Strings from the 70's

[Rodney Gene]

Looking for advice on what to look for including modeling keys. I'm looking for the smooth analog string sounds that you might hear on artists like Roberta Flack, Peaches and Herb, Al Green, 70's Marvin Gaye, Hot Chocolate, Blood Sweat and Tears alot of Disco records, etc.

I have heard alot of great reviews on The Micro Korg synth.

I can't afford moog, I can't use soft synths so I am looking primarily for standalone units. Something permanent.

EDIT:
I should mention that I hear alot of the same strings on Early Elton John, Abba, Air Supply, and other remarkably sappy 70's love tunes.

Thanks!

[Dave Martin]

Well, at least some of those records used real sring sections, with parts created by a real arranger. I would guess that if you can't afford a Moog, you can't afford live strings....

For an inexpensive (if slightly gear intensive) approach, I'd suggest that if that's the sound you want, go into the used market (whatever that happens to be in your area) and try to find some old synths from that era - ARP's String Ensemble, Korg's Poly 6, a Prophet 5, Roland's Juno synths. They shouldn't be worth much (if anything) these days (Except maybe the Prophet), so if there's a single sound that you like, the synth may be worth buying just for that one sound.

[Rodney Gene]

Mucho Gracias Dave Martin!

I was aware of the string sections...I love to read liner notes!

I would guess that if you can't afford a Moog, you can't afford live strings....

You are correct! I would love to produce a real ensemble someday. I can imagine it being pretty intense.
As for the moog... well, add it to the list of priorities and it doesn't show up too fast

For an inexpensive (if slightly gear intensive) approach, I'd suggest that if that's the sound you want, go into the used market (whatever that happens to be in your area) and try to find some old synths from that era - ARP's String Ensemble, Korg's Poly 6, a Prophet 5, Roland's Juno synths. They shouldn't be worth much (if anything) these days (Except maybe the Prophet), so if there's a single sound that you like, the synth may be worth buying just for that one sound

I do look at older synths and modern analog synths. Don't really have the space for too much more stuff, my place is only 2 rooms. True enough the Prophet is still picking up good cash.
Thanks again!

[loudist]

Have you considered Gigastudio? Real string section samples.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Rodney Gene
Looking for advice on what to look for including modeling keys. I'm looking for the smooth analog string sounds that you might hear on artists like Roberta Flack, Peaches and Herb, Al Green, 70's Marvin Gaye, Hot Chocolate, Blood Sweat and Tears alot of Disco records, etc.

I have heard alot of great reviews on The Micro Korg synth.

I can't afford moog, I can't use soft synths so I am looking primarily for standalone units. Something permanent.

EDIT:
I should mention that I hear alot of the same strings on Early Elton John, Abba, Air Supply, and other remarkably sappy 70's love tunes.

Thanks!

My favorite string sections from the 70's were on the Barry White records.

And these were definitely real.

That goes for some percussion as well.

[NeoVXR]

IMHO without programming, you won't get too far.
the presets wouldn't likely hit the needs of the song. those old strings were very fine and sensitive, from voicings to phrasing, and tweaking the sound.

roland:
JX3P, Jupiter 8, D70

Yamaha DX7 (there are good string sounds around, solos and pads, in these many user-made bank loader libraries/progs), these have very characteristic attack and timbre properties, but must be combined with some analog synth as above, and a little chorus effect is recommended. together they sound quite natural.

oberheim matrix, there are some patches that help for solo sounds.

of course, prophet


by stacking a few synths you can get amazing results, but - rarely without sensitive programming and EQ-ing.

for playing, attack dynamics are important. should be adjusted to the song, in the keyboard and in the sound component that is used for the attack job.
sustain is critical. often you need a very short sustain, but then add reverb.


many newer songs work like the arranger found a fascinating preset in a sampler, and built the song around it.
70ies songs, there was a certain idea, and everything was tweaked to fulfill it, even whole orchestra partitures were written.

I would recommend 3 tracks: low, high, and solo, consisting of different sound banks. polyphony : rarely more than 2-4 notes per track.
..
ah yes, counterpoint is the correct word, mr.olhsson wrote it below!

[YuriK]

From memory, there was a synth called Solina String Ensemble. That was very popular in the 70's ans appeared on many commercial releases.
Of course the trick is :
1.find one working
2.knowing how to use it in the mix.
I believe there is a soft version floatinf around which was supposed to be quitre good.

Alternatively there are samples

Yuri

[Paul David]

I needed an analog string patch last week and didn't have anything that fit the song soooooo

I found a patch that was in the ballpark in the triton, had the keybaordist push nobs, switch parameters and tweak envelopes til it was closer, ran the left channel through a td 100 with the impedence tweeked all the way right till it sounded bright and strange (but vibey) ran the right channel through a mp-2nv di out to a centuar acoustic pa with a sto-2 3 feet off the grill between the tweeter and the 12" speaker pointed down (or was it up?), ran the sto-2 through channel 3 of the mpx 4aii (for that extra burr brownie-ness) brought both faders up and mixed them until the keyboardist and I looked at eachother like THAT"S THE SOUND!!!


The moral of the story is this- experiment with whatcha got if you don't have whatcha want. Unless you don't have anything... then save up for the moog.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Even though they were mainly recorded in the 90's.. **looks both ways**

The strings on Lenny Kravitz's early albums were REALLY sweet. I think the kinda nailed that Curtis Mayfield kinda vibe. Especially on the kinda hld good half crap album, 'Are You Gona Go My Way'...

Im tipping it was stack of tube Neuman's, Neve's Telefunkens, trident Arange, EMGI TG tube consoles and ooooo and dont forget the players.

Wiggy

[Rodney Gene]

Thanks for the replies!

I have some good samples (I think they are good) in my Korg Triton and a couple of filters to tweak them with. I have sounds I am getting now that I like..and use.. but some samples still sound too 'samply'. Don't know how else to phrase it.

Approach during the performance certainly makes the biggest difference but I am just wondering if genuine analog synths would get me farther?..or am I just talking myself out of tones that I can generate now that are already useful?

It is easy to focus on your shortcomings when you want to buy new gear!

Peace!

[sloanfiske]

I second the ARP Solina String Ensemble

All over records in the 70's.

You can still find 'em for 200-300 (of course, there were those days when you could find them in the trash)

ARP also made a few others with the same settings (or so they say)

Bear in mind, it doesn't sound like a quartet, just pretty cool.

Rolands Vintage Synth card for the JV series does a pretty bang up job as well. Not to mention the Chamberland settings of any of the Vintage Keys/60s-70s cards or rackunits

Think Earth, Wind, and Fire.

Please forgive us Jimmy Haskell, we know not what we do.

[Scot Solida]

If you go looking for a Solina, keep in mind that it was simply a rebadged Arp String Ensemble, so that will do as well. So will and Arp Omni or an Arp Omni II. I have an Omni II in the next room. Unfortunately, it went south a couple of weeks ago, and I haven't had time to fix it. I may have a couple of samples lying around that you can use if you have a sampler. PM me, and I'll see what I can do (might be this weekend, I am knee deep this week).

Alternatively, if you have a VSTi host, check out the free Cheeze Machine:

http://bigtick.pastnotecut.org/index...de=110&lang=EN

or Crazy Diamonds from here:

http://rumpelrausch.de.vu/

For a real throwback to the seventies, the excellent and inexpensive M-Tron from G-Media is highly recomended:

http://www.gmediamusic.com/gforce/m-tron/index.html

Not too many songs make it out of my studio without some Mellotron goodness, courtesy of M-Tron.

[Farm sounds]

You should check out Sonic Reality's "vintage time traveler" cd rom. It has everything you want. You can hear a demo online through ilio.com or spectrasonics.com

Can the triton import akai samples?? If not, I would suggest picking up a Akai S2000 on ebay for $200.00 bucks and buying this CD. For $400.00 you got everything you need.

[scotty-o]

Another vote for the old ARP String Ensemble. 70's synth strings galore.
The free VSTi "Cheese Factory", as mentioned already, is cool, especially being that it's free.

-Scotty

[Bob Olhsson]

The ARP indeed was the first acceptable substitute for the real thing. I was told that it was a European keyboard that was distributed in the US by ARP.

In 1970 I was recording two or three string sessions a week at Motown. It was probably the single most fun thing we did. When I moved to San Francisco in 1972, strings were another rude awakening to the difference great arrangers and 18-20 members of the Detroit Symphony can make!

Keyboard player strings tend to be written in harmony rather than in counterpoint. I've even run into guys whose charts sounded like a keyboard when they were recorded with a real section! By the same token, student players rarely have instruments or the technique that sounds great.

In most cases a great arrangement of fake strings sounds better than student players or stacking a single player. One good sounding trick is to add one real player to a synth part and this doesn't need to be the greatest player.

[Waylon]

Everyone needs to read Bobs post again ( and again) as the harmony vs counterpoint issue is really what seprates the men from the boys with string arrangements..

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by Rodney Gene


Approach during the performance certainly makes the biggest difference but I am just wondering if genuine analog synths would get me farther?..or am I just talking myself out of tones that I can generate now that are already useful?

Genuine analog synths will not get you closer to that old string sound you're looking for because, as it was pointed out, it was done with real strings. Old analog synths will help you to recreate the Holiday Inn versions of those old clasic tunes.

-R

[Rodney Gene]

Originally posted by RKrizman
Genuine analog synths will not get you closer to that old string sound you're looking for because, as it was pointed out, it was done with real strings. Old analog synths will help you to recreate the Holiday Inn versions of those old clasic tunes.

-R

I hear ya.

There is quite a bit of sound I could get in a synth as well. Many of the songs I love didn't use real string sections.

There are songs from Yes, Styx, ELO, Kool and the Gang, Commodores, Stevie Wonder and many more who used synth strings. The sound isn't neccesarily organic, it is just a certain type of sound that I am fond of and hoping to recreate.

There are a couple of ARPS on Ebay right now but we'll see.

Peace.

[StoneinaPond]

Hey Rodney,

I think this is interesting. Don't know if it fits your bill.

Sound Online

All the best in your searches.

[isa215]

certainly arrangement of strings is the key. (harmony vs. counterpoint etc.) - the art of arrangement along with orchestral parts is no longer so commonplace - or at least certainly not in popular music. This is no doubt partially due to budget/studio dimensions and other such constraints.

With regards to strings, however, I have found some excellent results can be had from recording a smaller 'chamber' string ensemble and then carefully layering with well chosen string samples (maybe even some analogue string pads).

[Bob Olhsson]

Almost all of the great arrangers have been brass players.

[Ted Nightshade]

Might or might not help here, but it's a good time to curl up with a really good orchestration book. Give you all kinds of ideas. A couple that got through my thick skull that way were these: Most times the best part is one that is so easy to play on that instrument that the player can put full energy into making music, and not geeking on pulling it off at all. Another one: Lots of times the best part is one that really takes advantage of the characteristics of the instrument and is something you couldn't do as well on a different instrument- for instance, "guitaristic" things that you can't do on another instrument.

In this case, you might have things you can do with fake strings that you couldn't do as well with real strings- could be, those are the things to do.

[loudist]

Bob, is it true that a lot of the string arrangements were based off of James Jamersons basslines?

[Burt]

the analog synth string sounds by the artists you mention are from either:

ARP String Ensemble (a rebadged Solina basically)
ARP Omni / 2 (massively popular in disco records of the late 70's that couldn't afford real strings in the budget)
Freeman String Symponiser (more abscure but used by Elton John amongst others).

You've mentioned Stevie Wonder's synth strings - whole different ballgame - up 1974 what you're hearing is TONTO - a huge custom Moog Modular with various add on's. The analog string sounds were painstakingly programmed by Malcolm Cecil &
Robert Margouleff. From Songs In the Key of Life to the early 80's you're hearing the rare and ridiculously expensive Yamaha GX1. You might be able to sqeeze a similar sound out of the other Yamaha polyphonics such as CS80 - but they are still expensive.

IMO - the Solina IS the 70's string sound but its a one trick pony. If you want to get into the complex programming of the Stevie-kind then a good analog synth is the only way. Treat each oscillator/filter/envelope/vca monophonic voice as a solo violinist, etc. Incredible realism is possible with multiple passes on a DAW but it takes time. To do it all in realtime ala TONTO would cost a small fortune (a large modular synth with a complex cv/gate polyphonic setup).

If you're looking for cheap then try the soft synths suggested - although they will sound thin compared to a true analog. They are certainly usable though - there is a great ensemble for Reaktor called 'Fatpad' - some great Solina type presets on there.

Finally - there are some amazing string libraries out there. I use Garritan Orch Strings - not so good for fast disco-type strings but for lush pop/orchestral/r&b - they are superb - especially if you're into midi programming and GigaStudio.

Bob - guess you worked with Paul Riser right? What a genius for string arrangements...

Burt

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by loudist
Bob, is it true that a lot of the string arrangements were based off of James Jamersons basslines?

Not at all that I'm aware of!

I worked with Paul Riser, Dave Van de Pitt, Tom Baird, Jerry Long, HB Barnum, Wade Marcus and undoubtedly others I'm spacing after 33 years.

A little bird told me the ARP/Solina was used on a lot of Stevie's '70s stuff. I don't know if it's true, my last work with him was around 1970-71 before he moved to New York and we've never talked about any studio stuff since then.

[Jam]

Just to underline something Bob said I did some tech work with Uli Jon Roth ( ex Scorpions guitarist ) he was recording a widdle fest solo album at home ( biggest Soundscape set up I've ever seen ) and he mocked out the parts using samples ( Peter Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra ) and then had single real players double the top lines. Although this was not quite the real thing it worked very well in context. Still not a real budget solution but compared to the real thing a pretty cheap way of getting good results.

Jam

[kosi]

A lot of the disco strings are Unisono lines anyway.
There is one very good Library specially for this purpose in the market:
The Siedlacek Smart Violins (3 Akai CDs) They have all these ovtave licks and small slides. And a lot of extra licks, also. These are little string groups (mostl y only violins) in a pretty small room.
The other bang for the buck is the Eastwest Symphony Silver Edition, which sounds a lot bigger spacewise. Very impressive

I sometimes record one (real) violinist over my arranged Sample Strings, this helps alot !

kosi

[Rodney Gene]

Thanks for all of the replies! I sincerely appreciate it.

I have had a little better success running my Triton through some analog effects.

I have been listening to a ton of songs lately that have those strings and feel like maybe I should post a couple examples.

Solina is my first choice at this point and I have been looking at the modeling synths (played an ION and was totally blown away by the lead sounds. The strings were weak)

BTW- I can't use ANY soft synths at this point.

Stevie Wonder: Songs in the key of Life, I thought he was using the Dream Machine? I have seen the DVD documentary on the reunion and they show it all over the place and talk about how unique it was. Gave Stevie the chance to play several sounds at once for the first time..(Huge keyboard!)

Burt: Thanks for the tips on the Freeman String Symponiser! Elton always has someof my favorite synth sounds!

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Jam
...he mocked out the parts using samples ( Peter Siedlaczek Advanced Orchestra ) and then had single real players double the top lines...

This indeed was very common as artists decided they no longer wanted to pay for string sections.