EQ in the mix. Starting points with specific instruments.

[cajonezzz]

I find myself reaching for the same frequency's on certain instruments when I mix. General things like "clearing the mud" in Piano, or adding "definition" on bass.

I also find that certain plugs get me there faster than others.
I prefer the Mcdsp Filterbank for most eq duties.
I realize this is basic stuff for you guys and gals that have been mixing for years....

I'm curious as to what others find themselves reaching for routinely on mixes.

I'll start: a big offender is 270hz on the Yamaha Grand... I find myself pulling a fair amount with a tight Q on the massive Passive to clear up some mud....

[Drumsound]

I tend to shelf out between 60-120HZ on many instruments to make room for the bass.

[Jules]

If everthing is going to plan after basic tracking with little or no eq I set up a drum group and Compress then add 'sheen' / HF boost to it.

This established the frequency and basic dynamic range for the track. I then make all the overdubs 'fit in' with this.

At mixdown - I have learned that siblance is a BIG problem with my past mixes so I get a vocal sound and take great care not to over cook the 'esses'

Then HOPEFULLY minimal eq is required!

I also introduce copy tracks / duplicates of Kick / Sn / Toms that exist outside the comprressed drum group to help the drums 'get over the top' of loud sections of the mix and automate them up when required.

Thats on a GOOD session!

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by Jules
If everthing is going to plan after basic tracking with little or no eq I set up a drum group and Compress then add 'sheen' / HF boost to it.

This established the frequency and basic dynamic range for the track. I then make all the overdubs 'fit in' with this.

At mixdown - I have learned that siblance is a BIG problem with my past mixes so I get a vocal sound and take great care not to over cook the 'esses'

Then HOPEFULLY minimal eq is required!

Thats a GOOD session!

Hey jules.... details plz. Freq's, which plugz and or outboard?
thanks!

[Jules]

Drum group compression

McDSP compressorbank III (pay carefull attention to "bite' paramiter) and I will also try the Sony and might use BOTH.
URS API Graphic - hf frequencies boosted 'untill it sounds good' perhaps some sub boost too
Phoenix - Dark Essence at approx 2 / 3 o'clock

Switch of the compression = drums sound too "brutal' / ugly
Switch off the API - drums sound too "muddy"
Switch off the Phoenix - "I want to kill myself"

I dont remember the frequencies just boost the HF untill it sounds good, adjust the compression to crush nicely, dial that Phoenix in!

[DirkB]

I seem to get back to one standard all the time:
- suck a lot of 300Hz on kick, toms and overheads and again on the squashed drum mult bus.
- I add 3-4 dB around 4-8kHz broad Q on the snare
- I add 1-3 dB of high sheld to the uncompressed drumbus at 2-4K.
- I highpass the guitars around 50-90Hz, depending on how much low-end the bassguitar is eating up.
- I do high pass a lot of the other tracks (acoustic guitars, backing vox, percussion, synth's) and cut a lot of mids on tracks that I want to hear more around dirt guitars, but don't want to take awy space from the guitars (I do mostly rock).

Greetings,
Dirk

[Fletcher]

There are no starting points... mess with it until it sounds good... stop messing with it when you're about to pass the point where it sounds good and starts sounding not so good again.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by DirkB
I seem to get back to one standard all the time:
- suck a lot of 300Hz on kick, toms and overheads and again on the squashed drum mult bus.
- I add 3-4 dB around 4-8kHz broad Q on the snare
- I add 1-3 dB of high sheld to the uncompressed drumbus at 2-4K.
- I highpass the guitars around 50-90Hz, depending on how much low-end the bassguitar is eating up.
- I do high pass a lot of the other tracks (acoustic guitars, backing vox, percussion, synth's) and cut a lot of mids on tracks that I want to hear more around dirt guitars, but don't want to take awy space from the guitars (I do mostly rock).

Greetings,
Dirk

There is too much hi pass filtering and hi mid processing going on.

Either the mixes in the end will lack fullness or there is something wrong in the room.

[DirkB]

I don't know if I would call it wrong, but yes, my room is a little overabsorberent in the higher (1K and up) frequencies, which isn't that uncommon at all for smaller room acoustics. Furthermore, with a lot of close micing, I find there's often too much going on in the low-mids (300Hz). especcially in the drums.

I tend to like to reserve <100Hz for kick, bass and a little of the dirt guitars...

Greetings,
Dirk

[C.Lambrechts]

agree with thrill and fletcher.

too much filtering going on. too much compression too but that's old news.

Mixing is a question of levels and that's equally important then all the processing. Mixing is also a matter of choices ..... there's too much of this going on :

- drums sound good ...; add bass .... fine ... add guitar, and another one and another one ... oh hey ... where did that fist guitar go to .... let's turn it up .... lead comes in ... hmmm ... not loud enough ... ok ... better ... backingvocals ... cool ... hey where did the second and the third guitar go to ... let's turn them up .... hmm now the bass is too soft .... up too ... you think the drums are loud enough .... up .... STOOOOOOOOOOOP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


make a choice damnit. when you bring in something in the mix that's new .... take something out that's been in there since the beginning or at least lower that stuff a twat to make room for something new. Give the instruments some air to breath in. even the best sounding 'wall of sound' types of mixes are a matter of making choices. If something isn't loud enough .... try looking if the rest isn't too loud before turning it up.

and another thing ..... too much eq in solo going on ... try it in a mix ... turn up the track being processed so you hear what you're doing and then apply Fletchers rule ... fiddle till it sounds good and then stop. You'd be surprised how much better it can sound.

[Ruudman]

Originally posted by Jules
Drum group compression

Switch off the Phoenix - "I want to kill myself"

I dont remember the frequencies just boost the HF untill it sounds good, adjust the compression to crush nicely, dial that Phoenix in!

Help me out here,
I tried Phoenix and Impact (+ both by themselves, of course) on a session recently,
I got no feel of it But everyone seem to like it.

Do you use it mildly or agressively?

[DirkB]

Originally posted by C.Lambrechts
Give the instruments some air to breath in. even the best sounding 'wall of sound' types of mixes are a matter of making choices. If something isn't loud enough .... try looking if the rest isn't too loud before turning it up.

I agree. The point of reference I was talking about is my current album project where the foundation of almost all songs is drums, bass and dirt guitars l & r. I set the balance of these tracks with some low-mid cutting on the drums (especcially close mics) and a high-pass of the dirt guitars somewhere from 50-90Hz (closer to 50 than 90Hz most of the times) so the guitars and bass seem to work together with max. fullness...
After that, it's a balancing act where anything that's added is reviewed for what frequencies are added. Fact is, for these type of rock mixes, I find it's very difficult to add in anything that adds to the low / low-mid spectrum. Especcially since there's also the lead vocal, where I don't want to cut anything from...

I'm very interested in other peoples modus of operandi.

Greetings,
Dirk

[JeffSanders]

I'm also believer in high pass filtering guitars and vocals at around 100-150 hz.
To me, it really lets the bass and drums cut through with more punch and clarity.
I also like to cut 3db or so at 3k on the guitars so the vocals have more presence.
Until now, I've been a firm believer in this.
But I'm open to any ideas you guys have about this...
Send 'em in!!!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by JeffSanders
I'm also believer in high pass filtering guitars and vocals at around 100-150 hz.

Wow that's pretty high.

What about the chest tones that are present in that region?

If i ever high pass a vocal the highest i would do is 25hz if its a male and maybe 45-50hz if its female(and this is pushing it).

[chessparov]

Thriil, I thought there was very little useful info on most voices under 80 Hz or so.
(unless they're a true bass)
My low E at around 80 Hz has hardly any oomph.

Chris

[PRobb]

Originally posted by Fletcher
There are no starting points... mess with it until it sounds good... stop messing with it when you're about to pass the point where it sounds good and starts sounding not so good again.

Yeah-what he said.
One of my favorite techniques is one I like to call "find the crud". Set a narrow Q on a lo mid band. Boost about 8dB then sweep the frequency until you find the ugliest piece of sound, then widen the Q a bit and cut 2 or3 dB. That will often be the only EQ you need.
A guy I assisted when I first started working had a great approach: "You can't EQ, you can only EQ to" In other words, you can't EQ a bass. You can EQ it to the kick, the guitars, the rest of the track, but to just solo something and get it sounding great in solo is meaningless.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by chessparov
Thriil, I thought there was very little useful info on most voices under 80 Hz or so.
(unless they're a true bass)
My low E at around 80 Hz has hardly any oomph.

Chris

Most people roll off the low region because they are taking out any artifacts brought out by compression usually.

Only problem is that even though its small and minimal, its presece is in the room and that's part of the sound. Its what we tend to call the "weight" in the vocal.

When i hi pass a male vocal lets say around 25hz. a lot of times i will slightly add a shelfing filter around 100-150hz to give it back its chest.

Mixing vocals isn't really about focusing on the extremes, its really about getting the mids right as your voice moves up and down your body. Sometimes that means EQing certain syllables differently in passages. Sometimes its Eqing certain parts of the song differently.

I know it sounds like a pain in the ass, but when done right the vocal is both present,clear and full.

[chessparov]

Thanks Thrill.

Is there much of a difference EQing based on a quality digital vs. analog format?
Other things being equal.

Chris

[JeffSanders]

Hey Guys -

Thanks for your insight.

Hey Thrill - can you explain further what you mean by "eq'ing only certain syllables differently in passages"?

This forum (the Mutt Lange threads) is the only place I've read about this. I subscribe to a number of forums, and own most of the standard books on the subject, so this must be a well-kept secret.

Could you just offer one example on that practice?

What a kick ass thread!!!!

Preface: I am a hack!

Up until now I........
Start by,
1. Roll off OHs @ 200-300Hz
2. Roll off gtrs (all) @ no less than 100Hz
3. Roll off vox @80-100Hz
4. Roll off Bass gtr @25-35
5. Set up a peak on the Bass gtr @ 600-800Hz for later use
6. Set up a peak for notching out 2.4-2.8kHz on OHs for later use


Then sometimes I,
1. add a Low shelf around 500Hz for bass
2. cut very narrow at 50,100,200Hz on Bass for the kick. This varies depending on the fundemental of the kick. This example is based on 100Hz.
3. Set up the C4 on Vox finding the meat (125-250Hz), the body (1-4kHz), and the air (10kHz+) and use this to eq the vox to sit right.
4. Add a 12k shelf to OHs for sheen. Not much.


With all this said, The last song worked on had almost none of this. it was my band and we had the time to set the mics right and put some though into it.
Especially the Bass gtr stuff!!!
I finally did the DI/Mic set up that every interview in "Behind the glass mentions(..almost all) and I was blown away with how I could balance those 2 to create almost any thing I needed. Best Bass tone I have ever gotten.

Off topic:
It was a type 85 split to a M5 and a SWR Workingmans 15. D112 on the SWR to 312 (BA/API). Both to an ELOP linked and the DI additionally went to a Distressor. Elop was being hit fairly hard, not the Distressor. So far I have added nothing to this in mix. it seems to fit well. Pulling the DI over the amp for aggressive tone and the opposite for.....well....the opposite.



In closing, use your ears.....no rules are hard and fast, don't eat yellow snow, The itch is why your Mom said "stay away from her!" and Greed is NOT a virtue....blah...blahh....blahhhhhh...
The stuff that gets said on every post here.
And tends to ruin them as well.


Keep up the cool thread!!!
thumbsup


D

[JohnMcD]

Funny, I usually end up doing some wierd stuff with guitar. It all depends on the intonation. If it is spot on, usually there is no need for much of any EQ. But when it is okay on the first four frets, then pitches off, some horrible rings and nasty overtones are present. On my guitar in "clean", for example, I have to hack at around 1K8 at a notch of about 8octave narrow on my Neve. In overdrive, I have to go up to about 3K8 at a notch of about 8octave narrow.

And yes, I do get my guitar professionally intonated. Sometimes I do it myself, but hey, the guitar has seen better days after about 10 yrs of use. Not counting the time for the previous owner. It is even more prominent with the bass guitar.

-John

[lucey]

the thing about this thread is that it tells others very little they can use ...

for example, all the roll offs are as much room/mic/pre/placement dependent as mixing choice

and all the eq's and plugs for digital would be totally different for analog, even if the same room/mic/pre/placment was in effect



the only answer that makes sense to me is that everything needs to be eq'd to sound good ...

"good" means: it makes the song have a clear voice overall

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by chessparov


Is there much of a difference EQing based on a quality digital vs. analog format?
Other things being equal.

Chris

Yes and no.

I have noticed over the years that certain EQ's tend to work better on analog than digital. Its one of the reasons i tend to use compressors & processing devises as EQ's when mixing on digital than just using EQ's themselves.

That being said, a good EQ is a good EQ.

[not_so_new]

If i ever high pass a vocal the highest i would do is 25hz if its a male and maybe 45-50hz if its female(and this is pushing it).

You know I have a few major lable CD's that have some masive P pops that I could do without. 25hz is really really low. This could very easly turn into a "can we hear above 20 Khz" mess real soon. Can the human voice really produce aything usable down to 25hz???

All I have to say is this.. Most pop singers can't get down to a e2 at 80hz, serious classical types might "might" hit a c2 at 60 hz but that is rare. In a dense mix I serously doubt you will notice a low cut at 80 hz. Even if you can hear it I think you are loosing more from crap in the signal chain like AC units, bumps of the mic stand, exeterior noise or what have you than you are gaining in vocal quality.

I have no problem rolling 80 off on male vox and maybe 100 on female, depending on the key of the song.

But that is just me, YMMV...

[NathanEldred]

I tend to high pass here and there these days, there is definitely never a lacking of lows, especially sub 30-40hz. Sometimes certain things need low mids pulled out (mud), this can be anywhere from 270 cycles up to 700 cycles. Generally though it's between 300-500 and I try to scoop different places so there's not a giant hole in the mix. Everything is always different...the girl I had in today was a great singer but had a tiny predominant bump @ 2.5k. Reduce one db and boom, done. The metal singer I had in needed a 1db reduction @ 375hz and a shelving 2 db reduction @ 21k(!). Sometimes I'll just turn off the analytics and grab a knob and turn, it's often not what one expects...but it's about the feel ultimately. And it really very much depends on the mic preamp combo. A KM84 through a 1073 is going to require much different EQ than a U99 through a Buzz Audio on the same source.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by not_so_new


But that is just me, YMMV...

That is your opinion, but just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean you can't feel it(and i definitely do).

If you are getting all the crap on your recordings that you will have to EQ out, than you have other problems.

Having to do so many EQ corrections will induce tons of phase shifts and this will hurt the mix in the end.

Just as you said, YMMV

[Exmun]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
What about the chest tones that are present in that region?

If i ever high pass a vocal the highest i would do is 25hz if its a male and maybe 45-50hz if its female(and this is pushing it).

Thrill,
Given that the thread is talking about mixing, are you saying you don't usually high pass above 25 Hz in mixing only OR are you saying that your high pass approach applies when tracking also?

So when tracking, assuming a quality room/booth, you wouldn't generally engage the high pass filter on the mic, pre, Eq???

Thanks

[JohnMcD]

I gotta say that high passing would be fine in mixing, but for tracking, I think that would be a wrong thing to do. I've come from the "naturalist" camp, even though I work on Hip-Hop, Rock etc. You'd be surprised with what you can get away with. A lot of filtering has an affect on the whole mix. I master, so I can safely say that when "unfolded" and "boosted", a mix can either be wimpy or meaty. This would be due to the information present within the mix. I find that if a mix has been competently presented, it can actually add a lot more in mastering. For example, you high pass most of the tracks in mixing, but when it comes time to raise levels, the bass naturally hides and gets tucked due to all the processing. It becomes a necessity to bass boost. If you have the information, you could actually enhance the total mix in all its glory.

I may prefer natural techniques with tracking, and traditional mixing, but I am very radical when it comes to mastering. This is due to levels like Linkin Park's Meteora, or Static-X, JayZ etc. I gotta stay in competition. I'll be safe for a few more years with some new techniques (I can actually be louder and punchier with a very full mix than these releases) but, who knows eh?

Back to topic: I side with no filtering in the tracking stage. Mixing, I suppose if you're after Andy Wallace "clean" cut rock sound, you could do that selectively.

-John

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

I usually get into a fair bit of HPF and LPF during the mixing stage..But never during tracking. However i Will EQ like a mofo to get the sounds happening during tracking so when it coems to mix time, most of the sounds are dialed in and there may only be a bit of LF cleaning up.

I like to have complete track separation and with judicious and often brutal EQ/LFP &HPF im pretty much able to do what i want. I used to like to create sounds that were more 'whole' for example, say like a drum kit that sounds like a drum kit. Where as now im more about creating individual elements of a drum kit.

When i LPF & HPF .... cos im a neveslut i tend to EQ and filter according to the points on a 1073. There is something that is fundementally SO right in 95-99% of cases when i reach to use an Eq (especially a Neve) that it works out the way i want it to. I guess thats why Rupert really is 'Da Man' in that regard and someone i would unequivicably call the 'Father of British EQ' not like that suite and hanky wearing pussy.....He really is a musical dude with a great set of ears!..

Cheers
Wiggy

[hollywood_steve]

On the rare occasion that I find myself doing a rock recording these days, I still use the extreme EQ that the Beatles put to good use: wipe out all the bottom on the guitar (nothing under 240 to 300hz) and kill the corresponding midrange from the bass, say 220 to 1200. That way everybody gets their own little slot and you don't have a lot of shit fighting over the same frequency ranges. Of course, if the band walks in with a 6 string bass and some 7 string guitars, its a lost cause, you'll never convince them that every instrument doesn't need 20 to 20k frequency range. It also helps if you can convince the drummer that he is playing a percussive instrument and that his kick and floor toms are not supposed to fight for the low end with the bass.