22nd February 2008
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#1 | | Gear maniac
Joined: May 2006 Location: Nashville
Posts: 238
Thread Starter  | focal twins - +4 or -10 ?
are there going to be any negative effects of running them at -10 instead of +4? i'm running out of headroom on my central station with them at +4..
let me know! thanks guys!
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22nd February 2008
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#2 | | member no 666
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Suffern, NY
Posts: 10,412
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Well if you're running out of headroom because you're using a "semi-pro" monitor controller... switch your monitors to the "semi-pro" input level and you'll be better off than you are now... or, you can get yourself a "pro" montor controller and run the input to your monitors at the "pro" level.
Water seeks it's own... as does audio.
__________________ CN Fletcher Professional Affiliation: R/E/P Professional Recording Engineer and Producer forums mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
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Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light | |
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22nd February 2008
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2004 Location: MO USA
Posts: 2,158
| Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny brandon  i'm running out of headroom on my central station with them at +4.. | What do you mean 'out of headroom'? I've used the CS with K+H O300D, Bel Canto and McIntosh amps, all kinds of other stuff. No problems at all. It of course has fully balanced +4 dBu outputs.
If you plug those outputs into RCA (-10 dbV) inputs on the Focal (I don't know their configuration), then you run the risk of overloading the monitor amp.
If you mean you cannot turn the volume control on the CS to full, you need to calibrate the CS and your DA. Then you should set the attenuator at 70% of full travel, set up an SPL meter, and adjust either the CS output trims or your monitor amp attenuators until you measure 83 dBSPL with one monitor playing.
Same as with any monitor controller.
Steve
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22nd February 2008
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#4 | | Pragmatic Snob
Joined: Oct 2004 Location: The Land of Sunshine
Posts: 12,005
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my guess is he means the opposite: he's got the volume knob cranked and the focals are still not loud enough. if that's the case, just switch them to -10.
gregoire
del
ubk
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22nd February 2008
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#5 | | Gear maniac
Joined: May 2006 Location: Nashville
Posts: 238
Thread Starter | Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k my guess is he means the opposite: he's got the volume knob cranked and the focals are still not loud enough. if that's the case, just switch them to -10.
gregoire
del
ubk
. | that's exactly what i meant. maybe i had my lingo wrong. haha, oops. the adam's ive got are plenty loud with the input gain knob set flat, but the focals aren't nearly as loud as the s2's.. just wanted to make sure there won't be any damage to them running at -10, or no degradation in sound.
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22nd February 2008
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#6 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2002 Location: Elmont NY | Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny brandon that's exactly what i meant. maybe i had my lingo wrong. haha, oops. the adam's ive got are plenty loud with the input gain knob set flat, but the focals aren't nearly as loud as the s2's.. just wanted to make sure there won't be any damage to them running at -10, or no degradation in sound. | the input sensitivity is lower on the focals for sure. If you can get them loud enough
by cranking your controller I'd do that and turn all your other speakers down to match.
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www.musiclabnyc.com
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22nd February 2008
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2004 Location: MO USA
Posts: 2,158
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You still need to measure and calibrate any passive controller to match the rest of the system, just to make sure you can use the whole sweep. If you are running with your source mixer fader up, DA properly adjusted, all the output trims, the main CS attenuator, and the Focal attentuators (if it has them) all wide open and still don't have enough volume.... then you must be mixing at really low levels. Either boost the level at the mixer, or get an active preamp/controller, or.... set the Focals to -10 I guess.
Steve
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18th June 2008
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#8 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 655
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Focal's sound better at -10. Quite noticeable effect on the spacial positions int the mix field.
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18th June 2008
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#9 | | Gear maniac
Joined: May 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 219
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Do you have any examples of mixes done on Focals at +4 and -10?   | |
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18th June 2008
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#10 | | member no 666
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Suffern, NY
Posts: 10,412
| Quote:
Originally Posted by polybonk Focal's sound better at -10. Quite noticeable effect on the spacial positions int the mix field. | Wow... can you get me some of that?
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19th June 2008
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#11 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Holland
Posts: 685
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Haha...
I've noticed also that at -10 they sound better. But I refuse to believe it, cause louder tends to allways sound better?
But I prefer +4, cause of loud pops when people unplug guitar amps or turn off lights etc (I know...). At plus 4, these are less loud.
Ears can be decieving. Is the -10 a better option? Does the amp run differently at plus 4.
Now Fletcher says +4 = the what the pro's use?
-10 is louder
+4 is less loud.
right~?
miqer
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19th June 2008
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#12 | | Gear nut
Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Europe
Posts: 131
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I tried it at the same dBc and the stereo image seems to spread more = less directional at -10.
Think there's definitely a difference in the stereo image between -10 and +4.
Am I gaga or can this be? 
Different levels for the amps or what?
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19th June 2008
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#13 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,001
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<< or, you can get yourself a "pro" montor controller and run the input to your monitors at the "pro" level. >>
I thought my SPL monitor section (model 2381) WAS professional. I guess not, since it does not have quite enough gain to drive my Focals @ -10.
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19th June 2008
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#14 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2003 Location: Kansas City
Posts: 701
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Well, I'm using a Benchmark DAC-1 with my Focals and I had to crank the output at +4, so I switched them to -10. I also noticed that they had more stereo spread at -10. Are we all high?
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20th June 2008
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#15 | | Gear addict
Joined: Dec 2006 Location: Austria
Posts: 480
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Well i have an spl volume2 with dynaudio bm6a (know some different setup here) .... somehow i feel also that they sound better at -10 (better imaging and little less mudd) at the semi professional -10 
But i doesn't run out of "headroom" at +4 or -10 for my listening levels.
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20th June 2008
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#16 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2008 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 903
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They DO sound wider at -10, I just switched and could instantly tell. It's so drastic it's almost weird though, because they were plenty wide before. Louder is better, of course, but is wider? | |
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20th June 2008
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#17 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2007 Location: Taiwan
Posts: 196
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Same story here. Had my Tannoy Ellipse 8's running at +4 with HUI monitor controller and Apogee Ensemble. Switched to Lavry Blue DA and TL Audio FatTrack and -10... Then checked at +4 again... Went back to -10. Love it, and main volume knob now at 12 o' clock is just the right level.
Anton
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20th June 2008
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#18 | | Gear nut
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 144
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this is very very weird. did anyone find this to have an effect on mixing ?
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20th June 2008
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#19 | | Gear nut
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
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I notice the same. And posted a question about this before, finally... I am not crazy.
In tests people claim the Focal Twins have a slightly better stereo image than the adam s3a... I bet that's when they are on -10
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20th June 2008
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#20 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: Finland
Posts: 3,955
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What is the treshold of Focals protection circuits?
Matti
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20th June 2008
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#21 | | Gear Head
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 32
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when you set the focals to -10 do you also change the level in the sound card (lets say fireface 800) to -10 or you can set the focals to -10 and the soundcard to +4?
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20th June 2008
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#22 | | Gear nut
Joined: Aug 2007 Location: Europe
Posts: 131
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You can do everything. But you shouldn't change the actual level for the converters, only attenuate the output when comparing.
I'm going to my Dac-1 from FF800 so it won't matter for me.
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20th June 2008
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#23 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Holland
Posts: 685
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Interesting... Mhhhh...
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23rd June 2008
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#24 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
| Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilingZone when you set the focals to -10 do you also change the level in the sound card (lets say fireface 800) to -10 or you can set the focals to -10 and the soundcard to +4? | Great question! Any answers?
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23rd June 2008
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#25 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2008 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 903
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I left my card at +4 and now my speakers are at -10, working great  | |
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23rd June 2008
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#26 | | Gear interested
Joined: Sep 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 21
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Metric Halo out, into SPL MTC, Focal Solo6's at -10 - approx 85db at 12 o'clock - perfect. I found the +4 setting I had to drive everything way too hard. Especially at mix stage in Logic when you're not peaking the master at anything above about -6.
-10 is the go IMHO. :-)
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25th June 2008
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#27 | | Gear nut
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
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I'm at +4 card and +4 on the focals.
I might try the speakers at -10, and see if I get a wider image.
Is it a 'bad' thing, technically speaking to have the sound card at +4 and the speaker amp at -10? Bad for the card or amp? Or ok?
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25th June 2008
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#28 | | Gear Head
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 32
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i am also right now +4 on my fireface 800 and +4 on the focal twin but when i turn up my goldpoint to 100% the focals still not loud as they should be.
with -10 on the focal i can here very loud but i want to know if it heart the sound some how when the monitors on -10.
thanks
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29th April 2009
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#29 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2007 Location: Nashville
Posts: 200
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Aha! This is a great thread. I've wondered about this since August when I got my Twin 6be's. What's the deal? I left them at +4 for months. I have a Tonelux rig with the control room module. I always had to turn the monitor level up to 80-90% when listening loud. And even then, it's not seriously cranking.
Then I switched to -10. Now I turn the monitor control level up about 30% and it's as loud as I'd want to go. The only problem is at -10, there's always a slight noise coming from the monitors. It's driving me crazy. It's a hiss and a very slight almost inaudible buzz, but it's there. It's there when my monitor control is at zero.
I don't think a calibration of my Rosetta 800 would be needed since my Tonelux summing module is getting plenty of signal.
Ideas anyone?
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30th April 2009
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#30 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Sep 2008 Location: Hamilton, Canada
Posts: 975
| Quote:
Originally Posted by TOFT I'm at +4 card and +4 on the focals.
I might try the speakers at -10, and see if I get a wider image.
Is it a 'bad' thing, technically speaking to have the sound card at +4 and the speaker amp at -10? Bad for the card or amp? Or ok? | It might be -- you're sending a much hotter signal to them than they're expecting at the -10 setting.
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