should I get used console with or without fader automation?

[trauha]

I want a big good old discrete console.

I now see myself using it mostly as a summing device, and for the occasions when I run out of preamps into ProTools.

Looking at nice old consoles for sale some have fader automation, some don't.

What are the advantages of automation on console rather than in PT?
Worth the extra cost? Magic sonic advantage vs PT faders?

Thanks

[getreel]

What are you going to be recording on? If it's a DAW and you want to sum through the console, you shouldn't need automation as you can just do it in the DAW before feeding the console. Also, a lot of consoles had VCA automation and that can/will degrade the sound more than a plain ol' fader. Although there are some great modern VCAs where this is negligible, older used consoles with VCAs may not be all that clean. just my $.02 of course.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by trauha

I want a big good old discrete console.

I now see myself using it mostly as a summing device, and for the occasions when I run out of preamps into ProTools.

Looking at nice old consoles for sale some have fader automation, some don't.

What are the advantages of automation on console rather than in PT?
Worth the extra cost? Magic sonic advantage vs PT faders?

Thanks

If you're automating in PT, you need a VERY quiet console as all the faders will remain wide open as you pull back the levels in PT. Most older discrete consoles are not normally all that quiet. Maintainence is key here.

The "magic" of mixing on the console is the tactile vibe of doing it that way.

[mltamisin]

My console isn't that big or that old (1993) but I've not noticed much in the way of noise. I have the faders up at unity and automate levels in Pro Tools also. Noise depends on the board certainly. If you don't already own a console or you've already gotten used to mixing without fader automation then you won't miss anything because you already don't have it. If you're console isn't noisy then I really don't see a problem using DAW automation. I personally don't have fader automation and have no desire to get it.

[Paul_G]

an issue may be hitting compressors etc. after DAW automation.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Paul_G

an issue may be hitting compressors etc. after DAW automation.

Certainly!! Compression on an analog insert of the console will not work properly when pulling or pushing the levels in PT. It will change the threshold point on the compressor. If you're using only ITB compressors/limiters, it's not a problem.

[dbbubba]

A decent console set at unity is quiet enough.
Note that I said "decent."

I have an MCI 538C and although I still have the VCAs in place I have removed the automation computer.
I would like to buy all new faders and do away with the VCAs, but they do give it flavor.
Plus, they aren't THAT bad because nine jillion classic records that sound damn good were mixed on them.
they are the same VCAs in many "classic" SSL consoles, so...

The way I mix from DAW thru the console is to set the DAW's faders at "O" and build a mix on the console.
I then do major automation moves in the DAW and tiny moves on the console.
I generally don't automate the lead vocal(s) and do them by hand on the console.
This way the signal feeding the compressor threshold stays correct.

One of the things that it would be nice to keep on an automated console is mute automation.
This is one of the main ways that we kept mixes quiet in the pre DAW days.
Turning stuff off when it isn't needed.
I still use lot's of mute groups.

[ron florentine]

I automate everything inside Nuendo then out to my Neotek console everything for the most part set ar unity gain and then out the 2 buss to a couple great comps and a Massivo through a cranesong Hedd 192 and it work beautifully.....lots of depth,richness and clarity........I believe in these days console automation is overkill when you can automate in the box the go out of the box at unity through a nice analog console then out to great hardware.....you get the best of both worlds.



Ron Florentine
Soundswest Studio

[trauha]

Originally Posted by drBill

If you're automating in PT, you need a VERY quiet console as all the faders will remain wide open as you pull back the levels in PT. Most older discrete consoles are not normally all that quiet. .

Maybe having subgroups from ProTools going to the console instead of every single channel independently might be the answer? Then no need for so many channels to be hissing open. Is that a silly compromise?

What about retrofitting just a few channels with automation? Or does that get too logistically weird, automation in two separate places?

What is available as to retrofits? I know Uptown is no longer available.

Thanks

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by trauha

What about retrofitting just a few channels with automation? Or does that get too logistically weird, automation in two separate places?

What is available as to retrofits? I know Uptown is no longer available.

If you're going to retrofit "just a few" faders, you might as well do the whole board. Once you've got the automation computer and software in place, the cost of the extra motorised faders wouldn't be so significant.

As for brands - I'm not sure about Flying faders (isn't there always rumours of a FF II being developed?), I'd imagine you could retrofit Encore, maybe GML automation too (as used on the classic Neves).

[Musiclab]

I dont sum in the box I have an automated console with a lot of I/O so I treat it like a tape deck and automate from the console

[drBill]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

If you're going to retrofit "just a few" faders, you might as well do the whole board. Once you've got the automation computer and software in place, the cost of the extra motorised faders wouldn't be so significant.

Actually, depending on the manufacturer, the cost of motor faders is extremely significant. Very $$$

[drBill]

Originally Posted by trauha

Maybe having subgroups from ProTools going to the console instead of every single channel independently might be the answer? Then no need for so many channels to be hissing open. Is that a silly compromise?

No, not necessarily, but....

every console is different as are individual needs. I have a 120 input D&R OrionX. It is dead silent and installed well - so no hums, buzzes, etc. Personally I find that unless you're going thru a class A console with transformers and extra "grunge", there's no point in going OTB. But that's just me. I did extensive testing going outside to the Orion, doing a BTD, and recording thru internal busses back to PTHD. The result?

I record thru internal busses back inside to PTHD for a variety of reasons - the chief ones being increased creativity and instant recall. Anything that the console can give me, I can attain ITB. Really, the only difference the Orion gave me was just a very slight rounding off of transients. I decided I liked the punchier ITB versions of the mixes better. If I WANT a little grunge, etc., then run the stereo outputs thru your fav compressor or tube pre. Done.

Just my opinion though, not trying to start a ITB vs. OTB war. I will say that I would NOT use a console for summing that wasn't very quiet. Having all the faders open is not my idea of a good time or fun mix. ie: Older soundcrafts that sound like noise machines to me.

[trauha]

Originally Posted by drBill

Just my opinion though, not trying to start a ITB vs. OTB war. I will say that I would NOT use a console for summing that wasn't very quiet. Having all the faders open is not my idea of a good time or fun mix. ie: Older soundcrafts that sound like noise machines to me.

What would the best reason for getting a console then be?
Thanks

[drBill]

Originally Posted by trauha

What would the best reason for getting a console then be?
Thanks

Tracking or studio sex appeal.

[studjo]

Bill do you have any form of faderpack or do you everything with a mouse?
I couldn't live without console automation - I need the tactile thing ...

just me

Jo

[drBill]

Originally Posted by studjo

Bill do you have any form of faderpack or do you everything with a mouse?
I couldn't live without console automation - I need the tactile thing ...

just me

Jo

I'm pretty much a trackball kinda guy. I grew up on normal consoles and automation, but when PT's automation started taking off, I saw the writing on the wall and went that direction for automation. I find the creative plusses to outweigh the sonic deficits. It's about music first and sonics second for me (although sonics and the soundstage are EXTREMELY important to me), and I can make the music happen better ITB. In addition it suits my workflow, which often is all over the place, changing songs, projects, styles, etc..

I love analog consoles though and will never sell mine. Since there's no room for a big control surface and the console in the same room........the console wins out! I tried a motormix once and just didn't dig it. I wouldn't mind trying out a pro control sometime. Or maybe one of those control 8's. I have a smaller Vision (analog console) that I could put side by side with a pro control or smaller interface and make some sort of frankenstein analog/control surface, but.......maybe someday. For now, the trackball allows me to function quite well and I'm much faster with it than any other way of working. There are times I wish to grab a few faders at the same time though.

bp

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by drBill

Actually, depending on the manufacturer, the cost of motor faders is extremely significant. Very $$$

Fair enough. Although I still say if you're going to go with the hassle/expense of setting up console automation, you may as well automate all the faders you have (or at least, have the capacity to add them into the system when you can afford it).

[studjo]

thanks Bill - this shows how different people are - I just love to grab some faders and feel the music. When I check how many dBs I change something it's mainly within one dB but the difference for me is huuuuuuuuuuge. I really balance stuff against each other - something I can't do with a mouse - but I'm sure you do the same stuff with the trackball ... whatever works as they say

Jo

[drBill]

Originally Posted by studjo

whatever works as they say

Jo

Like you say, I find myself doing .3 dB changes all the time. Subtly is where it's at for me.