Drums...Real or samples?

[Blindside]

I'd just like the consensus as to which my slutty brethren like the best.

I must say that I do not understand the whole sampling trend. Yeah, you can beat detect and sample all of your drum tracks, and they can sound "perfect", but it takes the drummer out of the equation. You then have, basically, a drum machine playing samples. The only thing the drummer did was have the ideas.

What ever happened to things like "drum tuning" and "mic placement". This used to be the staple of audio recording, and it seems now is a lost art.

I have a low end homestudio and I get some damn good drum sounds, IMO. I spend time picking the right snare, tuning it. Tuning the toms and kick accordingly, and then figure out the best mic placement for the room. It's fun. It takes time, but the end result is so rewarding.

Is it laziness? is it not having the ears/ability to tune drums and place mics?

What is it that is so appealing about samples?

Please explain.....

[DontLetMeDrown]

Ok. I try really hard with mic placement. I'll get the kick sounding just how I think I want it. Snare is cracking. Sounds great. Then curiosity strikes and I fire up drumagog and listen to the Steven Slate snares blended with my snare. Hmm. That sounds nice. Let's try some kicks. Ooh, I love it so much. I should probably stop but I just can't. Until I can beat Steven Slate's mic placement, I'll probably continue to use samples. I guess that is admitting that I suck, but until I can do better...

[James Guitar]

hands down, i prefer micing, recording and playing real drums, but when i'm in a time-sensitive situation (which i am 90% of the time as i write music for television and commercials), i tend to go for the samples just for the sake of expediency.
-J

[dangoudie]

I only use samples on kicks but I'm on a very steep learning curve so I'm disciplining myself to practice my chops rather than just stick in samples.

My last few jobs I haven't used any samples but I haven't been that pleased with the kick sound either...I mean it's been fine but it doesn't sound AMAZING which is where I want it.

If you're operating under tight deadlines (who isn't?!) then samples are a godsend

[chrisj]

I dunno- for me, there's little I enjoy more than PLAYING drums, but as far as being professionally solid? ouch. I don't like getting slammed for my lame playing, and I also have been heavily heavily influenced by underground electronic dance music, particularly jungley sorts, and experimental stuff like Aphex Twin.

So some of the stuff I like I _cannot_ play, and what I can play, I can't really play well enough to get by on a professional level. I have a very good ear but not enough groove physically.

So I make drum samples- was just doing it today, in fact- because there's also a side of me that's done startling things sequencing drum parts that are really demanding, the side that loves prog and outre time signatures and polyrhythms. There's no chance I can play those physically, but if I make samples, I can have MY SOUND coming through the programming, because simple things like how you hit the drum have a huge impact on the sound of the resulting programmed part.

It's actually pretty nuts- you have to basically hit the drum with exactly the same feel, velocity and flow you would if you were jamming away continuously- notably velocity, a big dumb armswing isn't going to get the right kind of hit- but you do it in a vacuum where it's out of nowhere, with no setup or release, and then you practically hold your breath so there aren't extraneous noises in the decay. Different drums like snare, hat etc take very different motions and energies. I'm still developing all this but even when you can afford to take a lot of time over it, just the simple matter of hitting the drum is actually very hard. It's like you'll sprain something, hitting so suddenly out of nowhere and then holding still again. It's a gross violation of the need to keep going a la Keith Moon. I usually have to yell "and we're FINISHED! WOO!" when it's over, just to vent some of that incredible, blocked energy

[Jack Ruston]

Well here's the thing: It's nothing to do with what you can or can not record, its to do with what you can or can not mix...

In order to compete with the 'big and bright' thing that thats now popular, we need to soak every last bit of impact, bottom end and top end out of our drums in order to compete with the size that we now have in our instruments....Lets face it, when everyone talks about 'Bonham's sound' they're talking in the context of the guitars that his drum sound was working with. If you tried to put Bonhams drums up against modern guitar sounds you wouldn't hear them. At all. So we have a problem because of spill. If we make the snare more compressed and brighter and more edgy etc etc we just bring up the nasty parts of the hat and cymbals. And what's more the drums lack 'saturation' so we need to layer them in exactly the same way as we layer vocals and guitars. There's a lot to be gained by taking your own samples of the drummer you're working with, without all the spill of course, and mixing them down to stereo and layering them with the take of that drummer. It's exactly the same as doubling the guitar parts.

But then we start to think that we could really benefit from adding something to that sound that wasn't there to start with, and then things change a little sometimes for the best and somtimes for the worst. All I would say is that we are illusionists as audio engineers and sometimes samples make the illusion.

I'm the first to agree that samples can just be a fix for a bad sound. Unfortunately though, the reality in this job is that a bad sound is the best you're ever going to get with the drummer, kit and room that you have on some jobs.


Jack

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Jack Ruston

Well here's the thing: It's nothing to do with what you can or can not record, its to do with what you can or can not mix...

In order to compete with the 'big and bright' thing that thats now popular, we need to soak every last bit of impact, bottom end and top end out of our drums in order to compete with the size that we now have in our instruments....Lets face it, when everyone talks about 'Bonham's sound' they're talking in the context of the guitars that his drum sound was working with. If you tried to put Bonhams drums up against modern guitar sounds you wouldn't hear them. At all. So we have a problem because of spill. If we make the snare more compressed and brighter and more edgy etc etc we just bring up the nasty parts of the hat and cymbals. And what's more the drums lack 'saturation' so we need to layer them in exactly the same way as we layer vocals and guitars. There's a lot to be gained by taking your own samples of the drummer you're working with, without all the spill of course, and mixing them down to stereo and layering them with the take of that drummer. It's exactly the same as doubling the guitar parts.

But then we start to think that we could really benefit from adding something to that sound that wasn't there to start with, and then things change a little sometimes for the best and somtimes for the worst. All I would say is that we are illusionists as audio engineers and sometimes samples make the illusion.

I'm the first to agree that samples can just be a fix for a bad sound. Unfortunately though, the reality in this job is that a bad sound is the best you're ever going to get with the drummer, kit and room that you have on some jobs.


Jack

Damn good post! Totally agree!

I use samples for two reasons:

1. To enhance (not completely replace) my drum sounds... Using a 808 sample to enhance the low end on my kick... some white noise-y kind of snare to mix in with my snare etc...

and/or

2. To add isolation.... I ALWAYS take the time to sample the kits I record after im done recording the song. I then mix in the "sampled" snare or whatever drum (the same snare playing on the track) with the live snare track to add some isolation/gating effect. This is great for toms as well.


I am very luck to be able to work on more expieramental (less commercial) projects I believe in and do not need to use samples on to be "competitive". And i love every minute of it!

Cheers!

[bulls hit]

Originally Posted by dangoudie

I only use samples on kicks

Same here. I'm edging ever closer to the snare sound I want but I'm never going to get a decent kick in my room

[Nama]

Well, many pros use samples creatively than you might think.

I use samples almost every time because I often do modern rock/punk sessions, and if you (Clients) want the sound, it is very difficult to do without samples. If you are a pro, and have really tried, you understand what I mean.

Best

[picksail]

A lot of people assume that I've used samples to create the drum sounds in my mixes. I guess I subconsciously gravitate toward that sound even though samples are rarely used.

When I do use samples it's usually because the original sound is no longer in context with the rest of the song. It could be any number of reasons i.e. pitch, tone, etc.

If it is a pitch issue then I will pull in say, a snare sample and retune the original snare then match the sample to that pitch. The reason I include a supplemental sample is because after retuning the original snare the "formant" is no longer as pleasant. It helps to blend a combination of the original, an original mult, bottom snare, sample, maybe parallel compression.

[James Meeker]

First off, I'm not huge on sample replacement of drums. I've done it, and will do it again, but *NEVER* to make up for weak setup and engineering... which is inexcusable in my opinion.

Personally I use sample replacement for the following reasons:

1.) Make up for the wild dynamics of an inconsistent drummer.

2.) Make up for weak hitting on the part of the drummer.

3.) To push up the snare (sometimes toms) in volume when the drummer pitty-pats their drums, and *bashes* the crap out of their cymbals when the bleed gets too out of hand.

Those reasons, in my opinion, aren't very fun. They're necessary evils. However, I do find merit in the creative use of sample replacement such as:

4.) Cutting a sample of the drummer's snare and layering it in there so you can add top end without boosting hat/cymbals too much because of bleed. A pretty decent way to get a bright snare without the duress of your 'hat jumping center and having cymbals all over the place.

5.) Cutting a sample of the drummer's snare with a distant room mic--add that in there (including the few ms of delay from the distance). Makes the snare sound like it is really bouncing around the room 'Zep style.

6.) Adding in a sample of just the stick attack/front end of a snare hit. Reinforces the transients! Snap!

7.) Adding just the tail end (delay compensated to occur after the attack) of a snare hit for extra decay. Can be really neat when combined with a tight snare--let's you get a ring/decay you don't get with a piccolo snare but keep the bright smackiness of the front.

8.) Add a sample of a mic a foot or two off the center of the drum head--get that "slightly close" big snare sound without the cymbal bleed!

And so forth.....

[stagefright13]

One big problem with samples comes in the context of making an album.

Ya do the heavy samples on the heavy songs. And sounds great. But when you go to the lighter songs. Those samples do not fit! So you change to a different sample. Then the songs don't seem to gel together to me. (As an album)

But if you can get a great sound with mics the drummer can control the transformations between the songs and it glues the whole project together. Am I making any sense??

I mean if you are doing a bands 3 song demo and they are all in the same vien then samples will make it sound fine. And save time. But doing 14 songs for a CD may be a different thing altogether.

Truthfully the biggest problem with miking up a kit is the drummers ability and the quality of and tuning of his equipment. A great drummer WILL sound great with a minimal amount of fuss! And BTW give them a great headphone mix!!!!

[stagefright13]

Bulls hit what problem are ya having with your kick? Maybe someone can help you here. I don't have good samples on my site cause I got sued like 7 years ago so I don't post samples anymore... But I am sure you can get a great kick sound! I spend alot more time on snare myself...

[Farview]

I get a lot of mix projects that I didn't record. The drums may not have been recorded well and my instructions are to make the drums sound HUGE.

I also get a lot of business from bands that don't have the best equipment. A $300 drumset with 4 year old original heads on it isn't going to sound good no matter how much time I spend tuning them and moving the mics around.

Sometimes I get projects that were recorded over a long time, so the drum sounds from song to song aren't consistent. (different time, different setup, different kit, different drummer, etc...)

Other times, there just isn't time...

[anton foxx]

I'm looking fwd to micing my drums soon, when the room is finished.
I've only mic'ed them (my own kit) 3 times so far, but was pleasantly surprised with the results, even at this extremely inexperienced stage. I'm not saying they were mind blowing, but I was very encouraged with the (early) results.
I like the challenge of getting the best sound I can, but unlike a lot of you professional guys, I only operate on my own projects so far, (isn't my job) with no deadlines etc, so can perfectly understand using samples for whatever reason (client/poor sound/time contraints etc).

I'm sure in a perfect world we would all be fantastic drummers in great enviroments, etc but as one other poster said, reality can dictate otherwise, a lot of the time.

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

First off, I'm not huge on sample replacement of drums. I've done it, and will do it again, but *NEVER* to make up for weak setup and engineering... which is inexcusable in my opinion.

Personally I use sample replacement for the following reasons:

1.) Make up for the wild dynamics of an inconsistent drummer.

2.) Make up for weak hitting on the part of the drummer.

3.) To push up the snare (sometimes toms) in volume when the drummer pitty-pats their drums, and *bashes* the crap out of their cymbals when the bleed gets too out of hand.

Those reasons, in my opinion, aren't very fun. They're necessary evils. However, I do find merit in the creative use of sample replacement such as:

4.) Cutting a sample of the drummer's snare and layering it in there so you can add top end without boosting hat/cymbals too much because of bleed. A pretty decent way to get a bright snare without the duress of your 'hat jumping center and having cymbals all over the place.

5.) Cutting a sample of the drummer's snare with a distant room mic--add that in there (including the few ms of delay from the distance). Makes the snare sound like it is really bouncing around the room 'Zep style.

6.) Adding in a sample of just the stick attack/front end of a snare hit. Reinforces the transients! Snap!

7.) Adding just the tail end (delay compensated to occur after the attack) of a snare hit for extra decay. Can be really neat when combined with a tight snare--let's you get a ring/decay you don't get with a piccolo snare but keep the bright smackiness of the front.

8.) Add a sample of a mic a foot or two off the center of the drum head--get that "slightly close" big snare sound without the cymbal bleed!

And so forth.....

I love gearslutz - I never thought of doing some of these things. Cool.
I have always just worked with the original snare to make it sound as good as possible.
and if it didn't come up good then I would trigger a sample or multi-sample.

[Jack Ruston]

OK here's a couple more:

Sometimes the samples are really useful for triggering things like gates on the original source so that you can 100% predict the behaviour of the gate. Or for triggering an expander on the room mics in the same way.

J

[JPeters86]

Samples are awesome for putting your ideas in a DAW, but for the real thing I always record the real thing. Drummers can come up with fantastic little ideas that make your music sound so much better. Most likely you can't do that yourself with samples.

[dobz]

i record a lot of modern rock bands and i find they want snare and kick sounds that are so crushed that the cymbal bleed sounds "ugly" so now i get samples of there drums first and put them in. Now time alignin the kick and snare is "in" so i have considered recordin the cymbals seperate.Whats your thoughts on that and how do u go about it?
Cheers

[Ironklad Audio]

in theory, i much prefer to record and mix real drums...but in practice, i spend a lot more time programming drums and using samples and such

some of it has to do with my lack of a dedicated space to record drums right now...some of it also has to do with time constraints. i've been working on a solo project for the last few months, and have been programming all of the drums in my DAW myself. i tried to get a drummer to learn a few of the songs from the guitar tracks, but he did a shitty job of it...so even the stuff i recorded, i still had to go back and program. it would be nice to have time to go and jam the songs out for hours until we get it down, but i don't have time for that right now. it's nice to be able to sit up at 4:00 AM while the wife and kid are in bed, and knock out a couple verses or whatever.

another example: i recently recorded a pretty basic acoustic track for my wife's 17 y/o cousin...he wanted some pretty sparse drumming in the song - basically a kick, snare, and some hand drums. sure, we could've searched out some kid from his high school to come play drums on the track, and dug up a bongo set and recorded them and all that good shit - but when it comes down to it, it took a hell of a lot less time for me to pull up ezdrummer, program the kick and snare, and throw in some bongo loops.

on top of that, i can be assured that the sonic quality of the samples i used is going to be better than what i would've gotten by recording some amateur kid with a shitty kit in my shitty room.

[gsqd]

I'm pretty much with James and Farview on this one.

If the drums are tracked/produced under my or my engineers guidance there is never a need for any additional support from samples or any other trickery as we get it right - the old fashioned way.

If, however, I'm mixing a "to be released" project from someone else (as I'm doing right now) and it has the be slammin' I'll often pick, tune and blend a little kick, maybe snare and even at times toms. I'm talking 20% here as I'd always rather bust a nut to get the original drums as close as poss before reaching for crutches.

It really can make the difference and my mix clients often ask me how I got their drums to sound like the ones in my own production work. I guess Steven Slate and I have a similar approach to drums!

<GM>

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

Ok. I try really hard with mic placement. I'll get the kick sounding just how I think I want it. Snare is cracking. Sounds great. Then curiosity strikes and I fire up drumagog and listen to the Steven Slate snares blended with my snare. Hmm. That sounds nice. Let's try some kicks. Ooh, I love it so much. I should probably stop but I just can't. Until I can beat Steven Slate's mic placement, I'll probably continue to use samples. I guess that is admitting that I suck, but until I can do better...

You will NEVER do better because you never have to. You keep using samples

[Farview]

Originally Posted by dobz

Now time alignin the kick and snare is "in" so i have considered recordin the cymbals seperate.Whats your thoughts on that and how do u go about it?
Cheers

Back in the 80's I recorded the entire kit a separate instruments being overdubbed. One pass for the kick, one pass for the snare, one pass for the hat, one pass for the ride, one pass for the cymbals and one pass for the toms.

It ended up sounding like you think it would, a drum machine. The only thing keeping the performance together was the click track that the drummer had to be in perfect sync with. It was a long process that wasn't much fun and didn't have any vibe.

If cymbal bleed is a real problem:
1. Hit the drums harder. The louder you make the drums, the more you turn down the mics. The more you turn down the mics, the less cymbal was ends up in your mix.

2. Raise the cymbals. The farther away the cymbals are, the less they will get into the tom mics.

3. Play with the appropriate dynamics. Don't tap lightly on the snare drum while you are beating the crap out of an open hi-hat.

One of the reasons Bohnam sounded so good is because he 'mixed himself'. You could hear the ghost strokes because he backed off on the cymbals at the same time. This is the only way you can really get away with a 3 mic setup, the drummer has to mix himself while he is playing.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by Farview

One of the reasons Bohnam sounded so good is because he 'mixed himself'. You could hear the ghost strokes because he backed off on the cymbals at the same time. This is the only way you can really get away with a 3 mic setup, the drummer has to mix himself while he is playing.

Amen to that brother! It's so few and far between to find guys that realize this... and they always sound amazing on the kit.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

Ok. I try really hard with mic placement. I'll get the kick sounding just how I think I want it. Snare is cracking. Sounds great. Then curiosity strikes and I fire up drumagog and listen to the Steven Slate snares blended with my snare. Hmm. That sounds nice. Let's try some kicks. Ooh, I love it so much. I should probably stop but I just can't. Until I can beat Steven Slate's mic placement, I'll probably continue to use samples.

Um... you realize that more than just mic placement goes into making Steven's drums.... right?

Maybe you need to pay attention to the WHOLE THING (tuning, placement, compression, limiting, eq, 'verb, FX, context of mix) next time. Give that a shot and see how close you can get.

IMHO "sample replaced drums" is the "gated reverb" of today. I believe it will go out of style, be considered tacky and a sign of an amateur recording....

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by dobz

i record a lot of modern rock bands and i find they want snare and kick sounds that are so crushed that the cymbal bleed sounds "ugly" so now i get samples of there drums first and put them in. Now time alignin the kick and snare is "in" so i have considered recordin the cymbals seperate.Whats your thoughts on that and how do u go about it?
Cheers

I do this from time to time... works very well and drums come out sounding very clear... (this works especially well with the heavily compressed modern rock sound...)

However it is a waste of time if the drummer is not very good.


On a side note, Its hilarious how militant some people are about not using samples. It has been going on since at least 100 years before the birth of christ. Pros do it all the time (even on projects they have meticulously recorded).

It bothers me sometimes when people try to present their view as THE way instead of A way.

I do totally agree that the only way to not HAVE to use samples is to practice and take the time to do it right.

Just use your friggen ears! Turn knob sound good? Turn knob sound bad? Add sample sound good? Add sample sound bad?

[Lunatique]

I'm a drummer myself, and I as much as I LOVE playing drums, for recording I almost always use a good sample library for the sake of flexibility. MIDI notes are just so much more flexible to work with--I can later listen to the drum track and go "hmm, a couple of ghost notes placed right here would've really spiced things up" and actually a few clicks on the pianoroll later I have those ghost notes.

Today's drum libraries are so damn good there's very little they can't do--as long as you know how to play drums and how to use those libraries to their maximum effect.

[BLueROom]

For the stuff I record, I pretty much have to use samples to keep up with the sound of the other albums that these bands like to reference. I'd say 90% of the albums the kids like these days has some form of sample replacement.

[travisbrown]

I assume you mean replacing hits or programming drums rather than using premixed drum loops. I don't even know why it's a question, unless you are making an ideological query.

Like every other decision in the studio, when you want or need to do use samples, do it. Practicality should rule. Ideology is otherwise a luxury which is perfectly acceptable if you have the means.

Your reasons might be budgetary, logistical, sonic liability, gear limitation (drums or subsequent recording chain), it may be a whatever point simpler to replace hits rather than retrack, drummer's skill might be insufficient, vision for the mix has changed.... As far as programming goes, if the style affords, coupled with the above, then same rules apply.

If it's easier to track or retrack a kit, or you simply want to for ideological gratification when prudence would dictate otherwise, then do that.

I was surprised to hear that there were a lot of samples layered on the latest Amy Winehouse CD. On first listen, I was reveling at how simple and raw the drums sounded. Then I learned that the mono Dap Kings drum track was augmented quite a bit.

I also remember when Bryan Adams first Mutt Lange record came out, "Waking Up The Neighbours", Adams' drummer disclaimed his credit on the album. He said something like, "That's me hitting the drums, but that's not me playing." Probably one of the reasons it sounded so much like Def Leppard.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Farview

One of the reasons Bohnam sounded so good is because he 'mixed himself'. You could hear the ghost strokes because he backed off on the cymbals at the same time. This is the only way you can really get away with a 3 mic setup, the drummer has to mix himself while he is playing.

Well, this pretty much is evidence the de facto idea that better players are easier to record and sit in the mix better, on any instrument. I have to agree that few drummers play the whole kit like it's a single instrument rather than a collection of disparate boom-boom makers. This is one of the reason I generally like jazz and funk drumming more than rock. Jazz seems to demand this more so than rock to be an acceptable player. It's probably part and parcel with the environment and underlying ideologies of jazz ensemble playing.

And before you flame me, I know there are some mighty fine rock drummers who fall outside this generalization, Bonham being exemplary.