Mics for a Songwriter

[MelOdeus]

Hi,

I tried to A/B some mics at the local stores but they never let me A/B all at once so here i am. I am assembling a small home studio in a house we rent so it is not acoustically treated.

I want principally to be able to record my acoustic guitars and Male and Female voices. (I'll record Violin / Sax but not a priority right now although if the same mics could work that would be great).

Music Style ranges from Folk, Pop to Rock.

So far i have:
Monitors: Dynaudio BM6A
Audio Interface: TC Konnekt 48

Budget: up to $1000 but of course the less i spend the better as this is a hobby :-)

What do you think of the following combinations?

CHOICE BUDGET:
- Vocals: Studio Projects B1, $119.99
- Guitars:
Shure SM81, $349.97
OR Studio Projects C4, $360.00
OR anything cheaper like the Shure SM57?
CHOICE MORE HIGH-END: (is it worth it?/will we hear a difference?)
- Vocals: Audio-Technica AT4050, $480.00
- Guitars: ??
CHOICE : MORE PERSONALITY??: (again worth it?)
- Studio Projects TB1, $299.99
- Studio Projects T3, $599.99
- BLUE Bluebird, $299.99
- BLUE Baby Bottle, $499.97
- Audio-Technica AT4047/SV, $549.97

I don't think that would fit into my budget but would you recommend to add a better pre-amp? What about the Studio Projects tube pre-amp?

Thanks in advance for your feedback

[peeder]

You want a vocal mic and then a stereo pair...because you want to be able to spread the guitar in stereo so it doesn't sit on the voice in the middle. Generally you want a stereo pair of SDCs (Small Diaphragm Condensers) with an LDC (Large...) for the voice. However, if you are recording both at once, isolation on the voice matters, and I often use a Beyer M500 ribbon mic. Having a mic that works on stage can help if you gig...and the stage mics have better isolation.

The various chinese (and russian) mics compete for who's on top in the lowend market and I don't really know what to advise. Out of my locker, I might pick the Apex 460 for the male LDC, the Karma k58 for the female LDC (both need to be retubed to sound good..ask a geek), and a pair of Oktavamod MC-012s or Avenson STO-2s for the stereo pair for my $1000.

[uncle duncan]

If you're singing, you want a mic that makes you sound good. Is your voice bright and harsh? Thick and muffled? Bright source = dark mic, dark source = bright mic. The 4050 is a good all-arounder. Another consideration is polar patterns. If you're recording acoustic guitar/vocal together, a figure 8 mic on the guitar and a figure 8 mic on the vocal gives you more separation, making it easier to get a good sound in the mix. The 4050 is multi-pattern.
(Aim the vocal mic up, the guitar mic down, so that they're at right angles to each other. You get maximum sound rejection at the sides of the figure 8 pattern, so you aim the front of the mic at the source, and make sure the side is aimed at what you don't want to hear.)

A 57 is useful on a lot of stuff. One of those KEL HM-2 or whatever they are would be a good 'dark' mic for bright sources. I don't think you'd have any trouble finding bright mics, since most of the cheap chinese-manufactured mics (like Studio Projects) are painfully bright.

The cascade fathead ribbon is supposed to be pretty good, as long as it's got a good transformer in it. Ribbon mics are useful for guitar amps, horns, bright sources. They're figure 8 pattern, but you can use that to your advantage, as noted above. They're also good on a bright acoustic guitar, where the sound is a little raggedy and harsh. The ribbon mic absorbs some of the transients, 'smoothing' the sound a bit.

I would consider the 4047 a character mic, not really a priority, especially since it's not multi-pattern. But a lot of folks really like that mic. It's considered 'dark' by many, but, in fact, it's got a bright top end. It's just that there's a little more midrange and low end, giving the illusion that it's 'dark'. Another mid-level 'sort-of-warm' mic is the CAD Trion 8000 tube mic. It's multi-pattern. Ever since I got it, my 4047's been sitting unused in a box.

The stereo pair issue is interesting. I've got two stereo pairs of small diaphram condensors, but never use them as stereo pairs. I mic in stereo whenever possible (or appropriate - an acoustic rhythm part that's going to be double-tracked and mixed hard left and right doesn't need a stereo micing setup) but usually end up with two different mics to complement the source. The bridge side and the neck side of a guitar give off different sound characteristics, and sometimes you pick your mic to match.

You might consider giving Warren a call at Front End Audio. He's a hands-on recording guy selling gear - a good combination.

[tINY]

For $1k....

You could get a pair of M179 (multi pattern, decent general purpose LDC).

And - A pair of AT 3031 or Pro37 (good budget SDC), The Studio Projects C4 pair would be good here too

And almost add a PR40 (good for vocals and strong instruments). This is gonna be a classic mic in a few years. Besides, everyone needs a dynamic mic.....



-tINY

[minus-sounds.com]

As you said it is a hobby for you, the TC pre amps would be ok for now.

Now my shot for about $1000. Buy them in this order:

First get a Portable Vocal Booth from here RealTraps - Portable Vocal Booth

Then Ribbons: 2x Cascade Fatheads for stereo recordings. Ribbons take a tone of EQ, so you could make them brighter if you need to. Also they would work great for your folk and rock works and they are kings for strings and horns. They work for vocals also. Go to the cascade site and listen.

Then a Dynamic: a Shure SM7 or a second hand Senn MD441. Main vocal mic that it could be used in many other places, especially the MD441.

Later when you will have some more money a LDC: Blue Bluebird will cover the clear, modern sound without been harsh, like most chinese mics. It stacks vocals very nice and, depending on the voice of course, it would be the first choice for female voices or as room mic for your guitar. Condensers pick up a lot of details in the room, so that's why is been left last. Still a very decent mic.

Please don't buy cheap stuff that would be of no use later, as they would cost you more when you are going to replace them with something decent.

[vernier]

58 into cassette recorder sounds natural.

[Beech]

If you're going to be recording yourself and you are the songwriter I would suggest that the more time you spend writing and recording songs and the less time spent on positioning mic's the better. The Rode NT4 is a fine sounding mic - stereo, and easy to place. Find a nice place in your room to record and off you go!

Try and audition one.

All the best!

[MelOdeus]

As these will be my first *real* mics i am surprised nobody recommends the Studio Projects B1? Any reason for that?

Am i really going to regret?

[peeder]

You can make music with virtually anything. Creating a truly compelling, immersive illusion is very hard. There isn't a penny wasted in a $1M studio that's built for doing so.

I'm not sure there's much to be won or lost short of that so don't sweat it so bad. If you like your Studio Projects mics, be happy with them.

[MelOdeus]

i don't particularly like them I am just trying to spend as little as possible. Trying to compromise. Thanks for your feedback.

[MelOdeus]

thanks for your input guys. I am doing this Blindfold Test:
Transom Tools: Transom Mic Shootout - Blindfold Test

Let me know if you know other tests like this.
The result promises to be interesting. I'll come back later.

[oldgreensock]

I would strongly consider the Heil PR-20 on vocals, and the Heil PR-40 for guitar.
Reasons:
1 they sound great! I love the PR-20 on my voice for recording or on stage.
2 they will also be quite useful on saxes, trumpets, and drums.
3 they are large diaphragm dynamic = no phantom power = additional durability.
4 you can use them for a live gig if you need to play out at the local cafe someday.
5 In my opinion these mics will become more renowned each and every year that passes, and therefor increase in value twenty years down the road. "Woah you have first addition PR-20 when they still came with the three windscreens!!!"

[stephent28]

Call Michael at Oktavamod and discuss your requirements. For $1000 he could get you fixed up with some good mics that would suit your needs.

[Charlie_M]

As a fellow hobbyist, I cant' say that I have a specific mic recommendation or even a set of well proven priorities on how to spend the $1k you've allocated.

I will say this though... from what I've seen, you might as well just go ahead and assume you're going to get the wrong thing. Once you assume that, you recognize the sanity of used gear. It means you can try it for a month or so (about the amount of time a hobbyist needs to really discover how it works for you) and if it doesn't work you can sell it without getting hurt very much, if at all, from the experience. And if it does turn out great, well then you picked up a good piece for somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 retail for a unit in good shape.

Also I have to say, this remark here:

Originally Posted by peeder

You can make music with virtually anything. Creating a truly compelling, immersive illusion is very hard.

... really resonates well with what I have seen so far in my short time in this home recording game (about a year). To me, the meaning is this: modest gear is plenty good enough to get your ideas down and gain some experience learning how to make them sound good. To make them sound amazing is gonna really cost you, whether you do it yourself or hire a top studio to do it. I've begun to suspect that when you sum it all up, it may actually be cheaper to hire a studio, but that kind of arrangement doesn't offer anything like the kind of flexibility and spontaneity that a hobbyist wants, I think. Also, as a hobbyist, the time you invest in learning is itself kinda fun so you can't really just fully weight that by the hourly rate and come up with a valid cost number.

Good luck.

Charlie

[ProducerBoy]

Oktavamod is unbelievable. Just got a MK-319 and two MK-012s back from M. Joly. They are incredible. They smoke my Baby Bottle on vocals and acoustic guitar. More than worth a look!

[MelOdeus]

I did the mics shoot-out test and this helped me sort things out.
I hope this is my last email about this topic for quite some times. So please don't hesitate to give me your feedback.

In the tests, I very much preferred:
B Sennheiser 421 $379.97
D Neumann TLM 103 $999.00
E Shure SM7 $349.97
H Rode NT-1 $229.95
K Schoeps P48 ???
Q AKG C-3000 $349.00
P Oktava 319 139 Euros = $205
A Studio Projects B1 $119.99
and did not like mics like Neumann U-87 and Audio Technica 4050!
This might talk about the inexperience of my ears :-) ?
I don't know how to describe what i did not like about the U-87 but i found the AT4050 too clean somewhat with no life.

So now for a vocal mic, i am now looking into the 421, SM7 and the Oktava 319. It seems i would be happy with any of them.
I am tempted to go with the SM7b or the Senn 421 as they get much more warm reviews than the 319.
Any feedback about Senn 421 vs SM7b vs Oktava 319 for Vocal?
The only drawbacks about each mics are:
- Shure SM7: has very low output, and needs a good quality preamp to drive it properly???
- Sennheiser 421: annoying/fragile stand adapter??
- Oktava 319: not consistent???

What Mic would you then recommend for acoustic guitar, should i go with a small condenser: like the SM81, AT4041 or the cheaper Oktava MK012 or CAD e70 or should i go again with a Dynamic mic like a SM57 or a Heil PR-40 or a pair of Studio Projects C4 ?

I am also tempted by the cheap Cascade FAT HEAD II to add a cheap different paintbrush to my tool/play box.

[phillysoulman]

If you have great songs,any decent mike will do.
If your songs are crap, the mike will not mean shit.
Save your money.

[Studio 8o5]

I would always recommend an Electro Voice RE20 in this situation. It can be very versatile for your situation I think.

[floydisbest]

I would hit up that Shure SM7b out of your choices. I've got both the 421 and the SM7B, and as long as you've got enough power behind the SM7, it will indeed be your best friend. Its built rock-solid and works for a variety of sources, especially ones that are a bit louder.

I just happen to also own a pair of Cascade Fatheads, and an AT4041 alsol. I would highly recommend the AT4041 for acoustic guitar, I've gone through several, and this is a very nice-price for very nice-sound. The Cascade Fatheads, on the other hand, I haven't really been able to find the best use for. They lack something in the upper-mid/highs that disagrees with me. I would get an SM57 while your at it though.

[deve]

Ribbons are very nice.

If I were to get only two mics on a budget for the singer/songwriter stuff, I would get an AT4050 (or a used AKG C414 B-ULS) and a Shure SM7b.

[corruptmary]

+1 bluebird! Everyone who comes into the store and tries the bluebird with more expensive mics, they still take the bluebird. Get a pair and they sound great with vocals and acoustic guitar. I agree with whoever said to stereo mic your acoustic guitar.

[SyncSailor]

If you are serious about songwriting, you better get a mic that you can throw.