Metallica Black Album Mic Technique Help Me!

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by BrettPortzer

Why is the graphic section blurred out?

because the amp settings contain my secret JUJU power which cannot be disclosed

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

the Voodoo Labs Amp Switcher, looks more in my price bracket, any body got experience with it, how does it compare to similar items?

thanks Sam

[smy1]

Last time I checked, 90% of Hetfield's tone came out of his hands ... so I hope you grew up playing Metallica A LOT and using a similar playing technique, cause otherwise it'll just not work. Regardless of what you use ...

[BrettPortzer]

So, you are asking for help in replicating another dudes famous tone, but hiding your own?

haha!

nice.

Originally Posted by SMCCUNE

because the amp settings contain my secret JUJU power which cannot be disclosed

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by smy1

Last time I checked, 90% of Hetfield's tone came out of his hands ... so I hope you grew up playing Metallica A LOT and using a similar playing technique, cause otherwise it'll just not work. Regardless of what you use ...

Yeah I know what you mean, but luckily for me....

I was singing enter sandman when I was a little kid before I even knew who metallica were, it was the most awesome guitar sound I`d ever heard, then later after I took up guitar, I stumbled across this black tab book and there were the immortal words exit light and I was like this is the band I used to sing to, my love of Metallica just increased from there. I grew up playing metallica. I`m not one of these youtube noobs who has £1`000`000 of gear then plays like a 2 year old, I earned my chops and waited till I could play before I got into the Gear trip, I`ve been a guitar teacher full time for 5 years, showing other peepz `tallica songs

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by BrettPortzer

So, you are asking for help in replicating another dudes famous tone, but hiding your own?

haha!

nice.

yeah tis AWESOME LOL

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

It's obvious, he doesn't want people to steal his uber black album tone. That'd be like giving away a bbq'ers famous rub recipe.

that is correct!

Sam

[eligit]

purely out of curiosity....why do you want to spend tons of money to duplicate someone else's guitar tone?

the best possible outcome would be "wow, dude that almost sounds as good as...."

no diss intended....just curious.

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by eligit

purely out of curiosity....why do you want to spend tons of money to duplicate someone else's guitar tone?

the best possible outcome would be "wow, dude that almost sounds as good as...."

no diss intended....just curious.

no offense taken

I have never heard a guitar tone I like as much as on the black album (Bolt-Throwers ...for victory has great tone, but wouldn`t suit the material I`m writing lol), so I didn`t see the point spending a fortune buying random equipment and hoping it sounded as good.

Instead I can start in the right ballpark for the tone I want then run with it, takes out a lot of guesswork.

It saves spending a fortune on gear which is fashionable but overpriced cheese like rectifiers or vintage marshalls, they both sound fizzy compared to vintage mesas, also my setup is relatively cheap compare a 2nd hand marshall bv cab with a new mesa 4x12 (uk prices lol), also sm57 and md 421 are like cheapo mics, also its an investment, once I have it setup I can just record as many albums as I feel like. I spent years getting by with a bc rich bronze series with emg 81 into a marshall jcm 800 2210 and its a relief to be playing through my new setup makes me happy every time I play, guitar is my life, its my job why not enjoy it, whos to say Hetfield and Petrucci have sole right to enjoy guitar awesomeness and no-one else can?

Its a fun journey too I feel like indiana jones digging for tiny snippets of information, and getting a little closer every week.


....a more realistic outcome, people would probably not even realise it sounded like `tallica and would just be "thats some seriously sweet tone dude"


sounds AWESOME and in the right ballpark with just the mkIIc+ but still unique because of the lack of multi-amping, I could just go with this tone, its perfect for the kind of material my friends and I record, but I`m tempted to go the whole hog and multi-amp because the thickness, sustain and bottom of the black album is just awe-inspiring

also I feel its a guitar sound I can utilize, no-ones used that tone for 17 years, Hetfield has dropped that ball, so I want to run with it, theres all this 60/70s retro crap about like lets put a leslie on this or whatever so whats odd about wanting to sound like a thrash band from 1991 haha!

not a very concise reply but I`m knackered

thanks Sam

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by eligit

purely out of curiosity....why do you want to spend tons of money to duplicate someone else's guitar tone?

I figured out to get the same guitar, amps, cabs and mikes as used on the Black Album at low 2nd hand prices the very least it would cost you would be £10`000 just for the rhythm guitar sound hahaha, not including anything to record onto lol


who knows how much that stuff cost `tallica new back in the day, but hey if you are making a $1`000`000 album that is small beans


I`m a cheapskate so I might have to see if I can borrow stuff for the final recording :(


on the plus side I`m learning a lot yay

thanks guys

Sam

[sleestack]

People are ******** about gear. They don't use their ears. They just want to know if it was made in the same year as the gear their musical hero's gear was made. There are some amazing sounding amps out there, but people just can't accept it because its not "Vintage". I'm sorry, but vintage marshalls paved the way for the birth of rock and roll and that isn't good enough for you?

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by sleestack

People are ******** about gear. They don't use their ears. They just want to know if it was made in the same year as the gear their musical hero's gear was made. There are some amazing sounding amps out there, but people just can't accept it because its not "Vintage". I'm sorry, but vintage marshalls paved the way for the birth of rock and roll and that isn't good enough for you?

I use my ears and my head, not every amp is made equal ...even the `same` model

but when you find a good one, it will have a certain quality or `voice` unique to that model

there are some good modern amps made, but not for the sound I want. Current amps tend to either cater for a low gain 60`s, 70`s retro market or a 90`s high gain sound or solid state `modelling` of both lol. I`m into clear harmonic rich valve distortion, which was all the rage in the 80`s, as that was the trend, those are the amps which cater to that sound. That sound is NOT the be all and end all of tone, but for what I do IT IS!


I would love to have a factory fresh mesa mkIV, I wouldn`t care that it wasn`t vintage, because it was still designed with a particular sound in mind (pre-mega fuzz sludge gain)

I bought the 2210 when I was young but it isn`t the sound I`m looking for, I got it because they were out of fashion and cheap but what I really wanted was a 2203. I have heard some awesome recordings done with vintage Marshall JMP, plexis, 2203 but they were obviously using good examples of said amps.

I was tired so what I said is weird, this is more how I feel ... There are lots of overpriced vintage amps out there which aren`t worth it and Mesa rectifiers are overpriced. I`ve heard some awesome Rectifier sounds on record (Soundgarden-Superunknown, Lockup), but the bands took ages to find a setting which worked, with a good Mark series head it will sound awesome pretty much however you set it up.

Of course people are ******** about gear...this is Gearslutz forum!

I rest my case

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

anyway bringing this thread back on topic.....

I have a big shot amp splitter and a third marshall cab on the way. I`ll see how close I can get with what I have then and post some examples.

the info I still recquire is

a)how was the marshall layered in?

b)does anyone have signal chain diagrams for hetfileds live setup (esp from the black album tours) or any info/photos from old guitar mags etc?

many thanks Sam

[SMCCUNE]

First Example!

you can listen to my first attempt at replicating the black album rhythm sound here.

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom

converting it to mp3 has crapped up the sound dfegad
I`m going to have to download a 6 band parametric eq vst to whip the post mic eq into shape!

also recording with the master volume higher would help, but I didn`t want to destroy my neighbours today, maybe next week lol

I`ll record more examples as I get closer

thanks

Sam

[Audio Hombre]

well i can pretty well guarantee that they didn't have the cab's right up against a wall.

lol @ hiding the graphic settings. funniest "artist" thing i've seen in awhile.thanks for that. as if peeps b wantin' to steal your settings. it's like when nugent plugged into van halens rig and was disappointed to find that he still sounded like nugent, and not halen. it doesn't freekin matter!

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by Audio Hombre

well i can pretty well guarantee that they didn't have the cab's right up against a wall.

lol @ hiding the graphic settings. funniest "artist" thing i've seen in awhile.thanks for that. as if peeps b wantin' to steal your settings. it's like when nugent plugged into van halens rig and was disappointed to find that he still sounded like nugent, and not halen. it doesn't freekin matter!

Well I can 100% guarantee that I didn`t record with my marshall cabs against the wall!

I sound like me whatever I play thru

but.....

for some reason I sound a hell of a lot heavier playing thru my rig than I do playing a rockwood with single coils thru an axtech 10 watt with an 8"

basically I wanted to learn about guitar production, so I decided to learn from what I PERSONALLY considered to be the pinaccle of metal tone, this is my magical journey of self discovery!

Sam

[SMCCUNE]

I just bumped into one of my friends who lives like 7 doors down and he told me he could hear me recording this morning

I had headphones on so I didn`t realise how loud it was, 2 valve amps oooh yeh !

hmmm wonder how 3 would sound.....

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom here is my test run!

Sam

[sleestack]

I sympathize wanting to get that perfect sound. Ive done it myself

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by sleestack

I sympathize wanting to get that perfect sound. Ive done it myself

thank you, somebody who understands!, do you have any examples recorded!

I find it weird that some people find it so hard to understand, its like they would have preferences for certain mikes or desks but as soon as it comes to guitar sound they are like UUURRRHHH it doesn`t make a difference its all about your playing..............surely there is something called tone, and frequency response..............I don`t care if I sound like Sam playing thru Jamez rig, it will still have the tone and freq response I like

also Kirk has many times in the studio tried to recreate Gary Moore`s tone, but he sounds like Kirk playing thru Gary Moores rig and whats wrong with that!

Once I have the tone sorted I`m going to use it to play my own stuff like myself!

I`m going to give up on multi-amping for a while, its fun but distracting from my 1st goal....

I`ve realised I need to get the MkIIc+ micing 100% right to naturally eq the sound, because I can`t fix it in the mix with eq, then I can hear what frequencies are still missing with it mic`ed correctly and try and put them in with tiny amounts of post mic eq.

my 2nd Marshall cab will be here next week which should help, I`ll make a 2nd attempt next week with just the MkIIc+ thru 2 Marshall cabs!

many thanks

Sam

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom my 1st attempt!

[Never1]

Aren't the guitars on that album heavily multitracked?

As in, there could be as much as 4-6 separate guitars playing the exact same part but recorded with less distortion, perfect intonation and timing? once they're combined it just sounds thick and huge, and does something sonically that 1-2 crunchier guitars could never do?

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by Never1

Aren't the guitars on that album heavily multitracked?

As in, there could be as much as 4-6 separate guitars playing the exact same part but recorded with less distortion, perfect intonation and timing? once they're combined it just sounds thick and huge, and does something sonically that 1-2 crunchier guitars could never do?

NO!

you are thinking of Master of Puppets.

Sam

[sleestack]

Originally Posted by SMCCUNE

thank you, somebody who understands!, do you have any examples recorded!

No, but I spent years trying to figure out what my favorite artist used for a bass synth on a certain track. So I "get" just having to know. Once you find out you tend to ask yourself. How can I be unique now? It is a valuable lesson learning the intricacies of how something is made, but you can lose yourself in the process. Still, always good for learning

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by sleestack

No, but I spent years trying to figure out what my favorite artist used for a bass synth on a certain track. So I "get" just having to know. Once you find out you tend to ask yourself. How can I be unique now? It is a valuable lesson learning the intricacies of how something is made, but you can lose yourself in the process. Still, always good for learning

cool cool

yeah I`ve learnt a lot about micing, eq, phase cancelling in a very short space of time, its been a great crash course.

Sam

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom my 1st attempt!

[SMCCUNE]

I`ve just posted my 2nd example here!

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom

This time I was just concentrating on getting the mkIIC+ part of the tone closer rather than multiamping straight away.

this is just the MkIIc+ through 1 cab with 2 mics on it.

the first example was 2 amps through 2 cabs with 3 mics

Still needs work but its getting there!

Sam

[AntillesSound]

Originally Posted by SMCCUNE

Metallica Black Album Mic Technique Help Me!

After reading Flemming Rasmussen`s notes for MOP and Justice which are the most AWESOME thing ever I was inspired to try recreating the Black album tone!

By combining these notes and some personal research into the Black album I have got the AMP tone pretty close however......

I would like to know the correct mic technique to get the main tone on the Black album

my setup is as follows mahogany Emg loaded guitar into Mesa Boogie Mk IIc+ which will then go to 2 Marshall 4x12!

All CONSTRUCTIVE help in recreating this tone is welcomed!

many thanks Sam

where are his notes? id really like to read them. those records got me into recording/production too.

[SNJ Studio]

Just read that thread on spending 23K on gear for Hetfields tone...:

Originally Posted by Tone Monster
Ok, so I've spent $23,894.23 on gear and fooled around and NAILED Hetfield's tone...

you could have just spent $400 on a POD

LAUGHED MY TITS OFF

Seriously though, POD isn't bad for one of the layers everyone is talking about.

[SMCCUNE]

Originally Posted by SNJ Studio

Just read that thread on spending 23K on gear for Hetfields tone...:

Originally Posted by Tone Monster
Ok, so I've spent $23,894.23 on gear and fooled around and NAILED Hetfield's tone...

you could have just spent $400 on a POD

LAUGHED MY TITS OFF

Seriously though, POD isn't bad for one of the layers everyone is talking about.

yeah I read that one a while back and....

LAUGHED MY ASS OFF!

I`ve read people elsewhere talk about using the pod for Black tone, I don`t remember there being a 4 marshalls with the right mics preset
thats even if you can get the pre and power amp sound, then what about multi-amping lol

Unfortunately theres no substitute for a wall of 12" speakers pushing air!

On the other hand I`ve been thinking of DI`ing a pre like Studio pre and GX 700 to approximate the other layered amps while keeping the volume within reasonable limits, I am apprehensive though as last time I deviated from doing things the hard way or used solid state, even in small quantities, it manked up the tone, I`m thinking everything has to be real pure valve tone and cranked

heres my 2nd attempt at black album tone (minus multi-amping)

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom

thanks Sam

[SMCCUNE]

heres my 3rd attempt at black album rhythm tone...

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom


my mic placement needs a lot of work and experimentation, but the guitar sound itself only needs a couple of tiny tweaks and a bit more volume

this is the MkIIc+ thru one cab with 2 mics

once I`ve got the tweaks and mic placement sorted, I can start looking at multi-amping again yay!

thanks Sam

[SMCCUNE]

Here is my 4th attempt at Black Album tone

MySpace.com - mycomicalromance - Norwich, UK - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/mycomicalromancecom


I have one question does anyone know how close Randy Staub/Bob Rock placed the close mics to the baffle/speakers?

I just need one more tweak to the basic sound, then the rest will be up to better mike placement and a bit more volume, then I think the mkIIc+ bit of the sound will be nailed!


Please tell me what you think!

many thanks Sam

[Kadden Heart]

don't know much about the GTR tone.

but the vh1 classic album thing,...there's a scene where they're talking about "these larger than life guitars fit through two speakers"

hetfield palm mutes the D,...it shook the ns-10's
sounded so beautifully open, but thick,...

wish i could've been there.