Vintage bass tone.

[lakeshorephatty]

I'm really feeling love for the vintage bass tone lately.

I've been putting some foam between the pickup and the bridge of my old pbass lately and plugging direct, moving the mute to taste whenever i need a bass track.

I think i'm getting somewhere with the tone. I've attached a sample. What do you think?

I'm really enjoying these kinds of muted tones. A La most things from the 70's, serge gainsbourg, floyd, mowtown etc.

somehow the mute makes things deeper, probably because it muffles the highs and brings out the attack.

My di is a little labs IBP for this track.

Anyone else love the vintage tones?

sorry for the crappy mp3 quality, its all i have here, and this is a rough mix from last night with just bass drums and piano. need to check the phasing on the piano and drum overheads.. blah blah blah you get it.

Russell

[PRobb]

P Bass + Heavy flatwound strings = vintage goodness!

[lakeshorephatty]

or in my case, seems to be.. pbass + 15 year old roundwound strings with no life left in them = vintagey style goodness.. :P

[Mr. PC]

Maybe you already know this, but I was surprised when I learned that the motown bass was DI only. I always thought there was some classic B-15 kind of amp involved, but the bass and the guitars were recorded direct.

PC

[manthe]

I've always only love that style and tone. We pulled it off last week with a 1968 Fender Bassman head, a 4x15 Fender cab, a 1976 Fender Jazz and 1 EV RE20 in to an old Shure M67 mic preamp....perfection!

[byrd62au]

I think you could have recorded James Jamerson with anything and it would sound good.

[phillysoulman]

1962 Fender P Bass, flatwound strings.
Never change the strings until you break one.
Ampeg B 15 amp.
If you want yo can d.i. to for a bit of controlled attack.
..oh yeah..and a GREAT bass player who knows his $hit

[camerondye]

1. The ampeg vst is pretty good if you are looking for a ITB solution.
2. I would start mixing direct with a mic'd amp.
3. Keep working between picking and fingerstyle for your sound
4. Throw a sponge or towel by the bridge under the strings to "mute" the strings
5. Keep some older strings on the bass
6. Use a Low Pass Filter wisely
7. Try Flat wound strings
8. Bigger room sound
9. Distortion
10. Listen to a lot of old Tower of Power

[brill bedroom]

Ah, finally a thread where I can make a contribution. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying different options. the aforementioned P bass with flats never fails, but I've found particularly good luck with short scale and hollowbody basses. Right now, my favorite bass to record is a 60's Hofner violin bass with black tapewound strings- the combo McCartney used on Let It Be.

Compared to most modern bass tones, what I'm going for is a limited frequency range with most of the high end rolled off and a strong fundamental tone. I also am generally not looking for a pristine, clean sound. I mute like crazy with the side of my hand and either use a pick (for more of an attack ) or play with the side of my thumb a la Brian Wilson or a lot of early reggae stuff. A tube amp and going to tape do not hurt in this pursuit.

What I find is that this kind of bass tone sits incredibly well in a mix. It doesn't compete with other instruments for frequency range and it can drive a track like crazy. The bass sound on the Amy Winehouse album kills me, for instance.

[popmann]

Ehh...I like a nice dark, wooly bass tone...and love me a P...but, I got say I've never understood the love of the mute under the strings. Can't stand that sound.

...prefer round wounds, too. But, only after the " " has been played out of them. Flats just won't growl when you dig in.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

Never change the strings until you break one.

what does that do?

[Mr. PC]

I think he means that new strings tend to be "y" and have too many overtones for a classic bass sound. Old strings still produce a nice tone.

PC

Holy cow--I typed in the word b-o-i-n-g-y and the emoticon thingy came up!

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Mr. PC

I think he means that new strings tend to be "y" and have too many overtones for a classic bass sound. Old strings still produce a nice tone.

PC

Holy cow--I typed in the word b-o-i-n-g-y and the emoticon thingy came up!

thx

[SK1]

The decay in your sample track sounds too short for the arrangement. Mute it less or just control the decay/mute with your picking hand.

I agree with the p bass/ jazz bass old strings theory as per previous posts.

I'll mention action, because nobody else has mentioned it so far. I say man up and raise the action, with the heaviest strings available. MMmmm mmmmm good.

For me it's a jazz bass// DR heavy strings // reddi // Neve 1272 // DBX 160vu // API 550B.
set appropriately .......... it works !!!

[lakeshorephatty]

Originally Posted by SK1

The decay in your sample track sounds too short for the arrangement. Mute it less or just control the decay/mute with your picking hand.

I agree with the p bass/ jazz bass old strings theory as per previous posts.

I'll mention action, because nobody else has mentioned it so far. I say man up and raise the action, with the heaviest strings available. MMmmm mmmmm good.

For me it's a jazz bass// DR heavy strings // reddi // Neve 1272 // DBX 160vu // API 550B.
set appropriately .......... it works !!!

I feel you on the too short decay for sure...

Its over emphasized..

But i don't play with a pick.. its index and middle fingers for me.. I usually play much quicker music.. i've tried a pick from time to time but find it a real challenge.. so no palm muting for me!

I'll keep trying to work the tone though... its very fun! and the other posters are right, it doesn't fight the mix and i love the balance with this kind of tone..

[byrd62au]

Originally Posted by brill bedroom

Ah, finally a thread where I can make a contribution. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying different options. the aforementioned P bass with flats never fails, but I've found particularly good luck with short scale and hollowbody basses. Right now, my favorite bass to record is a 60's Hofner violin bass with black tapewound strings- the combo McCartney used on Let It Be.

Compared to most modern bass tones, what I'm going for is a limited frequency range with most of the high end rolled off and a strong fundamental tone. I also am generally not looking for a pristine, clean sound. I mute like crazy with the side of my hand and either use a pick (for more of an attack ) or play with the side of my thumb a la Brian Wilson or a lot of early reggae stuff. A tube amp and going to tape do not hurt in this pursuit.

What I find is that this kind of bass tone sits incredibly well in a mix. It doesn't compete with other instruments for frequency range and it can drive a track like crazy. The bass sound on the Amy Winehouse album kills me, for instance.

Have a listen here

Rick Suchow - NYC Bassist ... Jaco Pastorius & James Jamerson rare audio - BASS

McCartney isolated from a master tape supposedly.

[SK1]

Originally Posted by lakeshorephatty

I feel you on the too short decay for sure...

Its over emphasized..

But i don't play with a pick.. its index and middle fingers for me.. I usually play much quicker music.. i've tried a pick from time to time but find it a real challenge.. so no palm muting for me!

I'll keep trying to work the tone though... its very fun! and the other posters are right, it doesn't fight the mix and i love the balance with this kind of tone..

I NEVER play with a pick ....... F that .... LOL !!! Have you ever seen sting play ???
You can palm mute and use your thumb, especially on super slow ringing lines like in your sample, or even mute with your fretting hand. Remember your thumb is your fattest finger. You wanted "fat tone" right ?? LOL .... Also have you seen upright players pick with their whole hand? Just a few ideas to get you going. It's your mentality and touch that will get you there.

Hell yes it's fun.

Let's get to it !

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Mr. PC

Maybe you already know this, but I was surprised when I learned that the motown bass was DI only. I always thought there was some classic B-15 kind of amp involved, but the bass and the guitars were recorded direct.

That is true. However, the guitars and bass listened to themselves through a 15" monitor very similar to a B-15 cab, and I believe it helped contribute to that B-15-like sound through bleed. Plus, if Jamerson said the B-15 was the sound he wanted, they probably tried to get a similar sound with the DI.

[peeder]

I'll just post a note for the inexperienced that some of these really heavy strings (e.g. the Rotosound nylons) have very large gauges that require alteration of your nut to fit into the bass. Some may even require alteration to the bridge to widen holes there. So these aren't for all players or all basses and they might not be easily reversible (making a new nut takes me a couple hours but you might have to use a luthier and spend over $100).

Just something to think of before you run out and buy $40 sets of strings you might have trouble returning.

[Kiwiburger]

Checkout The Official Carol Kaye Web Site - one of Motown's secret weapons. This lady played on so many classic albums, it's not funny. I believe at the time Motown didn't want people to know that a white chick played bass on their records.

Carol Kay played with a pick, and damped her strings with felt over (not under) the strings. If you look at the list of credits, you realise she pretty much defined "vintage bass", and influenced many players.

As I understand it, the Motown and the recording industry in general, at that time, used musicians much like we use midi instruments. Writers, arrangers, session players - pretty much lived in a box and were used when needed. I guess the producers didn't always tell everyone what was really going on. Grab a new song from here, get some players to jam out an arrangement, get some other session players to re-record that arrangement, etc.

I think the same thing is going on today, just different tools. Bad drummers and bass players are either extensively edited or replaced with session players or samples/loops/whatever.

Look at this list ... Carol Kaye - bass credits

[camerondye]

I also do not like playing with a pick, but sometimes the song calls for it. You can also palm mute and use your 2 fingers, it just takes practice. I wrote the bass lines and played in the studio for this band and did the palm mute with 2 fingers thing on 1 of the songs. Go to Beggars' Caravan - Take Me With You clips and listen to "What Else Do I Need".

It takes time to practice and get it right, but I like it better than palm muting with a pick. The bass I used is an a Alembic Essence with a PJ pickup setup steered a little towards the P pickup. I really tried to keep a Motown feel on most everything, the band liked how I played and really let me do 90% of the ideas that I brought up.
Cam

[DeadPoet]

It also depends on the bass. I've bought a '78 P last year and they had a few new ones and a '74 in the store at the time. My '78 sounds the same with tone control open as the '74 with the tone control fully counterclockwise.
(+ '78 is my year of birth )


Fender standard flats on it, tone control at about 85% and everybody's head turns and recognizes 'that' sound.



Herwig

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Look at this list ... Carol Kaye - bass credits

Seems there is still some controvery over some Motown bass credits like who played on 'I was made to love her'. Definitely sounds like James Jamerson to my ears though Carol Kaye claims to have played on it?

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by SK1

I NEVER play with a pick .......

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

It also depends on the bass.

I'm fortunate in that the mute is still attached to my '69 EB3. When I bring it up to just kiss the strings and play with a fairly aggressive finger style I get a pretty cool sound.

As far as old strings........can't go there. I need strings with some integrity left in them.

[Geoff Firebaugh]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Seems there is still some controvery over some Motown bass credits like who played on 'I was made to love her'. Definitely sounds like James Jamerson to my ears though Carol Kaye claims to have played on it?

she might have played on some 70's motown stuff, but 'bernadette' and 'can't help myself' (at least the original motown cuts) is classic Jamerson. Hell, the guy that did 'standing in the shadows of motown' used an instrumental mix of 'bernadette' in the soundtrack and gradually faded everything else in and out just to showcase Jamerson's style.

I'm actually a fan of Carol Kaye's playing, but she is nowhere as funky as jamerson. 3 words: What's goin on. nuff said.

-g

[camerondye]

Carol Kaye did an excellent job on the Beach Boys stuff, I have a tape around here of her more current Jazz stuff. I saw an instructional type video of hers about 10 years ago and she is a big advocate of always using a pick when playing which I thought was kind of odd....to each his/her own.
cam

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Geoff Firebaugh

she might have played on some 70's motown stuff, but 'bernadette' and 'can't help myself' (at least the original motown cuts) is classic Jamerson. Hell, the guy that did 'standing in the shadows of motown' used an instrumental mix of 'bernadette' in the soundtrack and gradually faded everything else in and out just to showcase Jamerson's style.

I'm actually a fan of Carol Kaye's playing, but she is nowhere as funky as jamerson. 3 words: What's goin on. nuff said.

I totally agree! I just wonder why she claims credit for that part on her website.

But then I also wonder why the great Bernard Purdie claims credit for Beatles tracks.....

[camerondye]

It definitely makes her look like sour grapes on the Jamerson stuff, but maybe she did play some of the songs...who knows. I just went to her website and its got some videos and stuff.
cam

[PRobb]

Perhaps Mr. Ohlsson will chime chime in but my understanding is that Detroit Motown was either Jamerson or Bob Babbit and Kaye didn't enter the picture until they moved to LA.

I'm surprised Babbit's name hasn't come up yet. A lot of the stuff everyone assumes is Jameron is actually Babbit.

[zonymash]

Go check out some old Meters records. Those bass tones will kick your ass.