big band bass sound

[loaf]

How would you go about getting that big band bass sound found on stuff like It's raining again by scott walker, or even My way by Sinatra?

[tINY]

First, get a good brass section that plays together well.

Then put a couple of mics in front (spaced pair, usually - or maybe Deca Tree) in a decent room...




-tINY

Oh, Bass, not Brass...

That'll come down to placement - gotta get the mic and the bass in the right place. A big room helps.

[vernier]

If I remember correctly, the engineer in "Sessions With Sinatra" said he mic'd it with a Western Electric 639a.

[firby]

get an upright bass player with chops and a good rig.

[loaf]

ah...I'm not going to be recording a big band - just want to emulate that bass sound. Do you think it's partly because of the live room that it sounds like that?

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by firby

get an upright bass player with chops.....

....and put it through a nice mic/pre and don't eq in any bottom... let that beautifully played instrument be...funny thing with well played music...it seems to mix itself if you take some care micing it up....Sinatra had the best playing behind him...and was truly a master at his craft...throw in an engineer that knows enough to "leave well enough alone" and helps make the players feel comfy on the floor....in situations like that eq can become unnecessary (or play a minor role).

Nick

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by loaf

ah...I'm not going to be recording a big band - just want to emulate that bass sound. Do you think it's partly because of the live room that it sounds like that?

it's also the relationship to the other instruments...I don't think trying get that sound when tracking a band like Green Day will work...I don't understand the application...what are you recording?

[loaf]

I'm not recording anything in particular, I just want to get that bass sound because I love it. So you think it'd have to be an amp miked up rather than direct - I mean, what bass did those guys use? P Bass?, what amp? I did see something about big bands having electric bass and stand up playing together, but it must be subtle cos it always sounds electric to me. I think John Paul Jones from zep played on a lot of the scott walker and other stuff in the sixties, maybe I should email him

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by loaf

I'm not recording anything in particular, I just want to get that bass sound because I love it. So you think it'd have to be an amp miked up rather than direct - I mean, what bass did those guys use? P Bass?, what amp? I did see something about big bands having electric bass and stand up playing together, but it must be subtle cos it always sounds electric to me. I think John Paul Jones from zep played on a lot of the scott walker and other stuff in the sixties, maybe I should email him

ummm,,,,,really it's a lot about the relationship..try to understand that.

[Unclenny]

For upright bass sound with an electric....maybe a little muting?

SoundClick artist: Lenny and the Scapers - Ballad Rock

[vernier]

I'm not recording anything in particular, I just want to get that bass sound because I love it. So you think it'd have to be an amp miked up rather than direct - I mean, what bass did those guys use? P Bass?, what amp? I did see something about big bands having electric bass and stand up playing together, but it must be subtle cos it always sounds electric to me. I think John Paul Jones from zep played on a lot of the scott walker and other stuff in the sixties, maybe I should email him

No ..you can't get an electric to sound or behave like a standup. Standup rules in spades. But if you don't play upright, then the next best thing I've found is a hollow body through a tube DI, but you need to know the finger technique for standup, which is a hole other thing from electric.

[tINY]

Gotta have the upright - no frets - Bridge over a hollow body with a sound peg - plucked up near the end of the fret board - smooth wound strings....

Really nothing like an electric bass. I've heard stuff simmilar, but not the same on fretless basses - the attack is wrong.



-tINY

[donnie7]

That Big Band Bass sound you are looking for is the Holy Grail of modern recording. I have been researching and trying to recreate this sound for over 20+ years! It would be very difficult to achieve with samples and such today. But you could get it with players who are familiar with each other. It's a combination of the instrument, player chops/technique and the room. Oh the room. That's what's missing in today's recordings. Live ambient space. And that's the only way you'll ever get that type of sound. It's the blend between the arrangement, players who are familiar with each other and the room. NO way around it. I have hired several arrangers/musicians from Berklee College of Music who are tops in their craft to recreate that sound. Workable, not really close. But usable. Took a Big Band 40's instrumental and imported it into Logic and played a new sequence right on top of it note for note. Sounds awesome. But it's not the real thing. The Arrangement, Skilled players, Room and Engineering. Got to have it all for the romance to come alive. Best Wishes in your quest. With Respect, Donnie Dixon aka DonSonic from The Boston Producers Group/Boston.

[loaf]

no, I meant they apparently have a stand up bass and an electric bass playing together, same notes - relationship to other instruments, sure - but that's not too relevant on something like It's raining today, there's hardly anything there except the bass at the beginning. I want that sound. Maybe it is the room

[Bob Olhsson]

Arrangement, player's touch, instrument and strings.

When you've got all four, it's like falling off a log and amazing how many different mikes sound just fine.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by loaf

no, I meant they apparently have a stand up bass and an electric bass playing together, same notes - relationship to other instruments, sure - but that's not too relevant on something like It's raining today, there's hardly anything there except the bass at the beginning. I want that sound. Maybe it is the room

If you're referring to the 'blossoming/pillowy' sound of the bass, room sound is def. a part of it. Spill into the other mics is probably what is causing the smooth, deep bass sound...

FWIW, try both a DI split and mic the upright's bass amp, but with a bit of distance in a large'ish' room (a few feet, maybe more) - that'll give some spread to it's sound - The amp should not be a heavily coloured one - as soft and neutral as possible. Mix in the DI track for some attack/bite to taste.

The most important thing for the bass to sound great is to watch/listen to phase, so check the 2 sources in mono often to make sure things aren't wonky.

My .02 c

[loaf]

I see - it's the Holy Grail, no wonder I have so much trouble with it - thanks all for your input - I wonder if part of it is the reverb that seems to be over the entire mix of a lot of those recordings...

[Han]

In the 40's and 50's people were playing 4/4 basses with thick gut strings and these were loud.

There's a thread at Steve Remotes board about upright recording, it may be of any help. I've found out that every upright player needs another approach.

Last gig I had was with a traditional jazz (dixieland) band and a 30 persons gospel choir, all in one room and all together at once.

The upright player stood next to the drummer and I had placed an old AKG D12E at one feet of the bridge. Little bleed and a very reasonable sound, sometimes a condenser isn't the best choice, depends on the circumstances you're in.

Upright bass is one of the more difficult instruments, it's big so in order to catch it well you need some distance, which is a problem because of the bleed.

The D12E is very rejective though.