production techniques to make chorus bigger sounding than verses

[j-madd]

Hi all,

Just curious about ways to make the chorus on songs feel bigger than the verse. Ussually, I add another guitar part over the rhythm (which I normally double and hard pan L-R), and double or triple vocals. Any other ideas (reverbs, delays, anything) to increase the apparent fullness at the point where the chorus kicks in? This would be for a say a rock/pop kind of recording. Thanks.

Justin

[tommy pee]

double track, automate and automate some more

[Infernal Device]

Use a slightly different kick sound (deeper). Very very slight or it sounds dumb.

Automate the chorus effect on the bass to be 1db louder in the chorus (everything sounds a bit deeper).

Automate the OH's 1 db higher.

Automate the gtrs to pan out a bit further.

[MarkRB]

There are a few old favourites for me if the musicians didn't pull it off, or need a bit of bolstering;

Percussion (good old tambourine, claps and shakers). Different lead vox treatment, DT, lots of BVs. A prominent melodic counterpoint to the vocals, more guitars, a subtle keyboard drone. Distorted drums..... etc...
There's loads of ways to 'produce' excitement, just check out the records you like I guess, but as previously mentioned giving those faders a nudge at the right time works wonders.

[stuntbutt]

I find it easier to make the verses smaller. In other words I start by mixing a chorus, then it's just a matter of taking things away, turning things down, panning things in, etc. for the verses.

[thx1138]

(Hard-edged) Rock music: layer in some white noise!

[yeloocproducer]

The absolute best way to make your chorus stand out from the rest of the song is to start the vocal phrasing in a different spot on the beat. I consider this production b/c many bands don't know how to consciously use this to their advantage, and it's one of the first things I address in pre-pro. So, if your verse phrasing starts on the "and" of 1 or 2 or something, bringing in the chorus with the first downbeat (the 1) stressed by the lyrics will push the whole chorus forward and into your face, making it "size-ier"... then if you add a percussion, distortion, bgv, or depth fx, it will just be "salting to taste". Obviously you can/ should experiment with other placements, but the contrast is what's important. This simple trick can have more impact than any amount of layering or fx.

The #2 best way is by changing the harmonic structure, making the chords move twice as fast, or opening up the harmony and contrasting against the verse.

These may sound obvious, but it blows my mind how many new bands/ recordists don't have a grasp on these. Even though they're traditional techniques, they won't make a band sound "dated".

But for all my meat and potatoes ranting... I'm still stealing that white noise idea. Only I'm going to use it on a hip hop track...

[lethargic]

o ya.

+1 for white noise!

[Kadden Heart]

how do you mean layering in the white noise?
i assume you mean gating the signal through kicks and snares or whatnot?

(maybe this is what you mean BUT...) if i can figure out the chords the band is playing on a midi keyboard, i'll layer in the root note of each chord with a nice fat synth pad, buried under the sound.

also i'll bring up the squashed drum mix to add some depth, and of course the duplicated guitar parts EQD to be fat and gainy under the chorus.

[Lee Knight]

Here's a simple, subliminal trick. Put a high, single note synth or string sound on the tonic and don't move it with the chord changes unless it clashes, then only move it a step or 1/2 step to avoid dissonance. This is the "soar button".


Use tons of delay so when it does do that 1/2 step move for the chord you get a nice s m e a r . . .

Fade out into the next verse.

[Sigma]

it's all in the arrangemnet of the song it isn't set up right all the efx and other crap in the world ain't gonna fix it

for R&B sometimes there would be no pad till the second half of the verse or the hook..just driums and bass and gtr then the pad would come in and stay in..or the classic no drums till the hook power ballad approach

percussion..strings extra instruments to create a bulid..each song section should be like a song unto itself

stacking vox in the hook is another oft used method..

for me it 's the build build build [and maybe the classic breakdown somewhere] don't give away everything up front and then make the vamp out short so people want to hear the song agian

[Kadden Heart]

disregard this idea,..but it worked once. and it was fun.

i had a band, they liked trying weird tihngs, but they were easily accessible rock/funk in the vain of the chilli peppers.

the bridge changed keys, and it jumped out and soared, i wanted it thicker, i wanted it rough,..etc...

sooo

played back the bridge through the monitors, LOUDLY, put an omni mic where my head should be (the sweet spot) turned on the air conditioner, and we stood behind the mic kinda randomly talking and making sounds in key. lol,...

recorded this, and mixed it in the bridge,
what it accomplished- a nice thick, noisy low end thickness to the bridge.

it was awesome,...
i wanna tr it again sometime

[Chrisc_o]

It really depends on the song. These suggestions are great so far, so the next step is to get specific (i.e. post a clip).

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Sigma

it's all in the arrangemnet of the if it isn't set up right all the efx and other crap in the world ain't gonna fix it

Agreed. I suggest you look to musical arrangement first and then follow up with some cool production techniques. Bottom line, musical arrangement is 90%, and production technique is 10% - more of less...

bp

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by drBill

Agreed. I suggest you look to musical arrangement first and then follow up with some cool production techniques. Bottom line, musical arrangement is 90%, and production technique is 10% - more of less...

bp

it's a shame people thingk we are magicians...getting it right in the studio is about arrangement as much as sound..sure i tell people cut it all the way thru and we will do drops in the mix where it feels right..but some sort of build structure needs to be in place while tracking

[j-madd]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

It really depends on the song. These suggestions are great so far, so the next step is to get specific (i.e. post a clip).

Sure, on the Song Andrea MySpace.com - The Fall Semester - Springfield, Missouri - Alternative / Rock / Pop - www.myspace.com/fallsemesterrock
it feels like the chorus needs to be bigger, and this is a common problem when I record myself. I think the panning suggestions would help along with some volume automation. These suggestions have been great!

Thanks, and let me know if you all have specific suggestions for the above chorus.

Justin

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Sigma

it's a shame people thingk we are magicians...getting it right in the studio is about arrangement as much as sound..sure i tell people cut it all the way thru and we will do drops in the mix where it feels right..but some sort of build structure needs to be in place while tracking

Mike - I think maybe you're being a little to generous. I think it's a little MORE about music than sound IMO.

So.........a typical HipHop record that comes in to be mixed:

Loads of Loops / Zero Arrangement.

2 bar, or if they are really brilliant, a 4 bar drum loop. (Not so brilliant, maybe a 1 bar loop.)

Starts at bar one, goes to the end of the song. Stacked on top, additional 2 bar or 4 bar (depending on their brilliance) loops of various instruments. Maybe upwards of 6-8 loops on top of the drums. All start at bar one and go to end of song.

Ends up sounding like one massive mess. No vs., no chorus. No intro, no breakdown. No pre-chorus, no bridge. No give, no take. No build, no release. No height, no depth. No creativity, no MUSIC!!!!!!

What happened to music and MUSICIANSHIP. It's a craft that needs to be learned and exercised!

I wonder how they ended up doing the record for months without cutting out some of the dead weight or putting a bullet in their collective heads. How can they stand it.

Then, they want me to do drops. And wonder why it doesn't sound like Jay-Z.

It's MUSIC people. Back to school - whether formal or sitting at your CD player listening - and learn something about MUSIC before going on GS and asking how to make your music pop harder. It's not production techniques that you'll walk away humming.

bp

[Sigma]

you are 100% right..

another classic is the 808 kick with a sub bass that is basiclly a moving frq changing sine wave

then the retarded question ... "why can't i hear the kick drum" ..and ya look at the speakers and on top of all of that the woofer is doing a st viteus dance trying to make the excursions even at low monitoring levels

[NobleWordz]

If I really can't come up with something extra to spice up the chorus I go back and either remove the bassline from the verses or make it as simple as I posibly can that way when it goes into the chorus there is a little flair.

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by Sigma

it's all in the arrangemnet of the song it isn't set up right all the efx and other crap in the world ain't gonna fix it

Yep If you want a bigger and/or denser chorus, then either write the song so the there is an increased feeling of impact on the chorus, have the arrangement add that depth through overdubbing or both.

These things should hopefully come rather naturally to a songwriter or arranger/composer.

[dubrichie]

great question and great answers so far!

sorry, ive nothing better to add than what has gone before!

[TOFT]

Should be in the performance. Don't use a compressor on every track.

[j-madd]

So, with the song I linked, does anything specific stick out that could be done to fill out the chorus? After listening again, it feels like the guitars in the chorus need more meat and maybe the vocals could use a boost. Thanks again.

Justin

[drBill]

What it lacks is in the parts and the arrangement. A remix with EQ, level changes, compression or verb changes isn't going to make much of a difference. Sorry to be a broken record here...

bp

[Ben J]

KKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! @ 0dB

Why doesn't anyone like my choruses?

[allencollins]

If the chorus isn't big enough, write a better hook.
Adding another gtr track or stacking vocals is not going
to suddenly make a weak chorus a good chorus

not saying your chorus is weak since Ive never heard it.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Ben J

KKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! @ 0dB

Why doesn't anyone like my choruses?

Never said I didn't like it. I said a production "technique" wouldn't give you the lift you wanted. Think key change, new unexpected instrument, big vocal changeup, rhythmic shift, etc . Listen to songs that KILL you. Figure out why. If it was easy we'd all be living in Beverly Hills with Diane Warren. Now....do your homework!

[Studio 8o5]

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

Here's a simple, subliminal trick. Put a high, single note synth or string sound on the tonic and don't move it with the chord changes unless it clashes, then only move it a step or 1/2 step to avoid dissonance. This is the "soar button".


Use tons of delay so when it does do that 1/2 step move for the chord you get a nice s m e a r . . .

Fade out into the next verse.

That is actually a really good and simple trick.. I have done that alot as well. Someone else talked about different percussion such as bells or tambourine and shackers and things like that.. That is also excellent.. Don't try and overguess and over produce it though.. You will end up even worse than when you started alot of the times.. One more thing, Don't forget it also how the song is wrote as well that will determine what needs to be done. Atleast in my opinion.

[Empire Prod]

One little mixing trick is to ride the master fader up a little on the chorus and down in the verses. If the bridge is powerfull then I'll ride it somewhere between the two. If the bridge is mellow then I'll ride the master fader down and maybe ride the lead vocal up to make it more of a centerpiece. It's really all about arrangement though and more importantly having a chorus worth hearing in the first place.