Why do young people prefer "brighter" mixes !

[dreamsongs]

A few times a year I sit with some of the talent I work with to listen to new material they might be interested in. The age ranges from 16 to 25 year olds, mostly performers and musicians. We discuss songs, arrangements, mixes etc.

I always make 2 different mixes of most of my songs. One mix on the bright side and the other, what I think is the more balanced one. Thru the course of the afternoon and after listening to quite a few songs, most of them prefered the bright mixes. Even though I prefered the other ones myself.

Also, thru my travels, I've experienced this as well. Most listeners gravitate towards a slight brighter mix. I'm not sure why this is, maybe it translates better in sub-par systems or maybe it sounds more exciting to an untrained ear. To me, it's more ear fatiguing and harder to sit through. But that may be because I listen to music all day.

So the question I have to all the mixers out there - do you have more than one mix and if not, what is your final mix like ?

[allencollins]

youd think it would be the other way around.
Us old guys with ears shot crave more highs

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

maybe it sounds more exciting to an untrained ear

There it is.

I work with a TON of young bands and I think they usually prefer brighter mixes because 1. For some reason many of the CDs they like and/or bands they look up to have loud, bright, compressed CDS, and 2. The extra high end brings out the attack in the kick and snare, as well as extra detail in distorted guitar, reverb, and vocals.

I'm not convinced it's an untrained ear; it could just be personal preference. Or personal preference shaped by an untrained ear .

The bottom line though is that we shouldn't necessarily be making records for "trained" listeners, we should be making records for the people that are buying them, listening to them, and loving them. These bands' tastes will start to change as they mature and progress as musicians, as will their listeners' tastes. Do your job well and you'll be around to see it happen.

That's how things seem to me anyway,

Cory Spotts

[brightbyrd]

I think it's more about it sounding more like today's music - music they have grown up with.
Most modern pop music is overly bright in my opinion.

[river]

Could be they're mostly deaf from listening to iPods at excruciating levels.

[narcoman]

depends - do you find the brighter mixes irritating? If you do it'll most likely be because you have damaged hearing - normal as you get older......

[davet]

It seems to me that many people turn up the bass on their music systems. I'm just about the only person I know that doesn't crank up the loudness or bass on their hi-fi system. My wife does it in her car stereo and she's 44 years old. If you crank up the bass, then you need bright sounding mixes to cut through the mud.

I sat in a young co-workers car one day when he asked me to listen to some new music. Gads, the tweeters mounted in the dash just ripped my head off. When I mentioned this the guy just looked at me like I didn't have a clue.

I also experienced this after did a mix for a band I was in. The drummer invited everyone to his house for a first listen. When the CD started up the bass was so loud it was killing everything else. I checked the EQ on his stereo, the bass was on 10 and the loudness switch was engaged. I turned everything down and it sounded like I mixed it. The next CD to play was some modern rock band. It sounded thin, so the drummer cranked the bass up to 10 and said, "ah that's better".

When I worked in the Hi-Fi business it was all about bass. Big, stupid, cheap speakers were the norm. All they needed was bass. I guess that's just the way audio has always worked.

DaveT

[kadeemusic]

Originally Posted by river

Could be they're mostly deaf from listening to iPods at excruciating levels.

That was my thought. I don't think protecting their hearing is a big priority among younger kids. Those little ear-buds, besides being really uncomfortable, are stuffed directly into the ears, and they crank it up. They probably listen loud in their car too, which is a tight enclosed area. And if they play in a band, I doubt many of them are wearing earplugs, so all of this is damaging their hearing early on.

On a semi-related note, maybe this is one reason for the "loudness wars".

[miqer]

Like brightbird says.

It's a cultural thing.
Older guys grew up with vinyl... and if you listen a joni mitchell record and play a modern Mtv producion after it... there is soooo much more highs in the modern records.
They just got used to it. It's normal for them.

Remember Chinese traditional music. It's soooo weird (pjjjiiiong, djannngg), but they think it's normal.

It's programming of the brain while at a young age. (IMHO... or in my honest understanding)

M.

[kadeemusic]

Originally Posted by davet

I also experienced this after did a mix for a band I was in. The drummer invited everyone to his house for a first listen. When the CD started up the bass was so loud it was killing everything else. I checked the EQ on his stereo, the bass was on 10 and the loudness switch was engaged. I turned everything down and it sounded like I mixed it. The next CD to play was some modern rock band. It sounded thin, so the drummer cranked the bass up to 10 and said, "ah that's better".

I'm guessing if he's a drummer, he's probably lost half his hearing anyway.

[davet]

Originally Posted by kadeemusic

I'm guessing if he's a drummer, he's probably lost half his hearing anyway.

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Actually, his hearing was pretty good. He had me adding all these strange reverb tails to his cymbal rolls, sweeps that I could barely hear. He also wore ear plugs under his headphone monitors when we played live. He caught me using an expletive under my breath directed at him one day. His hearing was fine[/FONT]

[dreamsongs]

Well...I'm not deaf...yet ! Maybe soon though...

I think all these responses are valid, when I hear what they listen too and how it was mixed/mastered I cringe.

Also, the bass thing has some validity as well. You need lots of high freq to cut thru a heavy/loud bass line.

What surprises me is that some A&R and Publishers I deal with prefer music this way as well. That's frightening...

[soupking]

1) The bass in iPod earbuds is very minimal and most stuff is delivered these days in tiny speakers.

2) Additionally, I think it has something to do with age. The same way my tastes for certain vegetables or sugary foods has changed since I was younger, so has my taste in music, and therefore, my ear is probably more refined as well.

People of age have more refined taste or experience with art. NOT always, but on a survey I'd bet there is a curve. Somebody writing a story at 18 will be a lot more whiz bang than somebody who's 35 with kids and APR re-financing.

Experience is relative.

[CraigM]

I recorded some kids once and after sending them the mixes I recommended a few places that they might consider taking it to for mastering.
Their reply was along the lines of "No way dude, we just dumped it into iTunes, raised the volume and used the treble booster. It sounds awesome!"

[JMWS]

Why do young people prefer "brighter" mixes !

Because they sound better. (I´m not young by the way).

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by river

Could be they're mostly deaf from listening to iPods at excruciating levels.

As much as this sounds like kidding -- it is the first thing that occurred to me.

When I was a kid it was the old guys who liked a lot of treble.


But when you hear some of the contemporary youth market mixes it seems very clear that normal, undamaged ears would not want to be subjected to the harsh, scratchy, super-compressed mixes that are increasingly the norm in that market.


You know what these mixes sound like -- what you hear from a crappy hearing aid.

[heathen]

Taste matures with age.

[Long_Shaded_Eye]

Hi,

I like cold / bright mix a lot.
I do mostly hard core / indie stuff and I feel that mixes are more exiting with more high in them (Thursday , Poison The Well ...). I aslo agree it's a cultural choice.

BUT it also depend on what kind of music you make. I wouldn't make this choice for jazz or heavy metal or even rock of course.

/Nick.

[Simpleton]

I think because brighter mixes, when compared to duller mixes of the same song, have the illusion of having a better quality. We all know how when you EQ something for an hour and it sounds normal and when you take a break and come back you realize it has way too much EQ! It's the same with this. If you play the bright mix, even if it really is too bright, it will sound better (at least to untrained ears who don't know better) than the same one less bright. It's a relativistic thing. If you didn't give them the two options to begin with, you wouldn't have a problem, .

In fact, if you take the dull mix of these two, and make another mix duller than that one and play them both for the band (and tell them they are the same mixes as before), then I bet they will choose the first dull mix (the one they originally didn't like) over the new one. It's just psychology.

[vernier]

Its always been that way (and not just younger people) ..the common listener that doesn't know anything, which is 99% of people, likes more top end, or perceived top end.

These 99% also like more salt on their chips and more sugar coating on their breakfast cereal.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by vernier

These 99% also like more salt on their chips and more sugar coating on their breakfast cereal.

ha, ha...you may be right !

I also think it has to do with the genre. Like the kid who likes alternative and pop likes it brighter than normal. The kid who likes rock wants ear piercing guitars. The r&b and hip hop crowd can't get enough bass and so on...

I've been looking for a good eq to add highs in certain tracks but no matter what you use, there's a limit where after that it just gets harsh no matter what you use.

I can't imagine listening to a whole album like that...

[Tony Shepperd]

Okay... just read this all the way through before burning me in effigy.

This thread is really interesting to me.
3 of the people on this thread are major anti Pro Tools/Mix ITB people.
MAJOR!

The truth of it all is: that the sound of making records has changed.
The OTB warm and fuzzy almost dark sound is not what this new generation of kids are listening to.

The sound of most popular records today is a little edgier than in the past.
It's the reason so many of us who switched to ITB have been saying for a while that we are getting the results we need from ITB.
The sound of the business has changed. I don't know if it's forever, but for the foreseeable future, it's your new reality.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

Okay... just read this all the way through before burning me in effigy.

This thread is really interesting to me.
3 of the people on this thread are major anti Pro Tools/Mix ITB people.
MAJOR!

The truth of it all is: that the sound of making records has changed.
The OTB warm and fuzzy almost dark sound is not what this new generation of kids are listening to.

The sound of most popular records today is a little edgier than in the past.
It's the reason so many of us who switched to ITB have been saying for a while that we are getting the results we need from ITB.
The sound of the business has changed. I don't know if it's forever, but for the foreseeable future, it's your new reality.

But Tony...

Are you saying that all these changes are happening by choice, as in mixers/mastering places wanting to make brighter mixes or by evolution as in the onset and awakening of the digital era...

Meaning - "well from now on this is how it will sound so deal with it" ?

[Tony Shepperd]

No, not by choice.
I don't think someone is saying go this direction, make mixes brighter.
But it is happening.

Technology is definitely moving in a sonically different direction than it was even 5 years ago.
And no, I don't think you can unwind the sonic hands of time.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

No, not by choice.
I don't think someone is saying go this direction, make mixes brighter.
But it is happening.

Technology is definitely moving in a sonically different direction than it was even 5 years ago.
And yes, I don't think you can unwind the sonic hands of time.

Then how do we explain this craving of 70's music and songs that had "that vibe" ?

It seems people are adjusting to this "new sound" but don't really like it, especially when comparing recordings from that era...

[Matteran]

It's probably a perceptual loudness thing also. Brighter usually sounds louder... or at least more peircing.

When I'm mastering a project and I A/B the difference with and without plug-ins, the client always goes "That sounds so much louder, it's awesome!" so anything that makes it perceptually louder, usually makes people think it's better.

For certain things it does sound better though...

[Tony Shepperd]

I don't think a craving (as you put it) for an era equates to wanting to reproduce that era entirely.
People dig the vibe of an era and then want to make it their own, put their musical spin on it.
If they didn't, labels would just re-release albums from the 70's with new vocals on them.

[MarkRB]

Club music has got to come around again some time soon.
Although with everyone on 'buds' how is that gonna work?

"Full frequency recordings going all the way down to 800Hz"

Once the iPod generation is deaf it may come full circle with clubs full of people that can't hear over 4kHz.

[Hamburg58]

I'm a young guy, only 22. I too had this syndrome of 'bright' mixes. That problem was fixed the very first time i sent something to a mastering house. The guy gave me a call and said, " I'm sending this back because one ,I don't want you to be unhappy with the master, and two this will be something you will thank me for, for the rest of your life." And then he said " go back to your mixes, kill all of the EQ's on everything and start from scratch. Think really hard about what you do and don't need that mastering won't do for you in the end. He said make 3 mixes. The one you just gave me, the ones with EQ totally flat, and the one that you thought about and tell me which one you really think would be most beneficial?"

And surely enough, the mix where i went back and actually thought about what I was EQ'ing instead of going into a craze of everything needs more treble, It came out to be fantastic...It's a really hard thing mentally for a lot of younger engineers i think simply because that's what we're born into. Hi Fi Recordings. I'm sure that if we had been born in the 50's, our perspective would be much more accurate.

Still, that Hi Fi Recording idea keeps up with the times...Is it really the best sound?
That's apples and pears..... But it's definitely good to step back and say to yourself, do I really need a 10 DB boost of 12K on this vocal? I say let the vocal "speak" for itself, use good pre's, leave it alone! Same with guitars. If you want more treble, get an amp tone you like with your ears! Not your headphones. The ear is the best judge of too many highs, not "pop culture." Just my 22 years of old age 2 cents

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

I don't think a craving (as you put it) for an era equates to wanting to reproduce that era entirely.
People dig the vibe of an era and then want to make it their own, put their musical spin on it.
If they didn't, labels would just re-release albums from the 70's with new vocals on them.

But don't you think that all this debate about "analog" and ITB vs OTB has been installed for a reason.

I mean, if digital hadn't come along, we'd all be listening to music the way it always was. There'd be nothing to argue about.

I think many people still are convinced that "that sound" was better, from a sonic point of view. And now, we all have to adjust our taste because Pro Tools came along.

And I mix ITB too by the way. I haven't done a mix OTB in over 4 years.