Quiet possible with AC & Heat? Need to Heat/AC new detached studio.

[betsy]

I have a new detached studio/workshop. It's a 15x20 one room studio. I need to heat and air condition it without breaking the bank.

My main concern is "QUIET"! Can anyone recommend the best type of heat (non electric) and/or AC for this?
Anyone using the Empire LP heater?

I can only go about 1k for each.

[Midlandmorgan]

Depends on where you are, I think...The split systems that feature the noisy stuff in a separate unit outside, the quiet stuff mounted on the wall, are reported to work well...

I've read that the key is high volume/low velocity, if that means anything.

As for heat (for the 15-20 days a year we need it...), we use a couple of oil-filled electric heaters..when you first turn on, they may pop a few times, but after that totally silent, as there are no fans, blowers, or anything like that...

[betsy]

I should have mentioned I need heat 5 months out of the year and air conditioning only about 1-2 months. I rarely use it though, it would be for the real bad hot humid days only.

[Stick]

What about your gear? That's often why I need A/C, even when it's colder outside.

[lucey]

HVAC or a Split System

Split is cheaper ... $2000 installed

[not_so_new]

Originally posted by betsy
I should have mentioned I need heat 5 months out of the year and air conditioning only about 1-2 months. I rarely use it though, it would be for the real bad hot humid days only.

Well, when you close the room off to isolate the sound transfer you are obviously stopping the exchange of heat in the space to the exterior. In a bigger room this heat build up is not as noticeable because the heat collects in the rafters and dissipates into the room slowly rising the ambient temperature much slower.

This is not the case in a small tightly sealed room (i.e. sound transfer protected). You are going to find even in cooler climates that you will use air more often than not. Computers, consoles and rack gear produce allot of heat (and I mean ALLOT). Add a few active musicians playing drums, guitars or even just singing and you can have a heat problem, I know.

My studio is in a smaller space, it is on the outside wall of our house. I have no heat in the room and while the gear is off the room is COLD in the winter. After about 30 minutes with the rack on and people in the room I am sweating (no AC). I wish I had a way to get AC in the room but there is not much I can do in my case. If you can get something like split system I would HIGHLY recommend it. Even if you think you are only going to use it for a few months you might be surprised.

Another thing to keep in mind. Large temperature swings can cause problems with condensation, you are going to want to keep that room temp as even as you can.

I've read that the key is high volume/low velocity, if that means anything.

High volume low velocity is to keep noise levels down. High volume means the AC unit can dump large amounts of cool air and low velocity is so the air does not make an in rush noise when it enters the room. HVAC units for studios tend to be built to "dump" air instead of "forcing" it into the room. Hope this helps..

[Dave Martin]

Umm, the big problem is that doing it right is expensive - (I cut some corners and did some of the work myselg, and the HVAC for my room still came in at over $10K. And doing it wrong is fairly pointless.

Ooh - I just thought of something. You could do it the way that certain studios have done ti for years - get whatever HVAC you can afford, and if it's too noisy, just cut it off when you're recording.

[betsy]

Can anyone explain the difference and advantages of the HVAC and Split systems? If you haven't noticed, I'm a girl and have no idea what anyone is talking about. I'm exited to learn!

[sharpeleven]

I am no expert eighter. From what I understand HVAC stands for those big and bulky installations that you find in bigger locations with ducts for air flow. A split system is much like your regular AC (the one everybody puts in their windows) but the air intake and output is separated from the noisy part of the unit. There are several configurations possible with split systems and the distance to the main unit can be as much as 15 meters (45 Feet?) connected by a 3 inch tube. You can cool several rooms with one main unit. Hope this helps....

[TER]

Any system that handles Heating/Ventilation/Air Conditioning is an HVAC system. The size of the system doesn't change the terminology. Some folks just call it "air handling." A split system sounds like the right idea for the room in question, and like Dave said, if it's too noisy for tracking, just turn it off for a while. Beyond cooling the room, some fresh air is very helpful for long sessions...helps keep everyone awake and productive.

Check out the Mitsubishi Mr.Slim Split AC system.

-tom

[lucey]

Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning for studios consists of oversized ducts with internal baffles resulting in very 'quiet air' for all seasons. This is a high volume, low noise version of what you have in a home, more or less.

MiniSplits or Split Systems are not only easy to install in small rooms and add ons, they have no duct system and are generally 40dbA or less ... that's pretty quiet.

The outdoor unit is smaller but similar to HVACs component, while the indoor is a small unit that mounts on a wall .... as an example size: 7" x 36" x 2" for 12,000 BTU

So the quiet factor, the ease of install as compared to a whole new system (a 3" hole is all you need) and the fact that you can move a split with you when you move, makes them an interesting option.

Please see the link in my first post for more info on Splits.

here's some prices on single room units ... two room units also available by GE, Frederich and others.

[Ren Man]

Betsy,
HVAC stands for Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning. There are several factors you want to take into consideration when planning an HVAC system for your recording studio.
1) Noise. The noise generated by the mechanical parts of the system (i.e. blowers, condenser fans, compressors, burners etc.). The aforementioned noise generated by the air being discharged from the face of the registers, and noise contamination between rooms or to/from the outside.
2) Ventilation. Mechanical codes require that certain percentages of fresh air be introduced into buildings. The actual percentages vary depending on usage these are based on specified "air changes per hour". This fresh air is intended to provide fresh breathing air for the building occupants and to dilute indoor air pollutants. Ever been in a poorly ventilated room with a crowd of people? After a while everyone's yawning and losing concentration. This is caused by elevated the levels of CO2 (carbon dioxide) put off by people breathing- not the optimum environment for creative thinking. There are plenty of other noxious chemicals found in high concentrations indoors. Construction materials, carpets, furnishings, surface finishes, paints etc. all out-gas chemicals, creating higher levels of pollution indoors than what is found in most outdoor locations that are considered bad. Indoor air quality, sick building syndrome and mold are the big buzzwords today- and justifiably so.
3) Comfort. The best designed systems provide precise control over temperature and humidity and do it so well that most people don't even notice that they are on.
Most recording studios are insulated and sealed like a thermos-bottle so that, most of the time cooling is required (even in the winter). I've engineered an "Economizer" into my system, which diverts a percentage of the cold outdoor air into the system instead of running the outdoor unit (the condensing unit) in the winter. Beware that humidity has to be taken into account when doing this. This is called enthalpy and is beyond the scope of this discussion.

The so-called "mini-splits" (Mitsubishi makes a line called Mr. Slim www.mr.slim.com) are manufactured in cooling or cooling/heat pump configurations. The best way to describe these units is that they are like a common window air conditioner except the compressor and condenser fan (the nosiest parts) are located outside the structure (usually sitting on a concrete pad on the ground). All that remains of the "indoor unit" is the evaporator coil and blower. This is much quieter than a window air conditioner but isn't quiet enough to leave running while you are recording.

Most pro studios employ the high volume, low velocity systems previously mentioned. These also are referred to as split systems; meaning that the furnace/air handler are located in one location (utility closet, mechanical room, basement etc.) and the condensing unit is located elsewhere (on a pad outside the building envelope. The average residential furnace and air conditioner would work except for the mechanical noise from the equipment and the sound of the air being discharged from the registers. To overcome this we design the ductwork larger that it would normally be (this slows the air down in the ductwork and at the discharge points (i.e. the registers). Ducts can also be constructed of different materials (such as fiberglass ductboard) which not only have thermal insulating qualities but also attenuate sound (specifically, sound coming from the mechanical equipment and sounds being transferred between rooms.

Ideally you want a system that keeps you comfortable, provides an ample supply of fresh air and is totally quiet.
I'm not familiar with the Empire heater. However, if it is a gas fired appliance located in the same space as you there will unavoidably be noise; both from the burners and from the fan (if it is equipped with one). You MUST also make provision for combustion air to be supplied to these types of units. (the exception would be the so-called direct-vent type, which draw their combustion air from the outdoors and discharge the flue gas tot the outdoors through a concentric vent). Be warned that any gas appliance can emit CO (carbon monoxide)- a tasteless odorless gas that binds to the hemoglobin in the blood and can cause injury or death by asphyxiation.
I DO NOT recommend the so-called "ventless" heaters because they still discharge flue gas- only into the air you are breathing.
Don't kill the messenger but the old adage "You get what you pay for" still stands true.
Hope this helps.

[Ren Man]

Betsy,
The link I provided for the Mitsubishi Mini Split is incorrect. My Apologies.
The correct link is. http://www.mrslim.com/home.asp

Betsy,
Go with a split system. Have a local A/C contractor put it in.

Clearly you are looking for a realistic budget so try to have the contractor do the following.

I did HVAC for 10 years and built my studio with the following additions and it is great. I am sure a 20K install would be better but, my system works great and the A/C runs a lot, as I am in Tejas.

1. Go split system
2. Do not have the condenser (outside piece) placed on an adjacent wall to any recording space. If you have to, get it placed as far away from the wall as possible and build some small wall between it and the structure. Cinder blocks filled with sand do a great job at redirecting the noise. basically get this thing away from you.
3. have both the liquid line AND the suction line insulated and be sure neither press up against any part of the building coming in to the airhandler. This is real important where the lines go over the top plate of your walls. This can transfer an awful hissing niose if missed.
4. Have the furnace hung with vibration elimiators from the roof beams. Do not have anything resting on the ceiling.
5. I chose an Airhandler w/o heat. You could get one with gas heat.
6. Get an AH that is oversized so that med speed on the fan moves the same cfm as the correct size on high. Your HVAC contractor should understand this. If not, find a new contractor.
7. Have the contractor size out the ductwork(flex) as normal. Tell the contractor that on addition to this you would like 12' of duct 25% (in inches) larger added to the diffusor end and a diffusor this size put in. Example, if he had an 8" run to a grill, you want 12' of 10" added to the end and a 10" diffusor box on the end. This 12' will work as your sound trap by running it in an "S" pattern.
8. Do not use grills. The insulated diffusor boxes are nice and black inside and usually look great left alone. Grills are noisy.
9. To control air flow have dampeners placed at the plenum. his is how you will get the balance right.
10. if you have a grill that blows straight down. I do in the CR. Place a 2'x4' piece of peg board under it 4"-5" off the cieling for disspursion (?).
11. Have all the attic space insulated with the paper facing in. This will absorb some of the niose before it creeps out.
12. I built a panel under my furnace that is about twice the foot print of the furnace of 3 layers of 3/4" MDF and it is laying on the ceiling, floating on pieces of a cut up mouse pad (neoprene).

For my heat I use these great electric heaters that look like radiators. I went through a few to find one with a quite thermostat but, the heat is great and no noise other than the light click of the thermostat. This prevents my AH from coming on at all and one in each room works good. But, Hey...I am in Texas so not much need for heat.

This may all sound a little iffy but, this is all based on my real world experiences and my system is super quite and works great.

Not sure if you can keep to the 2K budget here but, you should be close. Under 3K I would say if you have the same or less space than I.

If you want to talk to an expert call my old boss Sam. he owns A/C Service and they can be reached @ 972-840-8664. He is an old hat at making it work with a budget and will be more than happy to share OR give ideas......as long as he has the time.
Summer in Texas can be real busy for him.


Best of luck

If you have any questions for me davidpasch@comcast.net is my email. I will not be following this post.


David

[betsy]

Wow! You guys have ben great! What an education. Thanks so much!

I'll need time to absorb all of this. I don't mind if I have to go upwards 3k, seems worth it. Anyone know the costs involved in heating with a HVAC as opposed to a propane monitor type heater? I would think the HVAC would be much higher. I need heat more than I do AC most of the year.

[lucey]

Originally posted by betsy
I need heat more than I do AC most of the year.

Where do you live?

Have you been in the room yet with people, and the gear on all day ... it will warm up.

I'd think unless you are in Alaska you'll need AC for a few months at least.

[betsy]

I'm sure I'll need it at last 2 months and probably 3 and for those times when the gear is heating up with others in the room. I plan on heating and air conditioning the room. Thanks again!

[Dave Martin]

No one's mentioned another option to a split system; my HVAC is all outside, and only the ductwork (well, and the wires to the thermostat) come into the building itself. From the unit, a large duct comes to an air mixer. From the ain handler ducts goe to each vent in the ceiling. The returns are in each room, and those go back out to the HVAC unit.

The reason I would skip the package units (all outside) is they require large openings to the outside world in comparison to split systems.

They also cost more.

They are a valid option.

Betsy, The group could prob help more with the details of your structure.

Home? commercial? Roof type? Exterior finish? Attic/closet space for furnace/AH?


David

[Ren Man]

Energy costs vary in different geographical locations. Look on your Electric and propane bills or call your suppliers and see if there is a 'cost per therm' figure available. Naturally the efficiency of the gas fired equipment will factor in. Electric resistance heating is 100% efficient at the point of use; heat pumps will have a SEER rating. Talk to a reputable local HVAC contractor- they should have a handle on energy costs in your area. In my part of the country the operating cost of propane and electric are pretty close.

"cost of propane and electric are pretty close"

Wow!

In Texas, electric heat is a big no-no as the cost is 4-5 times higher for electric. That is if you are buying. Builders still put it in everywhere as the neighborhood build out is cheaper w/o gas infrastructure.

Makes sense since so much gas is harvested here.

Did not think about that one.

Good point!

I will point out that Heat Pumps have higher lifetime maint cost as they are more complex machines. They also tend to have parts that are not a readily avail.

That is....here in Tejas.

D