just a keyboard.

But, it's very close to being all things to all men. It's a very credible instrument and does lots of other things "which may come in handy".

I hate bloody diesel mondeos. They are shite, but sometimes you know they're the right choice for the daily drive. It's good to have something for the weekend though.

Having had all of it. I would pick having a Nord first and then start getting a huge load of vintage gear afterwards.

I would also say that the action of a Nord probably would flatter a weak player moreso than any of the rhodes I've had. (Even with the pedestal mods)

At least now I've got a useable board, I can go after the right proper kit without being in a mad rush.

I'd prefer one that I didn't have to rebuild/spanner/recover/set up

[Sky]

I finally got to hear a Nord Electro 2 live on stage and think the Rhodes and Wurly sounded really good. What's interesting to me is that the player got some pretty realistic "heavy handed" expression from it, even with its light-action keyboard.

Sky

[Kiwi]

I've owned an played the real things (various Hammond tone wheels, Rhodes, Wurly) and various synths and sample libraries (including Scarbie) - searching for the perfect sounds like on the records I love ...

Admittedly, the instruments I owned were battle scarred and ended up needing repairs that are difficult to achieve in this part of the world. I've given them all away, with zero regrets. I appreciate the museum curators of this world who maintain the real things to preserve that part of our history - but for me, it's history and we can move on now.

I can't say I love the Nord Electro 2, but the Electro 3 is definately on my shopping list. (I have controller keyboards I prefer, so i'm not considering the Stage).

For me, samples are not perfect by any means (but neither are most 'real deals' ). Unless Scarbee has fixed his sample libraries, I really hated the way he compressed all the samples to the same loudness, and then used velocity to control the loudness of each note. If you listen to the individual samples, they have been crushed to death, with cheap gear by the sound of it.

In my opinion, the future for preserving the perfect electric piano sounds lies in additive resynthesis. This allows us to use samples as program an additive synth, which can morph seamlessly between the different samples. That gives more realism than current algorithmic pianos that sound a bit plastic. It removes the need for trying to sample a perfect real piano - which basically don't exist anymore. With resynthesis, we can sample a soft pp note, and a barking FF note, and the synth can create all 127 notes in between that transition perfectly. We can sample just the best notes of a great keyboard, and the synth can fill in the blanks. Because ultimately, as a musician I don't want quirky dud notes or unexpected sounds. I can dirty up a perfect clean sound, but it's hard to disguise a faulty instrument, or bad samples.

At this point in time, i'm not aware of any keyboard maker offering a keyboard using resynthesis in this way - so the best is yet to come. In the meantime, there is some cool software that can be used - e.g. Camel Audio Alchemy could be used with your choice of samples ...

I appreciate the real things for getting us thus far - but it's a digital future for me. The Nord stuff is a good stop gap.

[goldphinga]

The nord stage is an amazing board. Ive got the compact version and its my goto board for live rhodes, clav etc. I sometimes use the clav in lieu of my real clav for recording too as its that good and my d6 is really noisy these days. On all recordings i use my real rhodes all the time but for live the nord stage is saving my back and sounds fantastic, particularly with a bit of phaser on. Im looking forward to the new nord rhodes samples that are coming soon too.

[FarWestWrenchCo]

I just had my 1980 mkII Rhodes restored, played it for the first time in years - what pure pleasure!
Still, I'm in the market for a Nord to use live, sheer practicality really - no way I'm going to acquire a grand piano, B3, clavinet, rhodes, wurli and schlep them all to gigs of course. Call me Captain Obvious
While I'd be very curious to A/B the real rhodes vs Nord synthesis for recording purposes, I can't imagine choosing the Nord. Half the joy of the Rhodes is the sense that you're physically connected to the sound being produced. That feeling of 'intimacy' with the instrument inspires better performances I reckon.