Gear Evaluation

[NickHiebert]

Alright, I recently quit my job at a local studio and feel I have enough knowledge to continue this part-time on my own, but I know when I've been outdone in the know-how department, so I have some inquiries before I embark on this endeavor.

I'm planning to do multi-track recordings at home and need some advise on equipment that would best suit my needs... I'm first trying to do my best to emulate the equipment I've gotten used to operating at my former job, but I plan to scale down a few redundant aspects. At the studio, we had a Control|24 running Pro Tools 5.1 TDM, the I/O was set up as to be able to switch from line/mic using various patchbays and such... We had and Avalon vt 737sp, a Drawmer 1960, HHD Radius 40, etc... For my own uses I'd only need one Compressor, but that aside I'll give the list of equipment I'm planning to sport for myself.

Digidesign Digi 003 Rack Factory Pro Tools LE System
M-Audio Octane 8-Channel Mic Preamp with ADAT Lightpipe
PreSonus Central Station
Alesis POWERTRIP-8 Conditioner and Light Module
ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor

So, I figure I can run the M-Audio Octane into the Digi003 via ADAT Lightpipe to get 16 simultaneous tracks, and I had no use for something as large and clumsy as the Control|24, so I tried my best to cut it out but still keep some of the most-used features (16 pre-amp channels, talkback, monitor switching, headphone buses, aux sends, etc) by melding all of these rack items together. The PreSonus would cover the headphones, talkback, monitor switching, etc, and the octane would cover the channels. As for compressors, I only ever really use two channels at the same time (kick (out), snare (top), dual-miking with guitar cabs, piano (stereo) miking, etc) so I chose the ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor because it's two channels and I've read that it's the best bang for your buck.

I just wanted to know if there's anything else I need to consider, running this much gear with LE I fear for latency issues, crashes, etc. I'm not financially prepared to get anything remotely close to Pro Tools HD or any peripheral hardware needed to maintain it, so LE is the way I'm choosing to go for now.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

-Nick

[NickHiebert]

anyone?

[peeder]

What I would do is start by setting up and tuning your monitoring.

1) Make a reference CD of the music in your genre(s) that you think sounds great
2) Find a (ideally tuned) showroom to listen to monitors using the reference CD.
3) Pick your favorite monitors (+amp if unpowered) for your budget (at least 10% of what you intend to spend and ideally more) and set them up in your own studio properly (e.g. sand-weighted stands, the right relative position in the room, angle, and width)
4) Obtain bass trapping in your corners and absorption and/or diffusion for your reflection points...clapping in your room shouldn't produce flutter echo and a sinewave sweep on your monitors should be fairly even at the mix position from 30 to 400 Hz.
5) Start demoing D/A converters with a CD player that has digital output

Now you are able to hear and you can evaluate everything else in your chain yourself. Purchase everything you can in a returnable way and shoot things out against each other. Build a minimum chain of interface, DAW, and computer and get that worked out first before building out with more gear.

You want to minimize your time-to-hindsight and bootstrap all of this right. That is the way to do it: incrementally, focusing on the ability to make decisions first, and then making informed decisions via shootouts with your material in your room.

Ask in the acoustics forum for more help being able to hear properly.

[NickHiebert]

Well, I haven't the time to troubleshoot a bunch of ordered equipment, my plan was to order everything I needed off Musiciansfriend.com and assess it's suitability through word-of-mouth... Until I can afford better monitors, I've chosen Mackie HR624mk2s because I've heard they're the best value for the price.

[peeder]

Haste makes waste.

[NickHiebert]

I literally can't afford to wait, though... It's not that I'm impatient, I just worked at a recording studio about 100 hours every two weeks for the last 7 months and never saw more than $200 TOTAL during that whole employment. During that time I've accumulated quite a debt, so I need to do this as soon as possible... I'll probably shop around for good monitors before I order them, but as far as the rest of my gear goes, I pretty much know that it works.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

I literally can't afford to wait, though... It's not that I'm impatient, I just worked at a recording studio about 100 hours every two weeks for the last 7 months and never saw more than $200 TOTAL during that whole employment. During that time I've accumulated quite a debt, so I need to do this as soon as possible... I'll probably shop around for good monitors before I order them, but as far as the rest of my gear goes, I pretty much know that it works.

7 months at 50 hours/week for $200? Urgh. Intern position or a girlfriend with a good job?

Not to be mouthy, but you just asked for advice on setting up shop, someone with experience gave it, and you are ignoring it, essentially saying that you don't have time to heed whatever advice is given.

If you don't have time to heed advice, then why ask? Buy what you know works, as you say, and go nuts.

You'll probably find that most project studios are built around a format (PT, in your case), and the other bits are added by assessing need and seeing if they work with your kit. Most studios are continually morphing, but prudent studio owners deliberate over how each piece fit into their workflow and integrate with their existing gear.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

7 months at 50 hours/week for $200? Urgh. Intern position or a girlfriend with a good job?

Not to be mouthy, but you just asked for advice on setting up shop, someone with experience gave it, and you are ignoring it, essentially saying that you don't have time to heed whatever advice is given.

If you don't have time to heed advice, then why ask? Buy what you know works, as you say, and go nuts.

You'll probably find that most project studios are built around a format (PT, in your case), and the other bits are added by assessing need and seeing if they work with your kit. Most studios are continually morphing, but prudent studio owners deliberate over how each piece fit into their workflow and integrate with their existing gear.

Oh, I apologize, I didn't mean to ignore the previous comment, I just wasn't going to think too too hard about the monitors I'll be using until I can afford better ones, but I have done enough research and listening on different models, and I'll go with Mackie HR624mk2s because, like I said, they seem to be the best for the price... When I have more money later on, I'll definitely take the advise and cross reference a lot of different models to find what's right for me. All I meant to say is that I've already chosen monitors for my price-range right now, but I will be investing further in the future.

[DeepSpace]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

...but prudent studio owners deliberate over how each piece fit into their workflow and integrate with their existing gear.

And that is why the advice Peeder offered is seriously worth considering.

It's all very well to get recommendations about a bunch of different pieces of gear. They probably all work well enough for someone somewhere. But the two questions you must answer is will they work well *together* and will they work well for *you*.

You can't hope to answer either of these essential questions unless you've got a first rate critical listening environment to evaluate the gear in - hence Peeder's priority on monitoring and room treatment.

Once you've got the capacity to hear what is going on, you are going to have to assess the items of equipment one at a time. Whether you do shootouts as Peeder suggested or whether you take educated guesses and recommendations and then get an item on trial to see what it does for you, you do need to consider each item individually against the rest of your choices. And however you do that, it is going to take time.

The up-side of spending the time is that at the conclusion of the exercise, you will know and understand each piece of gear and how it works with all the other parts of your rig. It's still going to take the same amount of time to get to that point (maybe longer) if you buy everything in a day and then start trying to master it. Bulk acquisitions all at once generally results in the acquirer never properly learning or understanding any of the gear. much less how it all inter-relates.

BTW another option (other than purchasing and returning pieces) as you're making decisions and assembling your kit, is to hire items. You'll spend a little along the way doing that, but it can save you from wrong moves that will be far more expensive.

[NickHiebert]

Thanks a lot for the advise, I've carefully selected the gear I wish to order... My question was pretty much "is there anything I can change", and "what do I need to consider when buying/setting up/testing my gear once I get it". But, really, I am considering every bit of information you guys offer me, keep it coming, I'm really open to ideas and suggestions... I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting so far.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

Alright, I recently quit my job at a local studio and feel I have enough knowledge to continue this part-time on my own, but I know when I've been outdone in the know-how department, so I have some inquiries before I embark on this endeavor.

I'm planning to do multi-track recordings at home and need some advise on equipment that would best suit my needs... I'm first trying to do my best to emulate the equipment I've gotten used to operating at my former job, but I plan to scale down a few redundant aspects. At the studio, we had a Control|24 running Pro Tools 5.1 TDM, the I/O was set up as to be able to switch from line/mic using various patchbays and such... We had and Avalon vt 737sp, a Drawmer 1960, HHD Radius 40, etc... For my own uses I'd only need one Compressor, but that aside I'll give the list of equipment I'm planning to sport for myself.

Digidesign Digi 003 Rack Factory Pro Tools LE System
M-Audio Octane 8-Channel Mic Preamp with ADAT Lightpipe
PreSonus Central Station
Alesis POWERTRIP-8 Conditioner and Light Module
ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor

So, I figure I can run the M-Audio Octane into the Digi003 via ADAT Lightpipe to get 16 simultaneous tracks, and I had no use for something as large and clumsy as the Control|24, so I tried my best to cut it out but still keep some of the most-used features (16 pre-amp channels, talkback, monitor switching, headphone buses, aux sends, etc) by melding all of these rack items together. The PreSonus would cover the headphones, talkback, monitor switching, etc, and the octane would cover the channels. As for compressors, I only ever really use two channels at the same time (kick (out), snare (top), dual-miking with guitar cabs, piano (stereo) miking, etc) so I chose the ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor because it's two channels and I've read that it's the best bang for your buck.

I just wanted to know if there's anything else I need to consider, running this much gear with LE I fear for latency issues, crashes, etc. I'm not financially prepared to get anything remotely close to Pro Tools HD or any peripheral hardware needed to maintain it, so LE is the way I'm choosing to go for now.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!

-Nick

I put together a system similar to this about five year ago. I already had monitors (JBL lsr 25p's) and a pretty good standard mic kit. I went with an 002, an focusrite octopre, and a dbx 386, and i run it on a 1 gig powerbook. (512 ram, 150 gig firewire drive)

This is enough gear to get very good demo quality tracks without room treatment (assuming the rooms you work in don't sound terrible) plus you can be reasonably portable. Keep it simple and use lots of close micing. If you want to make money in the local demo market then building a room doesn't make much sense financially IMHO. If you plan on working out of your house do what you can to treat it but it doesn't seem like you are aiming all that high on the gear side so why break the bank on acoustical treatments? Just DIY the best you can. I know bands like the chili peppers and incubus have tracked records in rental mansions and it can add a vibe to the sound. This also a good setup to record live shows with. Mixing on the other hand is another story. I would treat a room to mix in if possible.

I work with my primary client out of there band house. When i live track I set up my gear in a bedroom, run a snake to there rehearsal room, stick guitar amps in a bathroom and a laundry room, and go DI with the bass. I then have the guitarists, the bass player, and the singer in the control room listening through the monitors with me while we track. I give the drummer a set of cans. If i record to a click i just lay down a bass, gat, and a vox for the drummer to play to. Once we get a nice drum drack i re track every thing else in the rehearsal room which is the best room acoustically. It has a vaulted ceiling with cedar paneling, cedar panel walls, carpet floor, wall length slot blinds on two sides, and heavy blankets over room the room opening. The carpet and blankets provide some absorption and the slot blinds give some diffusion.

I use the "low latency monitoring" option while we record. The latency is null when this is turned in. The down side is you cant use any plug ins while you track. Not cool if the singer wants reverb but Ive never had any real problems with it. Just thought you would be interested in how i utilize a similar setup in what will probably be a similar situation for how you will be working.

I don't know if i agree with some of your gear choices. First off the central station seems kinda pointless. You have every thing that thing does included in the 003 except talkback. You can run two monitors sets, and have two headphone outs as well as the ability to run 1 separate headphone mix so what else do you need? Just open up an aux fader in pro tools and run a cheapo mic off one of the digi pres and tada you have a talkback mic. Even if you want the built in talkback and extra monitor/headphone options the mackie big knob seems like a much better buy.

Second i don't know about the m audio octane thing. I have never used it so i wont slam it right out but i get the impression you are basing your purchasing decision off of MF reviews. In my experience when reading reviews you need to look at it from the reviewers perspective. Most people who bought this thing probably have no experience with anything better. It probably kills built in interface pres and cheesy board pres but it also probably sucks compared to allot of other things that are in the 500-1000 range. Do some GS searches and you will find much more informed reviews on gear than on MF. My advise would be to look into similar units from presonus, focusrite, or mackie.

3rd the comp. Again i don't own one nor have i ever used one but you would probably be much better off finding a couple of jbl/urei 7110's used on fleabay.

I've used older mackie monitors and don't have anything bad to say about them though i like my JBL's better. The newer low end jbl stuff has built in room correction as well.

I'm interested in some more info on what you have or what you are planning to buy as far as a computer and Mic's. What is your budget? Have you considered the Black Lion audio upgrade for the 003? I think I'm going to do it to my 002. The converters in the digi le stuff blow. If I had it to do again i would have bought a better converter and nicer preamps rather than go with the all in one converter pre amp box. Good converters and pres are spendy but man do they make a difference. I'm sure you could better than the octane and i probably could have done better than my octopre. If i had it to do again i would have done the BLA upgrade and bought an API 3124 and rolled with 8 pres till i could afford a nice converter and more good pres. Live and learn i guess.

[NickHiebert]

Good call on the PreSonus Central Station, I think I may go with the Mackie Big Knob... I went with the ProSonus because not only am I VERY interested in having a functioning reliable talkback, I heard the PreSonus has AMAZING sound quality. I'll probably go with the Mackie now that you mention it, though.

I also chose the M-Audio Octance because it supports ADAT Lightpipe, a lot of 8-channel pre-amps that I've seen don't feature optical connections at all... It seemed to be the only thing that seems to work for me, but if you can suggest anything better, by all means I'm open to suggestions. Like I said, I can't afford to wait and I can't afford to screw up at the same time, so any help is worth a lot to me.

But, here's a list of everything I wish to purchase...

Equipment:

Digidesign Digi 003 Rack Factory Pro Tools LE System
ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor
M-Audio Octane 8-Channel Mic Preamp with ADAT Lightpipe
Mackie HR624mk2s
PreSonus Central Station

Mics:

AKG C 414 B-XL II
AKG C 1000 S x2
AKG D 112
CAD ST-100
Sennheiser e604 x3
Sennheiser MD421
R0DE NT3
Shure SM-57 x4
Shure SM-58

Other:

Alesis POWERTRIP-8 Conditioner and Light Module
Tech 21 SansAmp Para Driver DI Instrument Preamp Pedal
Yamaha ADAT I/O Cable

As for as computers go, I was just going to buy a Mac Pro from apple, format it and put OS X Tiger back on.

[Jules]

Dont forget to budget for back ups.

Firewire drives etc

Insurance? (be a bummer if it all gets ripped off the day after its delivered...)



Sounds like you have the gear list organized.. now just eat Top Ramen and keep an eye out for second hand goodies to pick up along the way...

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Jules

Dont forget to budget for back ups.

Firewire drives etc

Insurance? (be a bummer if it all get ripped off the day after its delivered...)



Sounds like you have the gear list organized.. now just eat Top Ramen and keep an eye out for second hand goodies to pick up along the way...

Good idea, I was looking into buying a 1 TB Master back-up external drive... And I'm still not sure who I talk to about insurance, though.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

Good call on the PreSonus Central Station, I think I may go with the Mackie Big Knob... I went with the ProSonus because not only am I VERY interested in having a functioning reliable talkback, I heard the PreSonus has AMAZING sound quality. I'll probably go with the Mackie now that you mention it, though.

I also chose the M-Audio Octance because it supports ADAT Lightpipe, a lot of 8-channel pre-amps that I've seen don't feature optical connections at all... It seemed to be the only thing that seems to work for me, but if you can suggest anything better, by all means I'm open to suggestions. Like I said, I can't afford to wait and I can't afford to screw up at the same time, so any help is worth a lot to me.

But, here's a list of everything I wish to purchase...

Equipment:

Digidesign Digi 003 Rack Factory Pro Tools LE System
ART Pro VLA II Tube Compressor
M-Audio Octane 8-Channel Mic Preamp with ADAT Lightpipe
Mackie HR624mk2s
PreSonus Central Station

Mics:

AKG C 414 B-XL II
AKG C 1000 S x2
AKG D 112
CAD ST-100
Sennheiser e604 x3
Sennheiser MD421
R0DE NT3
Shure SM-57 x4
Shure SM-58

Other:

Alesis POWERTRIP-8 Conditioner and Light Module
Tech 21 SansAmp Para Driver DI Instrument Preamp Pedal
Yamaha ADAT I/O Cable

As for as computers go, I was just going to buy a Mac Pro from apple, format it and put OS X Tiger back on.

THe Mackie Onyx 800r and Presonus Digimax have built in optical and the octopre has an optional card. Heres a link to a bunch of similar products Multi-Channel Preamps | Sweetwater.com.

I also think that Audio Technica condensers might give you some more bang for the buck over your AKG selections. The 4041's are much better than the c1000's IMO and the 4050 is pretty much comparable to the 414 for half the price. A peluso p12 IMO would be a much better value than the 414 as well. Its modeled after the akg c12 and tromps akg's vintage reissue for 1/5 the price. All though theres not much point in buying a 1200 dollar mic to plug into a 50$ a channel pre. In addition audix drum mics are a great value over the 604es. Audio Technica atm 250's are great tom mics as well as are 57's if need be.

Dont forget to budget for cables either. You may also consider a 16x4 snake. You also haven't mentioned Headphones. Audio technica offers a good value here as well.

Another thing to consider is instruments and amps. Your mics and pres are only as good as what you put in front of them. You should learn to tune drums. Even an entry level kit can sound great if tuned properly. Premier and Yamaha offer great mid line kits in their cabria and stage custom lines. Wuhan s-series cymbals are a great value and unique sounding. Hand hammered cymbals at that price point is unheard of. I used this site to learn to tune and have had great results VideoDrumLessons.com.

I went ahead and priced out what i would do in your situation and copied it to a word doc for you. I have used and had had good results with everything i have recommended here with the exception of the mackie pre. I have heard it praised as best in its class around here though. I also suggest you shop around at Welcome to Sweetwater.com | Call Us @ 800 222 4700 and Professional Audio Recording Equipment | Vintage King Audio | 248.591.9276 because they are studio orientated retailers and less of a jack of all trades like musicians friend. I also must add that i agree with the previous posters that said starting with a treated monitoring environment and monitors you are comfortable with is a great idea. I lack a good listening environment in my setup and am starting to realize just how much of a crutch it really is. Monitors that adjust for this are availible but probably not nearly as good as the real deal.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

THe Mackie Onyx 800r and Presonus Digimax have built in optical and the octopre has an optional card. Heres a link to a bunch of similar products Multi-Channel Preamps | Sweetwater.com.

I also think that Audio Technica condensers might give you some more bang for the buck over your AKG selections. The 4041's are much better than the c1000's IMO and the 4050 is pretty much comparable to the 414 for half the price. A peluso p12 IMO would be a much better value than the 414 as well. Its modeled after the akg c12 and tromps akg's vintage reissue for 1/5 the price. All though theres not much point in buying a 1200 dollar mic to plug into a 50$ a channel pre. In addition audix drum mics are a great value over the 604es. Audio Technica atm 250's are great tom mics as well as are 57's if need be.

Dont forget to budget for cables either. You may also consider a 16x4 snake. You also haven't mentioned Headphones. Audio technica offers a good value here as well.

Another thing to consider is instruments and amps. Your mics and pres are only as good as what you put in front of them. You should learn to tune drums. Even an entry level kit can sound great if tuned properly. Premier and Yamaha offer great mid line kits in their cabria and stage custom lines. Wuhan s-series cymbals are a great value and unique sounding. Hand hammered cymbals at that price point is unheard of. I used this site to learn to tune and have had great results VideoDrumLessons.com.

I went ahead and priced out what i would do in your situation and copied it to a word doc for you. I have used and had had good results with everything i have recommended here with the exception of the mackie pre. I have heard it praised as best in its class around here though. I also suggest you shop around at Welcome to Sweetwater.com | Call Us @ 800 222 4700 and Professional Audio Recording Equipment | Vintage King Audio | 248.591.9276 because they are studio orientated retailers and less of a jack of all trades like musicians friend. I also must add that i agree with the previous posters that said starting with a treated monitoring environment and monitors you are comfortable with is a great idea. I lack a good listening environment in my setup and am starting to realize just how much of a crutch it really is. Monitors that adjust for this are availible but probably not nearly as good as the real deal.

I have it all budgeted out already, I have cables, stands, bass traps, a TAMA drum kit, and all that other stuff already budgeted in, I just didn't present them here because I didn't think it was relevant information. As for the mics, I think I'll stick with the selection I have because I've used them all before in the past and I know exactly how they all behave and sound, I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable ordering a bunch of mics I've never had the chance to try before.

Also the Shure SM7B is a mic that I've had experience with, it's mediocre at best... I didn't like a single track I recorded with it.

[peeder]

You're going to get clients who are in a rush to record and looking to save money.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by peeder

You're going to get clients who are in a rush to record and looking to save money.

Naturally. There's a lack of studios in this city, so I'm pretty much in direct competition with my former boss... A lot of people pass up opportunities to record with him for financial reasons because his rates are rather expensive. He has these high rates to maintain his upper-class lifestyle, I however can afford to do VERY similar recording for a fraction of the cost because I live a very minimalist lifestyle and have nothing that really needs to be maintained other than the payments on my debt. I believe I will collect a fair bit of business, mostly people that can't afford to be produced by my former boss.

I've worked out my total (maximum) spending on this to about $17,000 or so; maybe more, maybe less. I just need to find a way to save thing much, or find a way to get a loan.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

I have it all budgeted out already, I have cables, stands, bass traps, a TAMA drum kit, and all that other stuff already budgeted in, I just didn't present them here because I didn't think it was relevant information. As for the mics, I think I'll stick with the selection I have because I've used them all before in the past and I know exactly how they all behave and sound, I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable ordering a bunch of mics I've never had the chance to try before.

Also the Shure SM7B is a mic that I've had experience with, it's mediocre at best... I didn't like a single track I recorded with it.

I think there is alot of people that would disagree with your evaluation of the sm7b myself included. Every studio should have one. For many people with it is a go to vocal mic. How can you like a 58 and say a sm7 is "mediocre at best"? Ive used pretty much all the mics on your list in either a live or studio environment or both and let me tell you you should do so more research before you start ordering mics. You are building a bang for the buck studio yet some of choices are horrible values. Especially the 414. Its a great mic (at least the older models are) and many would say belongs in every studio. But your not building every studio. You are building a low cost project studio. Audio Technica mics hold there own with the big boys and you should consider them and not write them off without trying them because they are a tremendous value. I understand you want to work with mics your comfortable with but you should know there are plenty of options out there and for "the money" a 414 isnt a very good one.

There are a lot of much better small diaphragm condensers out there then c1000's. They are not terrible but they would be my last choice given any other options. I think you might find many would agree with that. I do love 451's however but they aren't that versatile. I use SM 81 as my go to SDC mic's. 4041's, sm 81's, and 451's, are all in that price range(451's are more) and are much better mics. Thats only three but there are many other better options than c1000's.

The 57's, 58's, 421, and d 112 are all pretty standard studio stuff and are good choices for a starting kit. I still think that an re 20 and an sm7 should be added to that list. Id probably buy 2 421's and not bother with e604's at all. An audix d6 is also a very good buy. It can fill in as a floor tom mic as well as an alternative bass drum mic. From there i think you should go with a better value pic in a pair of SDC's and a pair of multi-pattern LDC's. Buying a stereo matched pair of 414's down the road and going with something more versatile now is probably a better idea.

The thing i don't understand about you is why you start a thread askiing for advise on your kit and then say you are going to be stubborn and stick with what you have picked out. I think you should order stuff like the 002, the CPU, the studio standard mics, and cables and stuff, and go buy the more subjective stuff such as condensers and pres locally so you can return them if need be.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

I think there is alot of people that would disagree with your evaluation of the sm7b myself included. Every studio should have one. For many people with it is a go to vocal mic. How can you like a 58 and say a sm7 is "mediocre at best"? Ive used pretty much all the mics on your list in either a live or studio environment or both and let me tell you you should do so more research before you start ordering mics. You are building a bang for the buck studio yet some of choices are horrible values. Especially the 414. Its a great mic (at least the older models are) and many would say belongs in every studio. But your not building every studio. You are building a low cost project studio. Audio Technica mics hold there own with the big boys and you should consider them and not write them off without trying them because they are a tremendous value. I understand you want to work with mics your comfortable with but you should know there are plenty of options out there and for "the money" a 414 isnt a very good one.

There are a lot of much better small diaphragm condensers out there then c1000's. They are not terrible but they would be my last choice given any other options. I think you might find many would agree with that. I do love 451's however but they aren't that versatile. I use SM 81 as my go to SDC mic's. 4041's, sm 81's, and 451's, are all in that price range(451's are more) and are much better mics. Thats only three but there are many other better options than c1000's.

The 57's, 58's, 421, and d 112 are all pretty standard studio stuff and are good choices for a starting kit. I still think that an re 20 and an sm7 should be added to that list. Id probably buy 2 421's and not bother with e604's at all. An audix d6 is also a very good buy. It can fill in as a floor tom mic as well as an alternative bass drum mic. From there i think you should go with a better value pic in a pair of SDC's and a pair of multi-pattern LDC's. Buying a stereo matched pair of 414's down the road and going with something more versatile now is probably a better idea.

The thing i don't understand about you is why you start a thread askiing for advise on your kit and then say you are going to be stubborn and stick with what you have picked out. I think you should order stuff like the 002, the CPU, the studio standard mics, and cables and stuff, and go buy the more subjective stuff such as condensers and pres locally so you can return them if need be.

I'll definitely switch out a few mics, the 414 is gone, I agree with it not being a very good value. I should get something worth it now, and maybe (like you said) buy a pair of 414s, or even a single used one or something. I had doubts about the e604s, and they're off the list... I mainly wanted the 421 for the floor tom and guitar cabs, not really to be used on the rack toms. I was actually thinking about getting two EV N/D368s for the rack toms instead, would that be a better idea?

Also, I still think the Sm7 isn't something for me, we've had two come through the Studio in the last few months, we thought the first one was defective and ordered another but it had the same behaviors... So, the experience I had with them kind of turned me off of them a bit.

As for the C1000s, I've used them at the studio with pretty good results, but having said that there are plenty of other microphones I haven't tried as overheads... What would you would be the best deal for overhead mics that would offer the best sound for the price?

So, in terms of LDCs, what do you suggest I should use for vocals, I picked the 414 because it was sensitive enough to pick up very low level signals (singing, whispering, etc) but rugged enough to take the SPL of a full-out scream. Would an Audio Technica AT4047 or AT4060 be good values for something like that? The AT4060 is a bit more expensive , and the other is about half the price. Also from experience, I've known the Neumann TLM 103 to be MUCH better mic than the 414, but just not as versatile. I just need gear that would allow me to compete with my former boss.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

I'll definitely switch out a few mics, the 414 is gone, I agree with it not being a very good value. I should get something worth it now, and maybe (like you said) buy a pair of 414s, or even a single used one or something. I had doubts about the e604s, and they're off the list... I mainly wanted the 421 for the floor tom and guitar cabs, not really to be used on the rack toms. I was actually thinking about getting two EV N/D368s for the rack toms instead, would that be a better idea?

Also, I still think the Sm7 isn't something for me, we've had two come through the Studio in the last few months, we thought the first one was defective and ordered another but it had the same behaviors... So, the experience I had with them kind of turned me off of them a bit.

So, in terms of LDCs, what do you suggest I should use for vocals, I picked the 414 because it was sensitive enough to pick up very low level signals (singing, whispering, etc) but rugged enough to take the SPL of a full-out scream. Would an Audio Technica AT4047 or AT4060 be good values for something like that? The AT4060 is a bit more expensive , and the other is about half the price. Also from experience, I've known the Neumann TLM 103 to be MUCH better mic than the 414, but just not as versatile. I just need gear that would allow me to compete with my former boss.

Understand alot of this stuff is subjective and i am pretty much speaking from my own expirience. I used the e604's at a live show wasnt real thrilled with them so im glad to see them off the list. In my expirience the 421 really is a better rack tom mic and the 441 is more well suited for floor toms. 421's work pretty well on alot of things but shine on tom toms. I didnt go for 421's when i put my kit together because i tried them on alot of things when i was in school and found while they are good general purpose mic i liked other mics better on most things besides toms and horns. So for me it didnt seem like a good investment. I went with a pair of AT pro 25's for toms and love them in that aplication. If you like 421's on other things than by all means go for it. A 57 will work very well on guitar cabs and toms and audix, shure, and AT make good purpose built tom mics. AT doesnt make the pro 25's any more but the atm 250 (not the DE version) i belive is basicly the same mic. As far as the EV N/D368s i cant tell you about this paticular mic because i haven't used it but my expirience with electro voice products has been stelllar to say the least

I know im starting to sound like a Audio Technica salesmen here but i just think when value and mic are in the same sentance AT springs to mind. If you want an AT 414 clone then the 4050 is your mic. Compare the response graphs on the two mics they are nearly identical. As far as spl and sensitivity go look at the numbers im sure they are pretty close. It is also a multi pattern mic so you may want to consider a pair if you want to do some crazy stero micing. I used the 4040, 4050, and 4060 alot in school as well as many other more expensive mics and felt they stood up just fine. THe first two are great mics and a great value but the 4060 for me is kinda meh. You could do way better in a tube mic for the money. The peluso p 12 springs to mind. I havent actually used this one but ive heard enough samples of it to buy it without hesitation. If you like 414's they have a lineage that comes from the akg c 12. The peluso is a modern recreation of that mic and sounds better to my ears than the akg c 12 vintage reissue. THe sure ksm 44 is cool mic too though i have pretty limited expirience with it. It has a real presence that you might like.

If i were you i would go ahead and order the 57's, 58, d112, and possibly a pair of 421's and an re 20 . You really cant go wrong with any of those mic's and most would consider them as pretty standard studio mics to have. From there i would find some audio samples and compare specs of these mics and buy them locally to see how they work for you. Return them if they are not your thing. For me an audix dp5a bundle, a pair of 4041's, and a 4050 would round out your kit pretty nicley though i would make sure you could return them if they are not your flavor.

[Rigg]

I dint cover your overhead question but like i said ealier for me my three favorite SDC's were sm 81's, 4041's, and akg 451's. I also liked ksm 184's. The 81's and 4041's are more tame and versitile while the akg and nuemans are more present and kind of a niche sound to me. The 451's are terrible on bright cymbals (zildgan z customs) or acoustics but fantastic on dull instruments.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

I dint cover your overhead question but like i said ealier for me my three favorite SDC's were sm 81's, 4041's, and akg 451's. I also liked ksm 184's. The 81's and 4041's are more tame and versitile while the akg and nuemans are more present and kind of a niche sound to me. The 451's are terrible on bright cymbals (zildgan z customs) or acoustics but fantastic on dull instruments.

Really good suggestions, getting two 421s was a good call... but I don't have the money for any pair of SDC mics, and I was thinking about buying the C1000s because they came in a pack of two for a decent price and from experience I can say that they don't sound THAT bad. But, I'm still open to alternatives, how about Shure KSM137s or KSM141s?

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

Really good suggestions, getting two 421s was a good call... but I don't have the money for any pair of SDC mics, and I was thinking about buying the C1000s because they came in a pack of two for a decent price and from experience I can say that they don't sound THAT bad. But, I'm still open to alternatives, how about Shure KSM137s or KSM141s?

The 4041's are $500 for a stereo matched pair. Ive never owned a sure mic i didnt like or used one that i didnt like. I have more expirience with my sm 81's than any other SDC and have never been dissatisfied in any situation with them. Based on that i would guess they are good mics but i dont know for sure you would have to give them a whirl.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by Rigg

The 4041's are $500 for a stereo matched pair. Ive never owned a sure mic i didnt like or used one that i didnt like. I have more expirience with my sm 81's than any other SDC and have never been dissatisfied in any situation with them. Based on that i would guess they are good mics but i dont know for sure you would have to give them a whirl.

Ok maybe they arent matched but either way here is a link. Audio-Technica AT4041 Studio Pack | Sweetwater.com

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

Ok maybe they arent matched but either way here is a link. Audio-Technica AT4041 Studio Pack | Sweetwater.com

I should be looking on this site for recording equipment, I was just using Musiciansfriend for their wishlist option...

What mics would be great for floor toms? My former boss used to use another AKG D112 on floor toms from time to time...

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

I should be looking on this site for recording equipment, I was just using Musiciansfriend for their wishlist option...

What mics would be great for floor toms? My former boss used to use another AKG D112 on floor toms from time to time...

Dude read over some of my previous posts again i already gave you a links to sweetwater and vintage king and told you to check em out. I know im throwing alot of info at you and as you can tell i spend alot of time reading up on and pricing gear. I think 57's work great on floor toms and the audix pack would give you some options on toms as well. So far my shopping cart for you is at $3,669.64. Is that in the budget?

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

Dude read over some of my previous posts again i already gave you a links to sweetwater and vintage king and told you to check em out. I know im throwing alot of info at you and as you can tell i spend alot of time reading up on and pricing gear. I think 57's work great on floor toms and the audix pack would give you some options on toms as well. So far my shopping cart for you is at $3,669.64. Is that in the budget?

Sorry if I missed over a few things in previous posts, I'll look over them now... Yeah, I have a budget of about $17,000 from a bank loan.

[Rigg]

Originally Posted by NickHiebert

Sorry if I missed over a few things in previous posts, I'll look over them now... Yeah, I have a budget of about $17,000 from a bank loan.

I meant your budget just for the mics. Also you never gave me your thoughts on the pre's.

[NickHiebert]

Originally Posted by Rigg

I meant your budget just for the mics. Also you never gave me your thoughts on the pre's.

I agree that I should get the Mackie Big Knob over the PreSonus Central Station, althought I've heard nothing but good things about the PreSonus' sound quality and reliability... As for the pres, I don't see what's wrong with the M-Audio Octane, it seems to do everything the other pres do but and is about of equal price.