Recording singer/songwriters??

[china jam]

This is something I've always avoided! Could never see the fun in it because the interaction with a bunch of mental blokes in a band is half the fun of recording aint it?

Thing is, I've just been offered a job that'll help out my career so I'm asking for you're detailed tips (tracking and mixing) to help me make the most of it.

I'm not a div and the artist is going to give me a decent performance.

Ethan Johns makes a vocal and acoustic guitar sound massive, think Ray LaMontagne records and Ryan Adams' Heartbreaker. I'd like to aspire to something along those lines.

Cheers!

[allencollins]

check out a guy named James Taylor used to be on Apple records.

[china jam]

Originally Posted by allencollins

check out a guy named James Taylor used to be on Apple records.

Lemme reach for a cd...

Although I adore you, that doesn't really help much does it?

[Matt_Weston]

I tend to work mostly with singer/songwriters. I have had the most success by assembling the band for the album and rehearsing the songs beforehand and then tracking the bass and drums rather than just the singer with their guitar to a click. It's easier to get the vibe right from the ground up rather than the other way around.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by china jam

Lemme reach for a cd...

Although I adore you, that doesn't really help much does it?

Well It helped me. His first couple records are the staple for singer songwriters.
So I'm really not sure what you mean.

'Performance' as you put it emits from the soul not from a post on message board.
So I see why my original recommendation wouldn't help you.

[turnstile]

Always have the artist play his/her instrument when tracking vocals. You will tend to get a much better performance as the distraction of playing the instrument takes the mind off the singing/vocal. If there's bleed...so be it. Worked for many of the greats from Billy Joel to Nick Drake.

[china jam]

Originally Posted by allencollins

Well It helped me. His first couple records are the staple for singer songwriters.
So I'm really not sure what you mean.

'Performance' as you put it emits from the soul not from a post on message board.
So I see why my original recommendation wouldn't help you.

I get what you're saying but you've misunderstood me. I listen to loads of singer songwriter stuff, it's probably my favourite genre to listen to. I've just avoided recording it but for this dude who I'd be stupid to turn down.

I'd hate to see this question being asked too, trust me.

I just thought GS would be a good place to turn for some help!

[china jam]

Originally Posted by turnstile

Always have the artist play his/her instrument when tracking vocals. You will tend to get a much better performance as the distraction of playing the instrument takes the mind off the singing/vocal. If there's bleed...so be it. Worked for many of the greats from Billy Joel to Nick Drake.

I should have said. He will be recording live takes, playing and singing.

[BudgetMC]

Embrace the bleed... it's the key to making it sound big.

What kind of vibe are you looking for here? Soft and thoughtful? Upbeat and cheerful? More edgy and Americana-ish?

[Unclenny]

I'm a singer/songwriter....and I record myself.

If my experience is a good barometer I'd have to say that they are a hard lot to record......ill prepared, demanding and mercuric.

Seriously, though....sounds like you've got yourself a good gig. Best of luck with it.

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by BudgetMC

Embrace the bleed... it's the key to making it sound big.

What kind of vibe are you looking for here? Soft and thoughtful? Upbeat and cheerful? More edgy and Americana-ish?

this is true..make the room sing..think nick drake

i'd look for period photos of him, dylan others in the studio ..look at the mics and position

not something i have done much..i did a raw blues player who had a harp and gtr...i had to find the right spot in the room and just go with it..the real deal is the player has to perform dynamicallly correct ..then it's easy if not ..it's a bitch

that is why joe boyd says in 'white bycycles" that nick dracke stood out...he played and sang exactly like it needed to be...all they had to do waas capture it

[FW Harper]

Originally Posted by BudgetMC

Embrace the bleed... it's the key to making it sound big.

I agree. Regarding Ethan Johns, I remember reading in the tape op interview that most of the drum sound on the first Ray LaMontagne record was bleed from the vocal mic. This might explain why you feel the guitar and vocals sound big. They sit well with the drums (that Ethan Johns was playing btw).

Love his work.

[uncle duncan]

Try figure 8 mics on the guitar and vocal. There was a bit in the Dylan bio pic where he was recording guitar/vocal. The vocal mic was aimed up, near his chin. The guitar mic was aimed down. I'm assuming they were figure 8. You might also try room mics, or whatever. In fact, if it wouldn't be too weird, perhaps you could schedule a short first session just for trying out mics, explaining to the artist that he's just too good to risk using the wrong mic on his performance. The room may come into play, or not. He may move around so much, you'll have to forget close mics and get the sound with one mic, in which case MS might be cool.

One thing I do, if the artist is struggling with a song, (and having him try it another time isn't an option) I'll tell him if he makes a mistake, just back up a bit in the song and continue, but I won't rewind and punch in. I'll just keep rolling and then splice it together after he's finished the take. Once the artist gets the hang of it, it takes the pressure off and they can go for it without worrying about screwing up. The obvious approach would be rewinding and punching in, but sometimes by the time you do that, the artist has lost the magic - and magic is what it's all about with a guitar/vocal performance.

One more consideration - if the artist just maybe, possibly, might want to produce these tracks later, use a click. If you don't, you'll regret it, (or retrack it.)

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by Unclenny

I'm a singer/songwriter....and I record myself.

If my experience is a good barometer I'd have to say that they are a hard lot to record......ill prepared, demanding and mercuric.

Yep. I also record myself, and the boss can be a picky SOB, too.

+1 on the click. It's a PITA, but will save heartburn in the future.

[china jam]

What's the best way to get separation between the vocal mic and acoustic mic?

[jaydeluca]

I agree with the whole "better performance when they play live" deal...

although i have run into a few "J.V." issues on my part.

A singer/songwriter i recorded was an amazing performer, could nail a song in one take. This was great and bad at the same time. Bad because i got too comfortable with her takes, and didnt critically listen to potential problems. Then when i began mixing i came across an issue... she had a tendency to sing reaaaally loud at times, and simple level adjustment and compression became an issue because there was so much bleed in the guitar mics too that when i lowered the vocal mic, it was still there from the other mics. Looking back i could have done some overdubs and re-recorded some guitar tracks over that part and brought them into the mix at those times, and possibly some new vocal tracks too.

Just something to consider if your recording someone who sings very loud at times.

[theblue1]

Singer-songwriter here (and former studio engineer/producer)...

I second the thought that many singer-songwriters will do best with their guitar in their lap or seated at their piano.

I find that playing, having my guitar pressed up against my chest, really helps my intonation while singing. (I really noticed this when I was accompanying myself with a mandolin. The thin sound of the mandolin didn't give me the same rich tonal cues that having a dreadnaught resonating into my chest gives me.)

Now, we know that an acoustic guitar often forms a resonant synergism with the player's chest cavity -- which is why in the classical guitar tradition some attention is paid to the position of the guitar, particularly as it rests against the chest. It stands to reason that harmonic interplay between the voice and the guitar in the resonant system of the player-guitar will be an issue, too.



Anyhow, not only do I usually record my guitar and vocal together for folk oriented work, I often use just one mic for both vocal and guitar.

I used to always use two mics (and for a while three, two on the guitar -- but the phase issues were just too much) for vocal and guitar tracking -- but I found that it made performance a little trickier. I tend to move around a bit when I play and sing -- even if I'm fingerpicking and not moving my body and guitar much, my typical mic technique involves a certain amount of head movement. In my fairly live (and somewhat quirky) room, the shifting singing position could cause the guitar mic to pick up varying amounts of vocal.

Ultimately I found using a single mic positioned somewhat further away from both the guitar and my mouth and chest (I move the placement closer to the guitar for fingerpicking and farther away for plectrum work, of course) gave me a good working approach -- particularly for the folk podcast recording I (supposedly) do on an ongoing basis.

[BudgetMC]

Just a style thing, I'm sure, but I'm all for tracking live, and without a click track. A big part of the Singer-Songwriter thing is vibe and delivery... the songs need to be organic. Let them speed up and slow down a bit! Deal with volume issues by riding those faders!

As for vocal/guitar separation, as I said, I'm not into trying too hard to keep them apart. But, I have had some luck micing the guitar with a small cardiod Lav clipped at the soundhole, or held a few inches away on a popsicle stick (a numer of James Taylor cuts were tracked this way, I believe). Also, take a direct line out of the guitar if it's got a pickup. It may not be the best sound in the world, but it will be almost completely free of vocals, and man be mixed in at a low level and with an effect (I like a smidge of rotary speaker emmulator) to add a bit of ear candy.

[china jam]

Thanks for the replies

[bogeyeater]

some great tips here.

if you can get an acoustic pickup into an amp in a separate room, clean with a touch of overdrive, that's a nice flavour to add too

make a click by sampling fingerclicks in the room. it's an 'organic' sound to start with and if you catch it on the mics at any point it blends in fine.

[nightscope]

John Martyn - Bless the Weather

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofPpzAdhIOU

ns

[Unclenny]

John Martyn....excellent example!

A major influence for me early on. So much emotive singing and playing demands inventive engineering and a ton of tape (adhesive).