Waves/Duende/Airwindows/REAL THING deathmatch!

[chrisj]

Also known as Return Of The Son Of That Sound Clip Is So 2007 Dude

If anyone remembers from last year, I was developing Logical (which has been pretty successful- there are a bunch of people who will be getting updates soon!) and got it to where it was sounding pretty good but not as silky as Duende (which costs more than $60, mind you).

Since then I've done some new stuff, notably Chrome Oxide, which gave me more building blocks for ways to get things sounding analog and solid. I've applied them to my amps and cabs (and gave the amps away for free and bundled all the cabs together) and I'm right now applying them to all the Character plugs.

And I'm gonna give 'Crystal' away for free- in fact wait a sec...

http://www.airwindows.com/f/Crystal.dmg

I just gave Crystal away for free, and I'm bundling together all the Character plugs that do not also compress, and updating Logical and Elation (Elation is getting more ability to compress, Logical is only getting that little update in organic analogness and is not changing anything to do with settings or basic tonality).

Which brings me back to that SSL sound deathmatch. I have not managed to make Logical be more silky than Duende. But I have managed to make it resemble the real hardware more- I think. At any rate there's a 'kickin factor' with the hardware that I think is beginning to happen with Logical.

So I've updated the old mediafire folder, included the clip of the real hardware SSL, and if you guys don't mind, I'd love feedback on how I'm doing with it this year.

Waves.wav -Waves SSL

Duende.wav -the unbeatably silky Duende

LogicalNew.wav -the new Logical

Real Hardware SSL Xlogic G.wav -the REAL THING, SSL hardware

If Waves or Duende have updated, it would be really important to get current examples of their sound up here, I'm not going to assume there haven't been changes since November. The hardware unit won't be updating because it is the real thing and the reference all of us are chasing

[LeMauce]

Sounds pretty darn good. And i like the logical plugin. It just give a bit more to the mix. Nice for when im on the road with my powerbook and not have the "real" SSL in my pocket

[chrisj]

Thanks man new Logical is live at the Kagi store now, updates going out in 3... 2... 1...

Again this should not affect stored settings of saved projects, it doesn't change levels or thresholds of anything. It is a tweak to the internals that comes from the guts of Chrome Oxide, which I didn't have last year. Softens and de-edges the highs just a hair to be more in line with the sound of the hardware unit.

[preben]

Have listened - have the following comments .. feel free to ignore:

Analog is obviously the most smooth/warm/sheeny... all the words we normally (for a reason) apply to these things.

The Duende is a close second. Not quite as silky and 'squishy' in the transients (that's a plus-word round here just so you know). It kinda reminds me of the difference of a vintage guitar amp when you hear it against a really well done re-issue. Both are great - one has more magic than the other - no doubt.

On the other hand there's also an openness with the Duende that I really like - listen to the tail of the reverb on the vocal for instance... Now, there's little doubt that I am biased having spent MUCH more time on a Duende setup than on the 'real deal'. In other words: I'm used to hearing this sounds as 'the reference' - something I think is VERY important in our assessment of these things...

I would be very curious to hear this clip through an older G384 which I'm sure would sound different again. Time and use definitely has an effect on all things electronic. No idea what but you can hear it.

The waves is more grainy and the stereo perspective seems more narrow or limited when comparing with the SSL's (both of them).

The Logical is still a slightly different sound. For me I think a lot of this has to do with the attack and release settings on your plugin. To my ears it sounds like the attack reacts slower than the rest and that the release is faster which seems to give a slightly more 'rowdy' sound. Not quite a polished as the other ones.

I also think some of the perceived lack of silkiness from the Logical plug is to do with letting more transients through (or more bits of transients if you like). This goes for the drums (obviously) but also very much for the vocal transients which can give the sound a more papery and ess'y flavour.

But given the price point it's hard to argue with it - I'm with LeMauce here. Well done!

[chrisj]

I never ignore comments. Thank you- especially as you're a longtime Duende user. I already know I can get some people even preferring Logical because of its toughness, so your opinions carry a lot of weight to me as someone who is seeking the things I have NOT mastered yet

[Funkyappledog]

Hi ChrisJ ,
Love that singer .Have not heard that piece before.

its very interesting .Levels are critical for realistic judgement im sure you would agree being a mastering engineer so the problem with the comparisons are differing levels from example to example.
The Duende file is quite soft and yours is the loudest.With that in mind it is nearly impossible to guage true and relative differences.
Its real easy to see this on the waveforms so while yours sound the biggest that is mainly the volume being the loudest .I only mention this because thats a trap young players .
Im sure that is not your intention though this is not a fair comparison.Can you conform these files to make a real shootout.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/image...es/sulkoff.gif

[Kenny Gioia]

I think it sounds pretty damn good.

$60. That's crazy.

Great job.

[LeMauce]

Indeed 60bucks isnt alot for a plug like this. BUT after some future testen i have a little thing say... Your plug compared to my duende setting its abit harsher in the top end/bit brither i will say. Its still good, not from that. But its just a remark. (i hear with your plug the squick that the kickpedal makes with duende i dont its more smooth out).

[chrisj]

Funkyappledog and LeMause- that's a good point. I keep using just default settings on Logical, and it's pretty close to the hardware clip but you're absolutely right, it's not matching the Duende clip very well.

I've made adjustments to try and match everything about the Duende clip, including the 'silky', and I'm interested in comments on this opinion: when I adjust it to match the Duende, I have to turn 'personality' up to get more high frequency color, and I have to turn both the drive and output level down a hair. When I do this, I can make it closer to the Duende, but there's a way that Duende chokes the upper mids that I can't replicate AND that I don't hear in the hardware clip so much.

So even if Duende is the actual SSL software from out of the actual computerized desks, I think what I'm doing with Logical is actually closer to the earlier _hardware_ SSL compression sound, because although it is appealing I don't think the upper mids of Duende are supposed to be that soft.

Here's the mimicking-Duende clip with the adjustments-

LogicalMimicsDuende.wav

That's still the version that is shipping now- no updates have been made, it's just changing the existing controls a bit to adjust the sound closer to Duende and farther from the real gear

Bear in mind that I am not going to try and argue that people shouldn't like Duende- but I guess I am arguing that compared to a recording of the real hardware gear in action, Duende as good as it is is not 'better' than what I'm doing with Logical by now- just softer, which is not the same thing

Cheers, and thanks for your patience as I keep diligently trying to win the best million dollar desk emulation award against such respected and highly-achieving competition. It's an honor to be doing this- when I grew up it was in the days of vinyl soundpages in magazines and there was no internet and no possible chance to put something out there and have it stand on just its sound quality, without access to major manufacturing and distribution. It is a marvellous world we live in.

Now, back to the topic- DO the changed settings on the same 2008 Logical now beat Duende- not in being silky, necessarily, but in being true to the real device and in being musically effective?

[JPeters86]

Very, very nice work! I think you did an excellent job. Although I'm not a big fan of the SSL sound, 60 bucks is a bargain.

[redroom]

From my listening tests the Hardware sounds the best and logical comes in 2nd

I have a question about the test Chris
Did the plug ins go through the same ADDA conversion as the hardware?
Im my experience this makes a big difference in these types of tests

Also how much compression if any is being used on the song?

[chrisj]

I honestly don't know- I discovered the shootout last year and thought it was a fantastic resource. I mean, anytime you can have not only the source track, and a bunch of digital emulations, but also a version of the hardware being emulated, it's very exciting. But you raise an interesting point- does the real hardware compressor not have that slight midrange hardness that I hear on its sound clip (and that isn't present in the Duende)? Does that come from the DA/AD loop?

I don't think it does, because the result is more musically involving and there's an articulation and immediacy about it that I daresay we are all trying to deliver. Doing anything even close to this type of sound is really not easy, you cannot simply put on some sort of filter and a compressor and expect to have a result, and I don't think any of us are doing close to that. To make it even more interesting, I have every reason to believe that all our implementations are totally, totally different! So these clips ALL ought to sound quite distinct, and it's really a question of what acts most like the classic piece.

I would think it would be just as useful to have people who've spent most of their time working on the real hardware gear to chime in, as it is to have a clip of the hardware, because of the reason you mention- I'd like to make things work for people who are used to working with the analog piece, IN analog throughout, off the real desk, without ever hitting digital again. To me, the fact that the real SSL compressor had to be resampled into digital again is an unfair penalty to it, and I wish I could compare stuff to the analog gear as heard IN analog.

But since I can't, I'm grateful that a clip of the hardware exists at all

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by redroom

I have a question about the test Chris
Did the plug ins go through the same ADDA conversion as the hardware?
Im my experience this makes a big difference in these types of tests

That may be true but why would you add that to the test?

Who in the real world would add an extra ADDA conversion to a plugin?

[redroom]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

That may be true but why would you add that to the test?

Who in the real world would add an extra ADDA conversion to a plugin?

It makes the tests more fair

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by redroom

It makes the tests more fair

It makes things even but if you're trying to decide between using hardware or a plugin, there's no need to have an extra ADDA in the plugin version. It won't ever be there.

[chrisj]

Basically, with an extra DA/AD in the chain for the hardware, it's not fair to the hardware and we can assume that the real thing would actually sound even BETTER if you actually had it and weren't even going to digital, just monitoring the outputs. So having to sample it is not fair to the hardware comp.

That said, it still kicks all our silicon butts, so don't feel TOO sorry for it

Although the hell of it is, in normal use neither we nor our listeners will EVER hear the hardware comp on finished music without it being made at best a CD and at worst an mp3... so the fact that the analog comp can sound best in pure analog is maybe a bit moot

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by chrisj

Basically, with an extra DA/AD in the chain for the hardware, it's not fair to the hardware and we can assume that the real thing would actually sound even BETTER if you actually had it and weren't even going to digital, just monitoring the outputs. So having to sample it is not fair to the hardware comp.

It's not fair to it, but that's the drawback of using a Hardware device with a DAW.

The SSL is not a digital unit.

If I want to A/B my Daking EQ as compared to my Digi EQ III plugin, I don't run the plugin thru an extra conversion just to make it fair. I don't care about fair. If I want the Daking, I must suffer the conversion. If I'm happy with the plugin, I don't need the conversion.

Am I not getting something?

[redroom]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

It's not fair to it, but that's the drawback of using a Hardware device with a DAW.

The SSL is not a digital unit.

If I want to A/B my Daking EQ as compared to my Digi EQ III plugin, I don't run the plugin thru an extra conversion just to make it fair. I don't care about fair. If I want the Daking, I must suffer the conversion. If I'm happy with the plugin, I don't need the conversion.

Am I not getting something?

I agree with all your saying however in listening tests like this I would liek to hear the plug ins run through the same ADDA as Im not actually in the room where the tests were conducted.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by redroom

I agree with all your saying however in listening tests like this I would liek to hear the plug ins run through the same ADDA as Im not actually in the room where the tests were conducted.

Fair enuff.

[chrisj]

Necro-threadization- thanks to the efforts of Slate Digital, there are now NEW audio clips out there of an ITB mix, and the same mix run through an SSL 4K. Not Waves or Duende- the REAL CONSOLE.

Seems to be a lot of opinion in the Slate thread that the upcoming VCC plugin is better than the real thing. It sure surprised me that the real console was tizzier and less beefy.

Logical is still more like the real thing, even if that's now not as good-sounding. So, I can put up two more examples of direct real SSL/Logical comparison. Should be fun. I tried to adjust the Logical samples to the exact average RMS level of the SSL 4K tracks, though internal dynamics might vary a little

Slate's first example through the real SSL-
http://www.slatedigital.com/consoles/SlateVCC_B.wav
Logical-
http://www.jinxtigr.com/temp/SlateVCC_Logical.wav

Slate's second example through the real SSL-
www.slatedigital.com/consoles/SlateVCC2_E.wav
Logical-
http://www.jinxtigr.com/temp/SlateVCC2_Logical.wav

I think there are situations where you'd go for more of the real console sound, even if it doesn't sound as 'good', because it has a raspier vibe, leaner lows, a weird aura I've known about for some time around those tizzy highs (I had Character up over 2 in order to match it)... I think it's actually a pretty crappy sounding console by high end or audiophile standards, but then a JCM800 sounds pretty nasty on symphony orchestra too. It's all about what you need out of the sound. And Logical still gets mean in the manner of an SSL, for those who need that aura of nasty

Logical has been around since 2007, and still costs $59.99